6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester: A Battle of Ballistic Coefficients
 

When it comes to long range shooting, two calibers that cannot be ignored are the 6.5 Creedmoor and the venerable 308 Winchester.

Although the 308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) has been a staple in the long-range target shooting community since its inception over 60 years ago, the 6.5 Creedmoor simply outperforms the 308 Winchester in almost every category when shooting out past 500 yards.

In this article, we are going to go through a detailed comparison of 308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor and explain the pros and cons of each cartridge, as well as discuss the ballistics data for these two popular calibers.

Break out your sandbags, bipods, and spotting scopes because we are going to squeeze the trigger and let it fly on long range shooting today!

What is 308?

In 1952, the U.S. Military started developing a replacement for the long-serving 30-06 Springfield cartridge (military designation: M2 Ball or 7.62x63mm).

Although the 30-06 Springfield had honorably served through both World Wars and Korea, the US Military wanted to develop a new cartridge that was lighter and more suitable for fully automatic rifle fire.

With advancements in rifle powder technology and case design in the 1950s, the new 7.62x51mm NATO rifle round was able to achieve neatly identical ballistic performance as the 30-06 Springfield with a shorter cartridge case length (63mm vs 51mm) and lower overall weight.

The US Army officially adopted the 7.62x51mm NATO round in 1958 and it has been in service ever since.

Seeing the potential of the cartridge in the civilian market, Winchester was quick to adapt the new rifle round to its Model 70 bolt action rifle. The civilian version of the 7.62x51mm NATO was named the 308 Winchester.

The 308 Winchester has since become the most popular big game hunting round in the world with bullet weights ranging between 120 to 180 grains.

308 ammo is available in a variety of loadings for varmint hunters, big game hunters, and F-Class Tactical Rifle shooters alike.

As the 308 Winchester was also adopted by other NATO nations, the amount of surplus ammo and components made by foreign manufacturers is also very plentiful.

The 308 Winchester is a clear upgrade to the 30-06 Springfield as the 308 has lower recoil, the round itself weighs less, it fits in a short action rifle, has lower pressure so it is more appropriate for use in gas powered rifles, and it has a slight advantage in accuracy over its older counterpart.

With all of these advantages, the 308 Winchester has been a staple for precision shooters in the military, law enforcement, and civilian life.

Although the 308 Winchester is the most prolific military cartridge to date, its true success came in the civilian market.

Hunters and target shooters are mostly to credit for the 308’s widespread success.

The most popular hunting ammo is sold with a 125, 150, 165, or 180 grain bullet and can be used effectively on big game across North America, Europe, and on safari in Africa. Of these rifle cartridges, the 150’s and 165’s are the most popular and will have a muzzle velocity around 2800 fps and 2650 fps, respectively.

For my readers who like to really air it out and enjoy long range shooting, the two most popular choices are the 168 and 175 grain bullet: either a Sierra Matchking Boattail Hollow Point or a Berger VLD Target.

However, what long-range target shooters have come to understand is that a slower, heavier bullet with a higher Ballistic Coefficient (BC) is preferred to a lighter bullet with a higher muzzle velocity when you are getting into longer ranges (800+ yards).

This is where the 6.5 Creedmoor comes into the picture.

What is 6.5 Creedmoor?

The development of the 6.5 Creedmoor round began in August of 2005 during Service Rifle Week at the National Matches in Camp Perry, Ohio.

As with most innovations, the genesis of the 6.5 Creedmoor came out of frustration – and that frustration came from legendary Service Rifle competitor and former US Marine, Dennis DeMille.

Several of the competitors at the National Matches were using a wildcat cartridge called the 6XC. Although the 6XC was winning matches, there was no published reloading data for the cartridge and it was consistently blowing out primers and breaking extractors (clearly they never called me about this problem!)

DeMille was working for the company that was the exclusive distributor of rifles chambered in 6XC, and competitors would come to him between strings of fire to ask for help (AKA complain).

DeMille had just about had enough of it and was about to throw in the towel and head home. Thankfully, he was sharing a condo with a good friend of his and soon the gripe session began.

That friend was none other than Dave Emary, the senior ballistician for Hornady Ammunition at the time.

Emary was able to talk DeMille off the ledge and asked him to give him a “wishlist” for the ideal long-range cartridge that could be used for “shooting across the course” (that’s High Power-speak for being viable for all the courses of fire in a High Power match.)

DeMille agreed and the next day he approached Emary with a list of 7 requirements for the new cartridge.

