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Velocity VS. Accuracy
Heres my question. I recently purchased a Browning A-bolt in a 243wssm. I finally got some loads ready. Im going with a 85 grn Nos PT and at max load with Rel 19the gun shot right over a .5" group but when I went 2 grains over it shot about an inch group.
My question is would you rather have the xtra speed or the accuracy. This is for whitetails and I have a 3x9x40 VX II for now. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Duck - My question to you is - If you already loaded to Max as stated in you manual and shot at just over .5", why would you want to juice your load up more? Most shooters would drool over a .5" group (at 100 yds I assume). But my answer to you is - remembering a conversation with a bowhunter about arrow speed - It don't matter how fast your arrow is going if you miss. So IMO, I would tell you to drop back down to your previous load and be happy. What you're gaining in velocity isn't going to matter that much to a deer anyway.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
ORIGINAL: Duckbutter48 Heres my question. I recently purchased a Browning A-bolt in a 243wssm. I finally got some loads ready. Im going with a 85 grn Nos PT and at max load with Rel 19the gun shot right over a .5" group but when I went 2 grains over it shot about an inch group. My question is would you rather have the xtra speed or the accuracy. This is for whitetails and I have a 3x9x40 VX II for now. 1 MOA is plenty accurate enough for deer hunting-most deer hunters are settling for a lot less!! So, IF your case life is acceptable at the higher load level, use it! |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
There is a reason that max loads are published. You would do well to pay attention to them.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
ORIGINAL: Pawildman There is a reason that max loads are published. You would do well to pay attention to them. But it is also true that all rifles are individuals, and what proves to be a maximum load in one may be quite mild in another, and vice-versa! A load which proves to be maximum in the rifle which was used to develop the loads published in any given manual is just that-maximum in that rifle. This does NOT relieve the handloader from testing worked-uploads in his/her own rifle to ensure that the loads listed as maximum are not OVER MAXIMUM in that person's rifle!! In addition, just because a load is labelled "MAXIMUM" in some manual does NOT mean it is MAX. in yours!! For example, I have a .30/'06 underbarrel on my Heym O/U combination gun, and a Ruger No. 1 in .30/'06. Boththese guns will handle a pretty warm 200-grain load without a hitch. But I cannot shoot this load in my .30/'06 TCR barrel-it will not stand it! Extraction is unacceptable, and primers areextruded into the firing pin hole. So this load is OVER MAX. in the TCR, and under MAX in the other two...... and so it goes! |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Accuracy. with the right bullet for the game your hunting.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
For me, I would actually get a deer bullet first like something over 100gr. And tougher. Second, its near to impossible tonote the differencebetweeen .7MOA and 1MOA unless you do this consistently like 3 time out of three. I know a bunch of people tell me thier gun is a .5MOA and I go out and all the sudden its a 1.5MOA. Lots of varibles. So to answer you question, I would keep the baseline a little more in the realm of reality like 1MOA being your goal. When it goes outside of that I would adjust the load accordingly.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Well I went from 2 grains under max to 2 grains over and loaded 3 different 4shot groups. I planned on shooting all 3 regardless of outcome of groups unless the max load looked funky.
I checked for pressure signs and there were none. Pawildman Ive been loading enough to work up beyond max if everything looks ok but thx for the concern. I was talking it over with my bud about which is better the accuracy or the velocity while we were shooting. I dont care much about case life, they arent that expensive and Id rather havethe inch group with more velocity but I'm usually am the oddball on things, so I figured Id bring it up on here. I will get the Chrony out and see what Im actually gaining. I figure a 2" group at 100 is fine for deer hunting so an inch is plenty good enough. My goal will be to get the overmax load down to that .5" group and then not worry about it. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Well, sounds as if you had your mind made up before asking. You got it all figured out.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
You know its funny Nosler thinks it a perfect bullet for deer hunting when I called them. They told me thats what it was designed for. Just becausesome thinkyou need an atom bomb to kill a deer doesnt mean its correct.I haveplenty of confidence and many seasons with full freezers to know this is more then enough bullet for whitetail.
Bigcountry didnt you shoota deerwith a monster 45-70 only to lose it as it ran off and some other guy shot it and claimed it maybe you should switch to a 50bmg since that guns not enough for you. I'll stick to what I know and I havent had one run off and some other fool claim it. Its a simple question about speed or accuracy not what you think a hunting bullet should be. There arent too many bullets tougher then a Partition in my mind for a 243 caliber. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Yea it ran 12 yards. Like I said, there ain't no reason for you to ask questions. You got it all figured out. Your what we have been waiting for on the reloading page. Your vast knowledge is just unbelieveable.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
12 Yards??? It ran 12 yards and some other guy shot and claimed the deer. What do you share your treestand with the other guy, how close do you hunt?. I think your full of crap.
