Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

From what I can gather, there are a few folks on this forum that shoot a .280 AI. I am looking at getting some ammo ready for my new rifle, which should be done in a couple of weeks.

As mentioned in other related threads, Nosler is now making brass in .280 AI, and it already has the 40-deg shoulder. It's not cheap, over a buck a piece, but I will buy some. I am also thinking about fire-forming some of my own brass. What good is owning a wildcat if you don't fully experience the entire tinkering process, right? Does anyone have a good fire-forming load or technique they wish to share?

Or perhaps, rather than buying two sets of dies - both .280 Rem to make the initial fire forming loads and a set of .280 AI dies - should just buy a bunch of .280 factory ammo and get my fire-formed brass that way? Any thoughts?

After the fire-forming is done, what powder(s) does the .280 AI prefer? Have any favorite powders you wish to share?

Thanks for the help.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Get your hands on some .280 Rem. Ackley Improved (40 degree shoulder) dies.

.280 Remington standard cases.

Use a fast powder like IMR 4895 with a light load using standard .280 Rem. data.

Use a 160 gr. or 175 gr. inexpensive bullet, so you can seat the bullet in contact with the lands.

Take your rounds to the range, and fire-form them.

Next time you load these cases use .280 Ackley improved data.

Good luck.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Thanks. I picked up some stuff last night...

100 Remington cases (I prefer Winchester, but their .280's are nickel plated)
1 pound IMR 4895 (plan on using 40 grains to fireform)
1 box Hornady 154gr Interlocks
2 - 50 round ammo boxes


I still need to order the AI dies.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan:

I certainly hope you plan on fireforming some of your own brass....what good is the gun if you aren't going to shoot it!

Seriously, save your money, don't buy brass for a $1 a pop (unless its NE calibers, then buy all you can and resell!).

Buy whatever brand ammo (loaded, in normal 280) you want to use. IE: If you want to load in Rem Cases, buy some inexpensive Rem Core Lokts.

Everytime you fire one of those loaded rounds, it comes out fireformed to YOUR exact chamber. Sort of like a magic trick what?

Not all AI chambers are EXACTLY alike. Which is why I have always been told by my smith not to shoot ammo fire-formed in a gun other than mine. Just passing along what I do, and what I have heard.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

My fire form load is 22 gr. of H-110 behind a cheap 150 grain bullet - buy them in bulk from Midway. Any bullet weight will work, just make sure the charge is high enough to give a crisp angle to the shoulder juncture. I never have been real big on using cotton balls and/or corn meal to fire form.

Make sure the headspace is set properly - so that a virgin brass case or factory round chambers with a little "umph" on closing the bolt. Otherwise, the firing pin can move the case forward a short distance before the pressure blows out the body and shoulder. This will cause the case to weaken at the web and separate after a few firings. Cure is to simply set the barrel back a little - usually about .006 to .008 if the gunsmith tried to headspace it with standard .280 go/no go gauges.

The powder to use, once you get casesfire formed,is RL 22.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

IMR4895 and a bullet long enough to be seated well into the lands on our rifle. If you seat the bullet into the lands the case will be held tight to the bolt face and not allow stretching in the web. The 280 AI is an awesome cartridge.

A note on fireforming factory ammo is look at the ammo and see how they are crimped. Remington puts an awful crimp on their factory loads and if you trim your case necks back to remove the crimp the neck will be shortened quite a bit. With the availability of buying the Nosler brass I would go that route for the convenience and not having to form the brass and consume the time. As for forming factory ammo look at the Norma ammo for the 280 there is no horrible crimp and the brass is awesome. But you will have more than a dollar in each case. So as I said I would go with the Nosler Brass.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Having to seat a bullet out into the lands, to avoid weakening theweb,is a "rag for a missing gas cap"mitigation for a gun that is not headspaced properly.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan,

First, what part of Alaska are you in? I lived in Anchorage for awhile. I was ther for the Good Friday quake. That was a humdinger. I left about 3 weeks later. What did they ever do about 4th St?

Back to your question. I made my cases out of .270 Win cases. Using a .30-06 full length sizing die with a tapered expander button. The necks expanded easily. Then using the .280 AI sizing dieI worked on sizing the necks and checking to see if the case would chamber. I used the hump that was raised in the case neck as an artifical shoulder. I sized enough of the neck so the case would chamber with some effort required to close the bolt. Using the .270 case gave me a longer neck that I could trim as I wanted too. It also meant that I could use brass cases rather than nickled cases. I liked H-4350 for the lighter bullets, say 130 and lower. With the 140 grain and heaver, H-4831 was the way to go. CCI #200 worked great with both powders. However, if you're going to work uo loads fo winter hunting, I think I"d use CCI #250 with both powders.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Bob, I live in Anchorage. Fourth Street is alive and well. The '64 quake was long before my time, but I have seen pictures of the damage caused by the quake. We've been through a few quakes since moving here in 2001, but I just can't imagine experiencing something of that magnitude.