DeMille’s Dream Cartridge Wishlist Was:

• The cartridge must be able to fit into a magazine for the rapid fire stages of the competition
• Less recoil than a 308 Winchester for better follow-up shots and shooter comfort during rapid fire
• Flatter trajectory than a 308 with an accurate, high BC bullet
• Good barrel life
• Uses readily available reloading components so results can be duplicated
• Reloading recipes printed on the box
• Produced in quantities that could keep up with demand
• Emary took DeMille’s list back to Hornady and got to work on producing the ideal long range rifle cartridge.

Emary chose the relatively unknown 30 Thompson Center (30 T/C) as the parent cartridge for the 6.5 Creedmoor. He necked down the case to accept the more aerodynamic .264” diameter bullets and sharpened the shoulders to 30 degrees and the 6.5 Creedmoor was born.

Emary initially wanted to call the new round the 6.5 DeMille but DeMille would hear nothing of that. Instead, DeMille recommend the name “Creedmoor” in honor of the Creedmoor Rifle Range in Long Island, New York where the first National Matches were held.

And so, in 2007, Hornady unveiled their new 6.5 Creedmoor ammo at SHOT Show in Las Vegas, Nevada.

They didn’t have high hopes for this new cartridge and had no idea that the 6.5 Creedmoor was about to take the long range shooting scene by storm.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is loaded in a variety of bullet weights that are typically separated into two categories. The Light Weight category, which ranges from 127 to 135 grain bullet weights, and the Heavy Weight category, which is loaded with 140 to 147 grain bullets.

The cartridge rim of the 6.5 Creedmoor is identical to the 308 Winchester, which means all that is needed to convert a precision rifle or semi-automatic rifle chambered in 308 Winchester to 6.5 Creedmoor is a barrel change. No need to buy a new rifle!

Continue reading 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester: A Battle of Ballistic Coefficients at Ammo.com.

We see so many of these threads and blog posts online about 6.5 Creed versus 308 for long range shooting, and I really can’t wrap my head around why we’re still “debating” this. After 15 years with the 6.5 Creedmoor on the market, almost 25 years of the 260, over 60 years of the 7-08 and 243win, and over a hundred years comparing x55 Swede to ‘06 Springfield, I’m absolutely baffled that folks are still interested in kicking around the “308 vs. 6.5 creed” discussion.

Honestly, I’m convinced that if anybody is still missing the point, it’s only because they WANT to miss the point. Yes, 308win can be fired long range. Yes, 6.5 Creedmoor is objectively superior for the task in almost every valid aspect.

Nomercy I don't think its really a debate as, like you said, th 6.5 wins hands down. However some think the 6.5CM is the holy grail of cartridges when in fact it isn't. But an accurate, low recoiler, moderately log range cartridge it is. An hard to beat. My current 6.5CM is the most accurate rifle I've had in some time. 1/4 - 1/2 MOA is thenorm for it with its current loading.
I owned a couple 308s and frankly it never impressed me, especilly on game. I would much prefer a 7-08 or 6.5CM or even a 243 over the 308.
I'll likely get flack for that remark but that's fine. Its been my experience and I'll hold to it.

It seems to me - observationally - that there are far more folks who make a lot of claims about “rabid 6.5 creed fanbois” than there are of rabid 6.5 creed fanbois actually making claims about the Creed...

Let’s be clear on two things:

1) Neither is a bad cartridge.

2) The 6.5 Creedmoor isn’t “hard to beat.” There’s no competition format in which the 6.5 Creedmoor has a dominating share in the winners’ circle, and has NOT been for at least 6 years. It’s had a diminishing place at the table for a long time, but even since at LEAST 2015, it has not held a majority position among the shooters qualifying for the PRS finale (the game it was supposedly designed to dominate). In every competition format under the sun, it’s exceptionally easy to “beat” the 6.5 Creedmoor, which is why it’s not a dominating cartridge in any form of competition.

While the 6.5 creed smokes the older, slower, less aerodynamic 308win in every objective measure, it’s not a dominant competition cartridge. It’s a gateway drug that us competitors warn newbies to avoid because even it has too many weaknesses in the field of competition. But to the credit of the Creedmoor, the 308winchester is so far removed, a special handicap class exists to allow them to compete only against eachother (and 223rems).

