Politics Nothing goes with politics quite like crying and complaining, and we're a perfect example of that.

So what if??

Old 07-01-2020, 04:09 PM
  #11  
Nontypical Buck
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I don't think we view humans as inherently good else we would not, through our history perhaps so emphasis on "raising the child in the way in which he should go."

This is an answer to Alsatian.

Last edited by cr422; 07-01-2020 at 04:17 PM. Reason: add comments
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:16 PM
  #12  
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It looks like I am stuck here for a while yet. Maybe will be enjoying the holiday here.

I am still interested in my views that our leaders should take a more aggressive approach in suppressing the violence and the anti-American activities.

I am also interested in reactions to the data Japan v. U.S. regarding differences in virus deaths seemingly due simply to use or non-use of masks.

What say y'all?
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:13 PM
  #13  
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I'm glad to see you back, even if it's just for a short while. The difference in statistics is stark. However, I'd like to hear more about if there are any other mitigation measures being used besides masks.
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:53 PM
  #14  
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Well I repeat something I have posted elsewhere. The two most fundamental functions of government are to protect people in their persons and their property. If a government cannot or will not do this, the government is a failure and loses any claim to legitimacy. To my mind allowing looting and arson to procede unchecked -- which some governors and some mayors have done -- fails on both counts. I would trace my contention back to Thomas Hobbes's "Leviathan," but I bet you can find this supported further back in earlier political theorists. Maybe it is not discussed because it is considered so fundamental that it went without being explicitly stated.

Hobbes starts his analysis of political organization from a conceptual state of nature before any government -- when it was every man for himself, and everyone was in a defacto state of continuous war with everyone else. In this first state of nature life was nasty, brutish, and short. Men combined to form governments to protect themselves and their property.

Believe me, providing so called 'social justice' is NOT the most fundamental mission of government, and only loony liberal progressive politicians act like it is.

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Old 07-01-2020, 08:03 PM
  #15  
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To the question should Trump use the military to suppress lawless autonomous zones, I think not. I don't like federal solutions to local problems, as a philosophical matter. I think Trump has authority to intervene in this way, but I think it is more prudent to avoid that for now.

I kind of like letting the brain dead voters who vote in Democrat mayors and Democrat governors to suffer the consequences of their bad choices. Let all the people see what happens when Democrats have power. It is no skin off my neck if property owners in CHAZ are denied the free enjoyment of their property rights because their idiotic mayor won't enforce those property rights. It is no skin off my neck that persons who live in CHAZ are no longer safe because their mayor won't provide needed policing. You sleep in the bed you yourself made, baby! Now when you come to Oklahoma and try that crap, it ain't going to proceed very far.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:26 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by CalHunter View Post
I'm glad to see you back, even if it's just for a short while. The difference in statistics is stark. However, I'd like to hear more about if there are any other mitigation measures being used besides masks.
Well the measures taken during the state of emergency were not much different than what I hear were taken here, although not really as draconian. Many of the restrictions were done mostly by request. Bars were asked to close at 8PM. There were more measures taken in Tokyo as time went on. Osaka is where you go to eat, Tokyo is where you go to party. The governor of Tokyo prefecture did close the pachinko parlors, I hear. I guess she also closed the daytime karaoke rooms.

They did ask that women start grocery shopping every two days instead of every day. Yeah, it may seem weird, but sachiko will buy fruit or vegetables or seafood, just about every day. Or she will have me give the girls money and send them.

We didn't have any of the extreme stuff that happened here though, I suppose. I hear the governor in Michigan wouldn't let you buy paint. I know people would like to hear that there is something unusual going on here, but that is just not the case. People have been encouraged to work from home and many, many have. In fact sachiko has been doing her lecture class from home. It's apparently set up so student can even ask questions and she can answer them. They have even encouraged people to go to a vacation spot and work from there.

Life is different here. There is traffic on the streets, but mostly we use public transportation which is fantastic here. Sachiko takes the bus or train to campus, the bus if it's raining since the covered stop is close by. She can scamper right over there. The train, if the weather is decent because it's faster.

You can't avoid crowds here. The buses and trains are crowded as are the places where you wait. The population density is much higher than in the U.S. So if one is looking for an alternative explanation for the lower death rate here, you won't find it. I read an article by someone from Australia who was decrying the high rate of cases and deaths in Australia as compared to Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. He also noted the fact that masks seemed to make the difference. They are only effective though, if everyone wears one. And that is what you see back home. EVERYONE will be wearing one out in public.

If you want to get a better feel for how the pandemic is being handled here, I suggest you check out www.nippon.com/en
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Old 07-03-2020, 08:41 AM
  #17  
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From what you're saying, it sounds like Japan's major mediation measure was wearing masks rather than social distancing or staying at home. I went to your suggested website and it was interesting to see that most people infected with corona virus recovered (about 88%). That information seems to escape authorities in the US.

Edit--When i read more articles at nippon.com/en, the US far surpasses other countries in both corona infection and death rates. Obviously something isn't working well. The news keeps reporting on house parties and people going to the beach as continuing the infection rate but totally ignores all of these protestors having any culpability in spreading corona.