Thanks for the tips. I usually have IMR4350 on hand for my .30-06, so I will try it with some 120gr Balistic Tips. I will probably try both IMR4831 (or H4831) and RL-22 for the heavier bullets. When I find a powder that works well, I will buy a big can of it.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan,

I once went caribou hunting between Christmas and New Year above the old sheep mountain lodge. It was cold. Close to -30 degrees. I got up on a pair of dandy bulls and couldn't hit them from 150 yards with a '06 that I'd taken everything with. I found that my zero was close to 4' high and left from where I had zero the rifle that August. When the weather warmed up my point of impact went right back to where it had been. I was pretty new too extreme cold weather hunting and the effect it could have on your rifle. For years the only solution was to zero my rifle in the temperature in which I'd be hunting. About seven years ago, Hodgdon brought out their Extreme line of powders. Now I didn't test anything at -30 degrees, but I did test in temperatures in the low teens up to the low 100s degrees and that Extreme powder works. No change in zero, velocity or accuracy. I've gotten to the point that I only use Hodgdon extruded powders.

My oldest son was born in the territory of Alaska and the oldest daughter was born in the state of Alaska. To top it off, a year later I was in Hawaii on business when they became a state. My stay in Alaska in '64 was the last time I was there. Shame, I kind of always wanted to go back again.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

To all you AI shooters out there. I learned something last night, and I would like to know if it is true. I thought the AI improvements were shoulder improvements only? I had a fellow tell me last night that on the 22-250 AI- not only was the shoulder changed, but the body taper was also changed. Is that true? The same fellow told me that 22-250 case capacity was increased by 20%-I find that hard to believe. Does anyone know if that 20% figure is true? Is the body taper affected on the 280AI? Tom.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

As far as I know, both the body taper and shoulder are changed wtih all of the "improved" designs.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

20% might be a bit of stretch. But your friend is right - all the ackley improved calibers have minimum body taper and most have a 40 degree shoulder. This is generally good for 150 fps or more increase in velocity.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

BigBob 30-06---
Thanks for explaining the use of the .270 casings. I was about to do that, as that's exactly how I'd been doing it years ago to make .280 cases when they were scarce........

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Pawildman,

Always glad to help.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Although I have never tried necking up .270 cases, this sounds like a good procedure. At least, unless you also own a .270 Ackley Improved :)

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Talked to my gunsmith today. I asked him about headspacing. He said he uses the regular .280 Rem "go" gauge as a "no-go" gauge for the improved, and he has a special "go" gauge he made. It should take some effort to close the bolt on factory ammo, in order to hold the brass against the bolt face for fire-forming. Like you were referring to, Roskoe, bullet seating depth shouldn't matter.

The rifle should be done next week. I plan to use lightweight Talley rings, and a 3.5-10x Leupold VX3 with the B&C reticle. The range I usually go to closes for the month of December, so I may have to wait a while to shoot it. There's another range, further out of town, but I rarely go there. I may see if they're open.

BigBob, if you ever find yourself making a return trip to Alaska, please look me up. I'd be happy to take you out halibut fishing.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan,

Thank you for the offer of fishing. Due to health reasons, I doubt if I'll ever make it to the north country again. Ah, but thanks for the memories. I get my Alaska fix nowadays by reading Robert W. Service. There are parts of "Dan McGrew" that I think I have camped in exactly the same places.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Just picked up the rifle yesterday. It seems to be headspaced perfectly - it takes a little umph to close the bolt on a resized & empty regular .280 case. I put together some loads for fireforming last night. I need to slap a temporary scope on rifle, and I will be set for shooting this weekend. I plan to use the fireforming session to break in the barrel (regular cleaning during the course of fire) and hope to get into some real load development soon. I am anxious to see what this baby can do. :D

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan,

Thanks for the up date. Please keep us posted.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Earlier in the week, I quickly threw together some fire-form loads. I didn't spend a lot of time to make them exact - I measured the powder charges to within a grain or so. I figured that was close enough for fire-forming purposes.

I shot the new rifle yesterday, and I am VERY impressed. I shot several groups with my fire-form loads that put all five shots touching each other at 100 yards. If this thing shoots that well with these loads, I can only imagine how it's going to shoot with carefully crafted .280 AI handloads. I think this rifle is a winner! :D

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

This is very promising.I know six or seven folks who have .280 Ackley Improved's. Although they are all loading itright at the 7 Rem Mag performance level, I don't know a one of them who would have the slightest interest intrading their .280 AI for a 7 Rem Mag.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

I personally think the .280 AI is a much funner prospect than the 7mm Mag, plus, you can load the .280 AI to 7mm Mag performance levels.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan,