For a casual shooter, either can be a viable option, just as a dozen or a hundred other cartridges could be. But when this particular ball continues to be kicked around, us in the competition side continue to see new COMPETITIVE shooters be mislead into buying a 6.5 Creedmoor, and inherently handicapping themselves. In the context of competition, the discussion between 6.5 creed and 308win is basically like discussing the best behaved kids in detention, or the fastest kids in the slow heat of a race... they don’t really deserve the attention they’re getting, because at the end of the day, determining which is “better” between these two is wholly irrelevant in a discussion for what is “best” for long range shooting competition (arguably also for casual long range shooting).

Every. single. season we see new competitors come out to play with 6.5 creeds which was bought based on discussions of “what’s best, a 6.5 creed or 308win?”, and within a couple matches, they realize their mistake, and wish they’d NOT bought a 6.5.

Mercy I understand where you're coming from. And like I said I don't believe the Creed is the best out there. There were a couple reasons why I purchased mine. I wanted something I could get in a LH action, components readily available, low recoil, accurate out to 600 or 700 yards all without going the custom route. The Bergara B14 HMR filled that bill nicely.

My comments above read more harshly than they should, but maybe not. There's not a week which goes by which doesn't see this debate rehashed over and over, which implies to new shooters that it's actually important. The 308win wasn't the "best option" for a new long range shooter before the 6.5 creed, and the 6.5 creed doesn't hold that title today now that it has arrived either. Both are fine options, but I'm hard pressed to pretend either is "best" - there are dozens of options which serve the task exceptionally well for the casual shooter, and further, there are multiple options for competitive shooters which distinctly overshadow either of these... So why this particular discussion continues to get so much attention after FIFTEEN YEARS absolutely escapes me...

Much more productive to describe what makes a good cartridge for long range shooting, limitations, and defining cartridges among a matrix of parameters, rather than simply beating the same drum comparing these two.

I got a chance to shoot a friends 6.5 Credemore for the first time a few months back. The thing I liked about the 6.5 was the low recoil. It really made it easy to put a sub-moa group downrange. My first group at 100 yards all 5 the holes touched. I cursed my buddy for making me want another caliber.

I can see why the 6.5 Creedmoor continues to get compared to other traditional cartridges since it's one of the newest factory cartridges that was ostensibly developed for long range shooting. I read the OP's article and his link to the 2nd half of that article and it still leaves one with lots of questions. The article mentions 1,000 performance for the military but only gives statistics out to 400 yards. The articles makes a lot of claims for the 6.5CM but doesn't back them up or explain them. Claiming "about 30% less felt recoil" is a meaningless claim without knowing the rifles compared, bullet weights, MV, etc. While on that subject, the ballistics chart simply lists several bullets of a certain weight for both calibers without even mentioning the brand, style of bullet, SD, etc. I like to read articles like this when I learn something. I don't enjoy reading them when I am left with several questions about the very process used to compare both calibers. Not trying to offend but A- for effort but D- for content. Hopefully this helps upgrade future articles.

NoMercy, you made comments about the 308 and 6.5, claiming they were okay (I happen to agree) but there were much better calibers/rounds to use. Which ones? And why? I'm not a long range shooter and don't compete but I still like to read about it and learn. I may never compete in a PRS match but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to figure out what works best for one and see if I can incorporate it into some of my longer range shooting. :fighting0007:

I would enjoy reading about other calibers as well. The gun mags don't have much incentive to write about other calibers since their job is to advertise.

"One of the newest" isn't discrete, so maybe I'm splitting hairs, but there have been a lot of new cartridges developed in the last 15 years, many of which out perform the 6.5 creed in various aspects, and a handful of which are assuredly more intriguing for one or another particular feature than the 6.5 creed... And of course, this doesn't explicate at all why there's so much attention given to this particular comparison. Considering "new cartridges designed for long range performance" in the context of the 15yrs the 6.5 creed has been around, we have the 6.8 Westerner, 6.5 PRC, 300 PRC, 24, 26, 28, 30, and 33 Noslers, 6 creed, 6 ARC, 277 Fury, 7mm valkyrie, around a dozen Sherman and Sherman Short cartridges... But for some reason, 2007 defines "new" and for some other reason, 308win defines the gold standard, and for yet another reason altogether, bloggers seem to think we're all fascinated by the same comparison between these two...