I ask a simple ? and you try and turn the discussion about hunting bullets. I dont know it all thats why I ask questions obviously Im wasting everyone elses time and should just call you. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
But it is also true that all rifles are individuals, and what proves to be a maximum load in one may be quite mild in another, and vice-versa! A load which proves to be maximum in the rifle which was used to develop the loads published in any given manual is just that-maximum in that rifle. This does NOT relieve the handloader from testing worked-up loads in his/her own rifle to ensure that the loads listed as maximum are not OVER MAXIMUM in that person's rifle!! In addition, just because a load is labelled "MAXIMUM" in some manual does NOT mean it is MAX. in yours!! For example, I have a .30/'06 underbarrel on my Heym O/U combination gun, and a Ruger No. 1 in .30/'06. Both these guns will handle a pretty warm 200-grain load without a hitch. But I cannot shoot this load in my .30/'06 TCR barrel-it will not stand it! Extraction is unacceptable, and primers are extruded into the firing pin hole. So this load is OVER MAX. in the TCR, and under MAX in the other two...... and so it goes! Duck, You may wanna play with your seating depth. I assume your rifle has been accurized? Barrel floated, action bedded, and trigger adjusted? Remember, listed maximun overall length may NOT be what your rifle wants. Most of my rifles like their bullets seated out more than SAAMI suggested overall length. Oddly, my .243 doesnt. It has a smallish chamber. And by the way, I would never setlle for a .243 that shoots more than .75" at 100 yards. It should do much better. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
ORIGINAL: Duckbutter48 12 Yards??? It ran 12 yards and some other guy shot and claimed the deer. What do you share your treestand with the other guy, how close do you hunt?. I think your full of crap. I ask a simple ? and you try and turn the discussion about hunting bullets. I dont know it all thats why I ask questions obviously Im wasting everyone elses time and should just call you. I answered you question. But suggested you find another bullet.You refuted. And earlierbascially come back and tell everyone, you knew what you were doing and didn't need any advise about things like max loadings cause you big expert. But I know what it is, your just testing us?;) |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
The A-bolts comewith barrel floatedandI purchased a 1-2lb spring form Brownels for it, so it should be good with that.
I think thats a good idea. Im at 2.183 and COL is at 2.200(I think I remember thatright)so I'm going ot seat it out to max to start. I read so much about feeding probs on the WSSMs that I didnt want to seat it to far out at first. Ive had no probs whatsoever so that may have only been the 223s or just some hogwash. These are just the first handloads I put through it. I shot some 100 Win P.P. factory stuff to breakin and site it in. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Ok whatever you say. I thanked him for his post concerning max loads and think most people would agree that going over is common knowledge like was previously posted.
I dont understand when you say we and us. Its just you I think is full of crap and just wants to read his own rants and goes off ontangents no one asked about. Everyone else seems pretty helpful. I liked it better when you didnt respond to my posts. I have some other ?'s about loading can I have your phone # so I can call and get all the answers. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
I think thats a good idea. Im at 2.183 and COL is at 2.200(I think I remember that right) so I'm going ot seat it out to max to start. I read so much about feeding probs on the WSSMs that I didnt want to seat it to far out at first. Ive had no probs whatsoever so that may have only been the 223s or just some hogwash. These are just the first handloads I put through it. I shot some 100 Win P.P. factory stuff to breakin and site it in. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
ORIGINAL: Duckbutter48 I have some other ?'s about loading can I have your phone # so I can call and get all the answers. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Awesome, do you giveinvestment advice as wellor are you only an expert at Reloading. I could really useyour expertise inother aspects of life. I would call my broker at Merill Lynch but what would he know.
Next time I wont waste time calling Nosler and asking them about bullets for deer, what could they know compared to what you have learned. Im going to call them back and tell them they are wrong about their bullets. Maybe I could pass your address to them, Im sure they would want to send you a thank you letter for correcting thier mistakes. Im done making comments to you and wasting everyone else's time. Funny you tell me Im aknow it all but even when a bullet maker disagrees with your view on bullets you still just dont get it. Maybe its not everyone else thats bullheaded and thinks they know it all. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Well, all that is little wierd. But par for the course. I would say stick with Merrill, but all those guys are crooks anyway IMO.