Last edited by CalHunter; 07-03-2020 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Addition
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:23 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by CalHunter View Post

Edit--When i read more articles at nippon.com/en, the US far surpasses other countries in both corona infection and death rates. Obviously something isn't working well. The news keeps reporting on house parties and people going to the beach as continuing the infection rate but totally ignores all of these protestors having any culpability in spreading corona.
I think I would disagree with what I THINK you are saying. Since all the numbers are potentially misleading, I would be careful how I analyse the numbers. Here is one number I think is very useful: rate of covid deaths per million of population. The US has a population of about 330,000,000. I believe we have had about 125,000 covid deaths. That is a 380 deaths per million rate. That is better -- i.e., LOWER death rate -- than that experienced by England, Spain, Italy, or France. In order of worst to best:

England: 786 deaths per million (44 K deaths, 56 M population)
Spain: 604 deaths per million (28.3 K deaths, 47 M population)
Italy: 580 deaths per million (34.8 K deaths, 60 M population)
France: 446 deaths per million (29.9 K deaths, 67 M population)
US: 380 deaths per million (125 K deaths, 330 M population.

These numbers are approximate and uncertain, but that is what I'm finding on the Internet. I would say we are beating all those countries. I didn't check on Germany, but I think they have done quite well fighting covid and avoiding covid deaths. I would expect they have bested the United States on this calculation.

There are uncertainties. What constitutes a death from covid? Is simply dying while infected with covid counted? I have covid, I'm shot by a looter and die, is that counted as a covid death? I hope not.

The number of "confirmed cases" isn't very good for comparisons, in my book. If fewer people are being tested, there are likely going to be fewer "confirmed cases," as cases that would otherwise be confirmed are not counted. It may be some tests are more accurate than other tests. Lots of uncertainties in the different reporting of numbers, the different practices, etc.

Last edited by Alsatian; 07-03-2020 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:15 AM
  #19  
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Those are good points. Using your above assessment formula, Japan has 975 deaths, 126 M population. If I understand your above formula of dividing the total # of deaths in a country by the # of millions of population in the country, it looks like Japan has a very low # of corona deaths per million. Using your formula, I'm getting a ridiculously low # of just under 8 deaths per million. Since math is NOT my forte, please verify using the #'s I reported from this weblink. I am definitely not a math guru.
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data...refecture.html

I realize that cr422's information doesn't include amount or degree of testing done in Japan which could influence statistics as well as to what degree Japan was able to stop people from visiting their country which is an island or at least quarantine them on arrival, how quickly that was implemented or probably the single biggest variable--how is a death determined to be caused by covid19 and are all of these countries using the same method and being honest. That would be a lengthy study in and of itself.

Cr422 commented that Everybody in Japan wears a mask for apparently 100% compliance. I haven't read about any protestors or Chop zones in Japan so it seems like they are having better luck in that particular area of mediation. I agree in advance that we don't have enough information to say exactly why Japan's methods are working better than ours but I think it's obvious that they must be doing something right or at least something that is working better than the US. YMMV and as always, I'm very curious to read your continued analysis.
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:21 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Alsatian View Post
I think I would disagree with what I THINK you are saying.

England: 786 deaths per million (44 K deaths, 56 M population)
Spain: 604 deaths per million (28.3 K deaths, 47 M population)
Italy: 580 deaths per million (34.8 K deaths, 60 M population)
France: 446 deaths per million (29.9 K deaths, 67 M population)
US: 380 deaths per million (125 K deaths, 330 M population).
Germany: 109 deaths per million (9 K deaths, 83 M population).

These numbers are approximate and uncertain, but that is what I'm finding on the Internet.
I have added Germany's results to the list. I wonder if anyone can conjecture how Germany has achieved such a low death rate? Maybe there just wasn't a very big influx of covid into Germany initially and Germany imposed measures BEFORE that influx got established?

But in any case . . . I'm not aware that the US has dramatically misplayed the covid matter. Even now, with increased new covid cases it is not clear how important that is. For example, consider this narrative on for size (by calling it a 'narrative' I am signalling that this is uncertain). Texas is experiencing high increases in new cases. Does that mean the sky is falling? Not necessarily. It is likely that the vast majority of those new cases are young people, young people are extremely robust to covid 19, and therefore this is not going to translate into a large surge of hospitalizations in Texas. Someone told a Texas doctor in Houston that his ICU load was at 90%: how can he say that the covid problem isn't overwhelming them? His reply was to urge them to look at what the ICU load had been a year before: it was 95%. I guess hospitals don't build out to have a planned for 20% utilization -- having a large idle spare capacity -- because that would be uneconomical. Long and short of it, hospitals NOWHERE are being overwhelmed by covid. So what is the upshot? The young people getting infected are not infecting the most vulnerable and putting them in the hospital. Hence, the practical result is that they are bringing us more rapidly to the condition of herd immunity -- which is a GOOD thing. Of course the media isn't going to say that! They aren't going to look at a half-full glass and say it is half-full they are going to say it is totally empty and that that is a result of systemic racism and only white privilege makes you think the glass is half-full and that Donald Trump pissed in the glass in a hotel room in Russia while he was there sealing the deal on Russian collusion in our 2016 election!

Last edited by Alsatian; 07-03-2020 at 10:24 AM.
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