The sources of my frustration with this particular topic - "6.5 creed vs. 308win" - are twofold:

1) The novelty has thoroughly worn off as these posts have been regurgitated over. and. over. for the past 15years. Various blog sites have all done a poor job at "putting a new twist" or "telling the rest of the story" in this comparison, because there's really nothing so interesting or novel to discuss about it. We've known for over a hundred years that a faster cartridge with a higher ballistic coefficient is easier to manage at long range, offering a higher impact probability. The world first observed a a fast and aerodynamic 6.5x55 Swede Mauser burning down the capabilities of the blunt and sluggish .30-30 Winchester as far back as 1895, so why should we be so surprised and so intrigued when the laws of physics have not changed a century later? Why does every blog under the sun feel compelled to pump out the same story over. and. over. for a decade and a half? Wouldn't the world think it strange if every auto blog under the sun were pumping out a comparison of a 1952 Ford F-150 and a 2007 Dodge Ram every week? Are we all supposed to be surprised when the more modern engine has better gas mileage and higher horsepower - or surprised the ride quality and driveability is improved (the '52 F series lacking power steering especially) in the more modern pickup?

2) This undeserved attention implies the comparison is truly meaningful - a decisive debate determining the "better" of these two should have meaning, right? If we're so fixated on determining which of these two is "better," then shouldn't one or the other be at least somewhat close to "best" for something? But for the competitor, any competitor, there's no discipline - PRS included - in which either of these cartridges offer dominating performance. So much so, that the 308win even has it's own handicapped classes in multiple shooting disciplines... It lags so far behind other successful cartridges in these disciplines that special "bumper bowling" classes are created to allow it to be competitive on its own scale... Palma, Service rifle, Heavy Metal 3 gun, PRS Tac class... In other words, being "better" than the 308win in EVERY shooting sport discipline is exceptionally easy. The 6.5 Creed equally does not capture any dominating performance position in any shooting sport discipline - not even in PRS. So while all of these gun-blogs are pumping over and over the analogous article of 1952 F-150 versus 2007 Dodge Ram, I'm wondering why we care at all, when neither are winning Nascar races, neither are winning funny car drags, neither are leading the market for horsepower or gas mileage or towing capacity... Just two relatively arbitrary pickups in a broad market and a long history of pickups...

Demonstrably, there's no shooting sport discipline for which either of these are the "best choice." But equally, when we remove the specific demands of competitive shooting, the relevance of any singular cartridge as "best" is largely diminished to pedantic irrelevancy. The context of each casual shooter's available range and individual desires and expectations bend the performance definitions for "best" significantly. If a shooter wants low cost options to shoot zero to 600yrds, a 223remington is a more affordable and more readily available option than either. If a person wants to hunt deer at 600-800yrds, there are higher energy options available which are better choices, like 6.5 PRC, 7rem mag, 300 PRC, etc.. If a person simply wants to learn to manage long range trajectories, a 22LR and a 300yrd range is hard to beat. In specific context where either the 6.5 creed or 308win shine brightly, a dozen or more other cartridges shine as brightly or moreso, depending upon what other contextual attributes are included in the calculus. A 7mm-08, 260rem, 243win, 6 creed, Dasher, BR/BRA/BRX, PPC, 6 ARC, 243LBC, 6.5 Grendel, 7x57mauser, 6.5x55 swede, 25-06, 257roberts.... a long, long list of cartridges offering high ballistic coefficients, moderate to high velocities, low recoil and low powder consumption will all suit the demand.

In short, for any form of competition, neither of these cartridges are relevant. For any casual, non-competitor, the differentiation between the two is equally irrelevant among a dozen or more other cartridges which do the same task as well or better - so "better" between the two in either competitive or non-competitive context certainly isn't nearly as important as these inundating and repetitive articles might have us believe.

The comparison can be a great case study in fundamentals of long range shooting - a revisit of the Litz article analyzing the WEZ for each; a sensitivity analysis of various variables for long range shooting - wind reading accuracy, group size, cartridge performance... But the comparison is directional at best, a comparative case study of how fundamentals of ballistics influence real world difficulty, or ease, in trajectory management and influence hit probability at range. But short of the Litz article and the subsequent PRB post thereabout, we really haven't seen THAT instruction being made, which might point many shooters PAST either of these choices..

I guess I should own up on calling 6.5 CM one of the newest calibers designed for long range shooting. I did not realize that the 6.5CM came out in 2007. That is a long time ago. I don't read gun mags every month but do read them occasionally or whenever a buddy talks about some new caliber or there's an article about something to do with a game species that I hunt. In looking through your above list of calibers, I can see that the gun mags ignore several of those 6mm's and most of the Nosler cartridges. Comparing a cartridge to the 308 gives a baseline of performance for many of us. That doesn't mean half of any article should be about a .308 but I can see where listing it in a title is going to draw more attention.