Hey man, you asked, I just answered. Sorry I hurt your feelings. Don't worry, there there, it will be ok. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
those big slow moving bullets like 45-70 just dont compare to the higher velocity rounds with bullets matched to the task like 270 or 243 for deer. ive shot a deer with a .458 win. mag. for gods sake and it still ran, does that mean it was inadequite ? i say NO! but a 270 with a 130 graincore lokt will almost always drop them in their tracks everytime. that deer bigcountry shot with the 45-70 would have soon expired soon as did the one i shot with the 458. yea i know theres a big energy difference between a 458 and a 45-70 but they reacte the same on deer. they are plenty of gun, but just dont deliver the energy effectivly. to answer everbodys question, yea a normal mortal can shoot a 458 and walk away without a broken arm, the ppl at the local gun club had a hard time thinking so . anyway a person just has to pick a cartridge that will deliver the energy more effectivly than a 45-70 or 458.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
To start with,I would notbasethe accuracy of a load basedon one group at each powder charge.I test at least a few groups of the loads that show potential before judging the loads accuracy.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
ORIGINAL: bigmatty65 those big slow moving bullets like 45-70 just dont compare to the higher velocity rounds with bullets matched to the task like 270 or 243 for deer. ive shot a deer with a .458 win. mag. for gods sake and it still ran, does that mean it was inadequite ? i say NO! but a 270 with a 130 graincore lokt will almost always drop them in their tracks everytime. that deer bigcountry shot with the 45-70 would have soon expired soon as did the one i shot with the 458. yea i know theres a big energy difference between a 458 and a 45-70 but they reacte the same on deer. they are plenty of gun, but just dont deliver the energy effectivly. to answer everbodys question, yea a normal mortal can shoot a 458 and walk away without a broken arm, the ppl at the local gun club had a hard time thinking so . anyway a person just has to pick a cartridge that will deliver the energy more effectivly than a 45-70 or 458. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
sjumper Ive never triedthat. I usually try 3 or 4 dif powder loads with the bullet I like and usuallyits a pretty obivious between the difference in the groups accuracy and velocity differences on the chrony. Then I work on where I have the bullet seated and shoot many groups from there. If 2 or 3 powders are close I usually go with the fastest load.
Once I finally mess around some more and get the bullet seated where I like, then I usually re-shoot some groups at different usually longer yardages to see what it can do. I usually shoot whatever load I decide a bunch of times on different days and for the most part this has worked for me. Do you mean try the exact same load on the same day just back to back in different 4 shot(orhowervermany)groups or keep shooting the same load over and over at same target. I understand that a good group one day does mean the same load will be a good group the next day. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
No, he means shoot 3 to 4 groups of say 49gr (just an example, 3-4 of 50gr, 3-4 groups of 51gr, and take the average of the groups to tell the real story. Not just one group.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
When i said the 270 was dropping the deer in their track i was using warm hand loads and taking only shots that were almost always perfectly broadside (yea i knowthat dosent exist, but anyway). the deer would jump up in the air when hit with a heart shot and with lung shot most would simply stagger a few steps and fall over. the monster buck ( 8 pointer) i shot with the 458 ran like a bat out of hell for about 50 yards in the alders and hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. so much for the more energy the better . i now know better and will stick with a 270, 30-06, 243 or the like
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Well, my factory coreloks were kicking out at 3000fps. A hot, I mean hot handload for a 270 with 130gr is 3100fps is the best most can do. So are you saying that 100fps is what made yours drop in thier tracks?
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Editted post.
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Its not a realgood idea to ask for help when you already know the answer and then jumping on someone for bringing it to light. You do this enough and your questions will not be touched by anyone. You asked, they tried to help......
Theres tons of experience here, you'd do well not to offend them as you may need them later when you ARENT sure what you want to do. Let me also add... After killing over 40 deer with a 270..everyone using 130's of some brand or configuration but most in the Fed Hi-Shok variety that I can recall less than 5 going straight down no matter where they were hit. There is NO Hammer of Thor!! Nothing will drop deer where they stand everytime... Closest I ever came top dropping them where they stood consistently was with 180 gr rn Winchester power points out of a 742. I also killed 5 with a 7-08 this year using 140 gr core lokts and a whopping one of them dropped where it was.....and that was because it was bedded down. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
ORIGINAL: Doe Dumper Its not a realgood idea to ask for help when you already know the answer and then jumping on someone for bringing it to light. You do this enough and your questions will not be touched by anyone. You asked, they tried to help...... Theres tons of experience here, you'd do well not to offend them as you may need them later when you ARENT sure what you want to do. Let me also add... After killing over 40 deer with a 270..everyone using 130's of some brand or configuration but most in the Fed Hi-Shok variety that I can recall less than 5 going straight down no matter where they were hit. There is NO Hammer of Thor!! Nothing will drop deer where they stand everytime... Closest I ever came top dropping them where they stood consistently was with 180 gr rn Winchester power points out of a 742. Doe Dumper you are correct and Im sorry if I offended you by posting this I forget others will read this. Maybe I should ask clearer questions to get the answers Im looking for. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Im with you doe dumper This was brought up on another thread I want to see someone drop every deer they shoot in their tracks aint giong to happen I shoot a 300 rum and cant do it and every shot was in the vitals but one in the neck that one fell overI shot one thruogh both shoulders and still didnt far over I will never make that shot again do to damage of meat
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
IMHO, a lot of people think that the higher vel. means more accuracy! wrong! vangunsmith
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RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Now, see when I first started reloading, I had the assumptions that lower velocity meant better accuracy. That was a long time ago when I believed every word from a remington drop chart before the internet came along.
I guess I got that because my first thing I reloaded was 44 mag. And first load was 9gr of Unique behind 240gr cast semi wad cutter. And that thing was deadly accurate compared to 24gr H110 loads. Since then I have found out it depends. But I still like my Unique load after all these years. |
RE: Velocity VS. Accuracy
Accuracy all the way...place the shot and you have a dead animal.
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