That rifle sounds like a real winner. Now thw real fun begins, along with the learning experience.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan- I own a .280AI which I had built on a 1943 98Mauser action with a shilen bbl at 26". Timney trigger and a McMillan light weight stock.
I called RCBS and had them make me .280 AI neck sizer dies.
Since no one around me could answer AI questions about making brass, I did the next best thing and bought a box of Remington .280 Corlokt and fireformed them at the range.
I then neck sized them and reloaded them with 140 gr Nosler Bal Tips over 60 grains of IMR4831 which proved to be very accurate at 100yds. Groups size averages were .77 " and I managed one or two to be a bit below that.
It is my understanding that the AI yields about 10% more, not 20 as someone said earlier. I could be wrong, but I purchased P.O.ACkley's book
"Handbook for shooters and reloaders" Vol.1. 1962 copyright; reprinted in 1998. Found the book on Amazon.com. There are many valuable comments by Mr. Ackley and in this book you can learn much about all the AI's.
I was thinking of selling my .280 AI since I don't shoot it much. You guys are making me think I should hold on to it! I don't even have all 20 of the rem factory loads shot up yet! Go figure!!!!! Good luck with your new rifle. I hope it brings you much pleasure.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

A tidbit for my friends on HN. If you are wasting powder, bullets and barrel life on fireforming please read this: 1. Prime the mother case. 2. Load 11 grs bullseye or comparible pistol powder in the case. 3. Fill with cream of wheat on top of the base of the neck. 4. Roll a 22 patch and pack it into the neck of the case. 5. Fire the rifle, muzzle pointed down and out of harms way. 6. Open the bolt and extract a perfect fireformed case.

Cheap as no bullet is used, saves your expensive new barrel and it makes a perfect new Ackley or whatever brass. I have been doing this for a number of years and it works like a charm. This is not a joke or prank! It works! Try it and thank me later. :DRegards, Rick.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Hello Roskoe. I agree, however, you really have to push the 280AI to achieve 7Mag performance. Close, but no cigar. The beauty of the 280 AI is that it uses less powder for nearly the same performance. Having said that, the 7Mag is still king IMHO until you trump it with the STW. The 7Mag is a proven cross canyon Elk cartridge that will last a lifetime......do not underestimate this cartridge! If a fellow just shoots hunting loads then the 280Rem is great....otherwise the 7Mag has the competitive edge IMHO.

The same comparison can be made with the '06AI vs the Whinney, the 257AI vs the 25-06, the 25-06AI vs the 257WBY, the 6.5-06AI and the 264 Win mag and on and on. We could discuss the merits of all these and never arrive at a perfect conclusion.......but, the AI's are easier on throats/barrels, easy to make and way more fun than their bigger cousins! Regards, Rick.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Hello Ridge Runner. You are the first person I have ever run into on various forums that have done this procedure. Yes, the barrel gets hot. I load 5 rounds at a time and shoot them....by the time I've loaded another 5 rounds, the barrel has cooled......great point.....you wouldn't want to load 50 of them and then start fireforming without a break. Never tried TP but it's cheaper than patches! Great post! Regards, Rick.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

It's easy. Seat the bullets into the lands to keep the case head against the bolt face. Use medium weight bulletswith just aboveminimum charge of fast burning powder. I think my old load was 41 grs of IMR 4031 with 140 gr Pro Hunters. Added bonus....It was a damned accurate load.
I always annealedthe casesprior to fire forming. Now I just buy Nosler brass.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Rick - I wasn't talking about loading the .280 to the exact fps a 7 Mag can reach at the same pressure; just the same "level" of performance bracket. A maximum load in the 280 AI is generally about the same fps as a factory 7 Rem Mag load.

Of course, playing the devil's advocate . . . . I could make the arguement to just get the 7 Rem Mag and then down load it to .280Rem or even 7MM-08 levels, if you want something that doesn't kick much or don't need that level of performance for deer in heavy cover. I doing this right now, with a Rem 700 I picked up real reasonable over the summer, for my 13 year old. He was using a 7MM-08 last year. Can't tell the difference between that and the 7 Mag loaded to a slightlyhigher performance level (160 gr. bullet at 2750). Over the years, I'll up the powder charge a little at a time until we get to full throttle. Right now, he is enjoying the status he gets among other hunters by being able to shoot the "big 7" at his tender age :).

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

pawildman,

I'm glad to hear that I could heil. Please excuse the delay in getting back to you, but I've been fighting some health issues and don't get to spend as much time on the PC as I would like to.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Dan,

Halibut fishing! Believe me, if there was anyway, I'd be there. It's a heck of a thought though. Thank you.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Bubba method: Heat up the case to cherry red, chamber it, stick air compressor nozzle in muzzle.

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

:D:D:D:D:D

RE: Fire-Forming .280 Improved
 

Yeah it's funny but I actually had a knucklehead ask me if he could do that. "Sure" I said. Like he actually had or ever will have a wildcat gun.