My interest in long range shooting is about calibers and cartridges used, what makes them more competitive and why. It's fun to learn new stuff and see what direction competitions are moving a class of rifles and cartridges. I don't know that any of the new cartridges are going to make a difference for me in hunting or plinking but it's interesting still to see what people are using to remain competitive at longer ranges.

Back in the 50's some wildcatter who's name escapes me, took a 250/3000 savage, necked it to 6.5 and AI'd it, was an exact clone of the 6.5 creed. so nothing new about it. The only reason it jumped out of the gates so strong was they built decent rifles for the chambering (the RPR for example) and loaded decent ammo for them. its really rather anemic when you consider it runs a 140 at around 2700 fps.

There is NOTHING the 6.5 Creed will do that my 6.5x55 Swedish won't do. Since I handload I can easily best the Creed's ballistics and velocity. There has been a lot of hype about the Creed but when you get right down to it a number of 6.5mm cartridges already exist that are just as good or even better: 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68, 260 Rem, 6.5 Rem Mag, 264 Win Mag etc...

The Creed filled a niche that really didn't exist in the first place. But hey if you want it, go for it. Since I have the aforementioned 6.5x55 as well as a 6.5x54MS I don't see the need for one.

This is the same silly stuff which always comes up in any discussion about the 6.5 creedmoor, and frankly, it’s nothing more than that. Sure there’s plenty of stuff the 6.5 creed will do the x55 won’t...

When loaded to their maximum pressures, the 6.5 Creedmoor uses less powder, recoils less, and offers longer barrel life than the 6.5x55 Swede, and fits into a lighter rifle. When loaded to equivalent velocity, the Creedmoor uses less powder to get there, and still fits into a lighter rifle - and frankly, is considerably easier to develop loads for.

Speed isn’t the only measure of cartridge performance. Guys were using any and all of the old cartridges on the market for competition before the 6.5 creed came about. Then some shooters asked for improvements in specific directions, which all pointed to a shortened case, fatter, with a steeper shoulder and achieving a minimum performance standard.

It’s talking out of both sides of your mouth to say a Swede has any value which isn’t also bestowed upon the Creed. Twins cannot have disparate value - such is the nature of being twins. If you don’t need one or want one, don’t buy one. I don’t have a need for a 6.5 creed, so I don’t have one. But it’s silly to pretend it doesn’t deserve a spot at the table beside its ballistic twins, just because you have an older analogy and don’t need another.

Make no mistake about it, the Creed was developed to sell rifles and there is nothing wrong with that. But there were already other rifles and cartridges that do the same thing and since I own one of those rifles I have no need for the Creed. If you want one, by all means go buy one. But there is no magic in anything the Creed does. Hundreds of thousands of big game animals fell to 6.5mm bullets long before the Creed was ever conceived. Buy off on the hype if you want to, I'll pass.

Some of us shoot more than others. I burned out two barrels in 6.5 creed before passing the rifle on. I burn out a few barrels every year, and have since the late 1990’s. 2500 rounds of barrel life don’t go very far when you shoot 150-250 rounds per weekend two or three times per month, with practice between.

Again, guys can piss and moan all they want about how much they love cartridges which throw 140grn 6.5mm cartridges at 2700-2800fps, but it’s obvious how silly they really are when they point to ONE of the same and claim it worthless.

Either you’re standing up and saying they’re different, which just sounds foolish, or you’re standing up and saying they’re the same, and one is great but one is worthless... which sounds even more foolish...

Once again you prove your reading comprehension really sucks. Nowhere in my post did I say or imply the Creed is worthless. What I said is it isnt magic and that it will not do anything a number of other cartridges will also do. And you are unable to adequately refute that comnent. A 6.5mm bullet at any velocity you want to use is no more effective out of the Creed than it it out of any other 6.5mm cartridge. Physics does not care what platform launches the projectile when it comes to the end results. PERIOD!

You buy off on the hype, but I dont. PERIOD

Below is the loading data from the Nosler site as a representation of what I am saying that shows the data for 140 gr loads for the 6.5 Creed, the 6.5x55 Swedish and the 260 Rem. If you don't like Nosler then look up some other brand. Using the exact same bullets there simply IS NOT any significant difference in down range performance.







Based on the data why is the 6.5 Creed magically superior to the other rounds and what will it do that the others wont? And do you really want to try and claim that a rifle in 6.5 Creed can be made lighter and easier to carry than a rifle in 260 Rem? Both are short action (the Swede isn't) and both can be put into identical rifles with identical weights. Tell me exactly what special niche exists between the 260 Rem and the 6.5 Creed that only the 6.5 Creed can fill?

Does a special niche have to exist for the F-150 to outsell the Silverado?

No.

More people want F-150’s than want Silverado’s, so more F-150’s are sold. More people want 6.5 creeds than 260 rems, so more Creeds are sold.

What about free market economy rankles you so terribly?

Are you really this ignorant? Is this really the best you have? I challenge you to show me where I said the 6.5 Creed should not exist. I challenge you to show me where I said anything about the free market. My point, which you have been completely unable to refute, is that the Creed IS NOT MAGIC and that it does not do ANYTHING that a cartridge like the 6.5x55 or 260 Rem can't do. You tried a really idiotic stance of being put in a "smaller and lighter" rig but when we talk about the 260 Rem that simply IS NOT THE CASE. Bottom line the 6.5 Creed is no better and no worse than any of the others I mentioned. It tries to fill a niche that simply DOES NOT EXIST. It doesn't matter how much you buy into the hype, the 6.5 Creed and the 260 Rem are identical in ballistics, the data is above.

I asked you a really simple question: What niche exists between the 6.5 Creed and the 260 rem that can only be filled by the Creed? The only honest answer (which you seem to be unable to give) is that there is NONE. The Creed was developed to sell rifles (see your analogy of half ton trucks above) and admittedly it does that very well, which I have already stated in a previous post. But, and this is a big but, it is not magic and only an idiot would try and say it is. If you want one and are in love with the hype, then by all means get one. Heck get a dozen for all I care and that sort of screws up your really dumb comment about free market economy doesn't it? Fools and their $$$ are often easily separated, but the real bottom line is anybody that owns a 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68, 260 Rem, 6,5 Rem Mag, 264 Win Mag etc..., as I do, will gain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by buying a 6.5 Creed. PERIOD.

You really seem to have your panties in a twist because physics do not support the hype. Deal with it, there is no magic in the Creed, simply a lot of marketing hype to separate consumers from their $$$. Intelligent consumers see through it. Dumb consumers buy into it.

You came into a thread to piss and moan about something new because you’re insecure about your Swede. Your dissenting comments certainly seem jaded against the creed - if it does nothing your swede doesn’t do, then by default, it does everything your Swede does, which you’ve touted as a favorable cartridge... you can’t defend your own disdain for the Creedmoor...

Reading must be difficult for you as well as remembering your own claims. You pointed out that the Creed doesn’t do anything the Swede cannot, so I pointed out a handful of things it does. So now you’ve attempted to move the goalpost and replace the Swede with the 260... lame attempt, and quite juvenile for someone of your age...

You don’t have any argument to defend your position, other than “new is bad”...

The 308 didn’t do anything the 30-06 wasn’t already doing, nor the .30-06 anything the .30-03 wasn’t doing, the 300win Mag, 300 wsm, 300 Savage, 300 H&H, etc etc etc... The 7-08 didn’t do anything the 7x57 wasn’t doing, but we have 7RM, 280, 7wsm, 284win.... The 6.5 creed was just another 6.5mm cartridge, and everything good you can say about the Swede or the 260 is true about the 6.5 creed as well. But you just don’t like it, because it’s selling well... lame AF...

No I came onto this thread to point out there is nothing magical about the Creed. And I have provided data to prove it. You on the other hand still have not been able to refute it. You continue to say the Creed can do something the Swede cannot. But you haven't shown me that. Both are 6.5mm. Both shoot exactly the same bullets. Both are able to launch then at the same velocity. Both can be sighted in exactly the same. The end result of the bullet when it hits the target will be the same. So tell me "Genius" what can the Creed do that the Swede can't? Or that the 260 can't? Or that the 6.5x57 can't? Or that the 6.5x68 can't? Or that the 6.5 Rem Mag can't? Or that the 264 Win Mag can't? It simply cannot do a thing the others can't also do. They are all capable of firing the same bullet at the same velocity and will produce the same results. Physics prove that but that seems to escape you.

I have neither any hate nor love for the Creed. I don't care how many of them they sell or don't sell. It will not do anything that a rifle I already own won't do. To claim it will is folly and stupid. There is no magic in the Creed all there is, is a bunch of hype and you're not honest enough to admit it. The Creed exists solely to sell rifles and it does not fill any niche that was needing filled. PERIOD.

The above is the only intelligent thing you have posted on this topic and you are making my point even if you're not intelligent enough to see that. There is no magic in any of those but none of them have been subjected to the hype of the Creed. I have already stated the Creed is no better and no worse than any other 6.5. But you seem to think it is "special" when your own posting just showed the error in that concept.

Nobody - except you - has claimed any magic is bestowed upon the 6.5 creed.

You’re arguing with yourself and your imaginary friends here. Nobody cares that you like your Swede better than the creed. Millions of people bought the Creed because of what it can do, and the fact so many cartridges do the same thing proves what the Creed does is useful for a lot of folks.

This deviation is why:

1) I hate the fact so many blogs like this one insist on regurgitating the same crap about 308 vs. 6.5 creed still after so many years - it ONLY serves as a breeding ground for luddites to thump their chest that “my old cartridge is still as good...” and no other purpose.

2) I had Flags on my ignore list for several years. I’m honestly not sure how that was undone, and I’m quite disappointed to find it was.

You Sir are the very epitome of pathetic. I have noticed on the reloading pages here that you seem to think only your viewpoint is correct. Newsflash: you just ain't that bright. Now lets see if you put me on ignore or if you respond yet again. Balls in your court Otis.

for what its worth after reading years of posts NM has forgotten more about ballistics and and cartridges than the meme queen ever will, sorry to impose but I also know just a bit about guns and cartridges!

The difference is I don't claim to know everything about it. But the comments I made on this thread are valid. Can you refute what I posted? Yes or no.

Ok, not refuting anything except this thread was not about the swede, it was about comparing the creed to the 308, I did not inject an argument about my favorite cartridge because this thread does not pertain to it. but NM made valid points if you were paying attention. the creed does as well as the swede in a lighter rifle and burns less powder, you just can't argue with that, its a fact!

Which merely proves the fact that it does not do anything better than other cartridges. It equals them but does not surpass them and if you took the time to read my posts the Swede was only on chambering I mentioned. I also mentioned the 260 Rem and the 6.5 Rem Mag and what you just said about the Creed does not hold up against the 260 or the 6.5 Mag but they never got hyped up in the same manner.

Bottom line is the Creed has benefitted from hype but does not bring anything magical to the table and if someone owns one of the other rounds it brings no benefit. Neither you nor NM have been able to refute that. Saying it will do the same thing as the other cartridges is basically admitting that it is the equal of other cartridges and not superior. As a simple matter of fact both the 260 Rem and the 6.5 Rem Mag are both short action 6.5 cartridges that were available before the Creed and were designed to give Swede performance in a short action and both have the same if not even better ballistics than the Creed but they were released without the same level of hype and therefore did not enjoy the same popularity.

Like it or not, those are the simple facts of the matter.

The only one who has mentioned magic is you! nobody has to refute anything, the creed operates at higher pressure so gives the same performance with a smaller capacity case, operates at top level performance in a short action, the 260, both 6.5's do not, using 140 gr bullets the 260 rem. will use up a good bit of powder space for bullet storage in a short action. so why would anyone use the swede or the 260 in a long action when there is the 6.5/06, or the 6.5 Gibbs which will outrun the 264 win mag by 200 fps using 9 gr. less powder.
another point is how many rifles are available today in the chamberings you are touting as just as good? if you don't want a creed, don't get one, if you don't have a 6.5 and want one there are a bunch of rifles chambered for the creed. how many 6.5x55 are available? 260? 6.5 rem mag?

I want you to engage your grey matter for a moment if that is even remotely possible.

How many of this sort of thread have you seen comparing the 308 to the Creed? Lots right? Why? Do you ever remember seeing one comparing the 308 to the 260 Rem? Or the 6.5 Rem Mag? Why not? Why the hype about the Creed when both the 260 and the 6.5 Mag predate it and are equal to or even actually better ballistically? Nosler loading data shows the 6.5 Rem Mag pushing a 140 gr bullet 250 fps faster than the Creed. Don't believe me, look it up. So is the Creed fanaticism "magic" or is it hype? Nobody seems to be able to tell me what the "magic" is and that's my point. The Creed is not magic and it does not do anything a number of other cartridges do but they never got the hype. By your own post it will do the same thing the others do but it does not do anything they can't do. Get it?

Perhaps you haven't noticed that I do not place any "magic" on the Creed nor do I buy into the hype. The Creed does 1 thing and only 1 thing better than the 260 Rem and the 6.5 Mag (add the 6.5x57, 6.5x68, 264 Win Mag to that list) and that is sell rifles simply due to the hype. I don't add the Swede on that list because it has been around long enough as a military round that there are probably a few million rifles chambered in the Swede world wide (most of them in Europe) and the Creed won't best that number in my life time. You do know the Swede was a military rifle don't you and that there are huge numbers overseas don't you? Or are you one of those shooters that cannot think past the USA? Ever been to Europe? Or Africa? Or Asia? Ever hunted and shot in those places? You haven't have you. Perhaps you fail to understand metric calibers and where they are used in the greatest numbers?

I keep asking what the "magic" is since the Creed is the only 6.5 caliber that has got the hype. The only honest answer is that it has no "magic" just a lot of hype and that again is my point. And here's a newsflash, I don't give a rip if you agree with me or not. Your opinion holds zero value to me on this subject.

You need to bleach the mold off your so called grey matter, you got online learned to meme and now your an expert on the net, nobody here claims there is anything extra special about the 6.5 creed, its just a modern cartridge (less body taper, sharper shoulders so it can handle higher pressures than the other 6.5's you mention, they shoot the same bullet at the same speed with less powder. but to take advantage of the BC of the .264 bullets you need more cubic inches for a hunting round. BC does not have much effect on the bullets flight till around 600 yards, at the range the creed is running low on steam for big game hunting. I have a creed, am not that impressed but for normal hunting it does as well as the 260, swede, etc. Now what you have to realize is the fact that the way information flows on the net you have to figure out what info is accurate and what is what you call hype. There are those who have never fired a decent rifle who went out and bought a creed, and touted their results on the www. and then a bunch of unknowings followed suit, those with knowledge and common sense can filter it out, and disregard it, but you have to buck up to everyone who picks out what is good about the cartridge because as NM stated it is as good as your beloved swede and has a couple point advantage. in a custom cut min spec chamber in the right hands it can be loaded to a significant advantage over the swede due to its case design for reasons I have stated above, your not believing the hype, neither are we, just stating facts about the differences.
Its how information goes on the net, folks with education but zero experience making statements which are correct in they're opinion but factually incorrect, ya need to learn to filter facts from BS, instead of dwelling on them just because someone points out the good points of the cartridge.
I remember when the 17 HMR was first introduced, the first post I read on HNI about it stated "suitable for small game varmints and edible game up to and including smaller subspecies of deer" common sense says a highly volatile 17 gr. v-max at 2500 fps is not in any way, shape, or for a deer round. I bought one when the started making decent hunting ammo and have used it with good success on game up to coyote size, and have taken a couple deer with it on damage permits. All in all my point is, just cause its on the net doesn't make it a fact!

Gotta say, this topic has had some interesting takeaways on calibers and intended uses. Even a few surprises. I never thought anybody would use a 17 hummer for deer but more power to ya. It does make sense with a damage permit where you prolly don't want over penetration of anything.

Saw what you will about flags memes but he does post some hilarious memes that are so f'ing accurate about stuff too. I read flags posts because he has a lot of hunting experience and often puts things into perspective from that level and he's usually into using some caliber with a cool factor for hunting. I read NoMercy448's stuff because he pushes the envelope on what rifles can do long range and in competitions. Stuff I don't know about but enjoy reading. He picks his calibers based on what works best for him. And back in the day, Ridge Runner "used to" post about long range hunting and some of the purists (read whiners) bagged on him because they didn't think that was okay or cool. Screw em. He used to kill a lot more critters than any of the whiners did and he didn't have wounded ones running off. So each of you brings something a little different to the table and it's all good to read about. None of you are affected by the drivel most gun writers put out and would easily write more informative and better articles. Your dustup above is your business but the info is damn good to know. :devil:

^^^ Boy, Did U Nail That Correctly Flags, a Legend in one's own mind without backup info but a helluva lot of Rederick. " I read Nom______8's stuff because he pushes the envelope on what rifles can do long range and in competitions " < maybe Shines there ~ but the game shooting Practices expressed, kinda reminds me of the mexican muley-poach-camp shooters at the ridge down in San Diego ( where it's Quantity Not Quality ) . there's 2 expressions I learned in AA starting 35 yrs. ago : ' some people just have Broken Perceptors' # 2 "They are not at fault , They seem to have been born that way ".
btw - regarding the .257"s- I'll take My Eny M17 Eddystone 25-06 all day long and the barrel still has plenty of life left , killed ALOT of game with it. ( Lope and Deer Not Target competition , never cared to go there . also , a good 130gr. in the 270 win is definitely > no need for Creed ( for Game) I could care less 1 way or the other about johnny-come-lately cartridges but I did build a 7-08 for my Gal back in 06 cause it shoots easy and well for her.

oh ~ like Col. Graig Oglethorpe Doddington III - Jr. ?