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Old 05-30-2020, 02:08 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Oldtimr View Post
What I am saying if the medical examiner determines that it was not the officer's fault that the miscreant died and there was an underlying cause that made him die he should not be prosecuted. No one knows how much pressure was put on the suspects neck, the knee could have been putting light pressure or was just preventing him from raising his head in order to keep him from thrashing around. I am also saying we do not prosecute people in America because one segment of society riots and commits arson if a prosecution does not ensue. It is entirely possible after the medical report on the tests they are waiting for reports from a lab come back they will show that the guy had a drug in his system that caused him to expire . There is a lot pf premature judgement going on here. Why don't we wait to hang the defendant until after he had been proven guilty. Simply seeing a video which only shows what you can see is not proof the officer acted criminally.
I agree with this completely. But in the face of the violence and political fallout this cop is going to be sent down the river regardless of what the medical examiner and toxicology report say. He has a habit of excessive force and has had at least 10 previous complaints. Even if he didn't cause the death he will do time for it. May not be fair, but it is what it is.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:18 PM
  #52  
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The coroners findings are almost meaningless. The family can (and probably will) easily hire another medical examiner to totally contradict him. Human beings are failable and motivated by all manner of things.A coroners reports is really nothing but an opinion.

Not only that, the ME ruled he died from "being restrained." Well, it was the cop that was restraining him, even after the paramedics were taking his pulse, this cop didn't move, sat there over a non responsive human being, with his knee on his neck.

Video on the other hand, is incontrovertible.

Did you know this cop knew the victim, and that they had worked together at a night club as security for a long time? So even minutes after the man he personally knew became unresponsive....this cop kept right on kneeling on his neck.

Not only should this cop go to prison, I hope he goes to prison for the rest of his natural life. I've seen the video. It is incontrovertible.

Last edited by Valorius; 05-30-2020 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:27 PM
  #53  
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I believe the George Floyd was under arrest for passing counterfeit money (a $20 bill) which would in fact make him a miscreant. So Floyd was a suspect before he became a victim.

In the headline I quoted above (I realize people don't read linked stories but that is at their own debate peril), it said "George Floyd autopsy shows no signs of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation, attributes death to 'being restrained, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system." If one reads the article at the link provided, it stated a lot of facts obtained through an investigation and included a link to the actual complaint filed in court by the DA. The complaint summarized a lot of information and mentioned audio and video footage from body cams worn by the officers had been reviewed. In that footage, an Officer Lane (1 of the 2 officers responding to the original call) asked Officer Chauvin "should we roll him on his side." Officer Chauvin responded "no, staying put where we got him." Officer Lane then said "I am worried about excited delirium or whatever." Officer Chauvin responded "that's why we have him on his stomach."

Body cam footage showed Floyd stop moving and Officer Chauvin continue to hold the position with his knee on Floyd's neck After Floyd stopped moving, the complaint stated Body cam footage showed Officer Lane said "I want to roll him on his side" but none of the officers moved. The complaint them said "Kueng (Officer) checked Mr. Floyd's right wrist for a pulse and said 'I couldn't find one.' None of the officers moved from their positions." The complaint mentioned that almost 2 minutes passed before Officer Chauvin removed his knee from Floyd's neck area. That was most likely a critical time period in this incident and one where Chauvin should have made a different decision. NOTE--There's more in the article and also in the linked complaint.

I get what you're saying OT. Everybody does deserve their day in court and a trial by their peers. I often say I want to wait for more information before forming an opinion in a lot of police shooting cases. I doubt the investigation is completed but the prosecutor has looked at an incredible amount of compelling evidence already and has more than enough to meet the probable cause level to have Chauvin arrested. Doing so is a matter of public safety (arresting people we believe have killed another human being illegally). If the incident had been the opposite (Floyd had killed Officer Chauvin), you and I both would be saying that Floyd should be arrested. And in this incident as we have all of the facts, information, video and now DA complaint, I am saying they made the right call to arrest Officer Chauvin. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

During the trial, the prosecutor will have to meet the beyond a reasonable doubt standard which is higher. Officer Chauvin is set to get that with a full defense provided by whatever defense team represents him. Whatever rest of the story exists will come out then. For now though, the process seems to be working properly.

Now the looters, on the other hand, should be arrested. Especially the arsonists because that is a very dangerous sickness and crime.
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:50 PM
  #54  
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I've had people pass me bad money when I was a bartender who had no idea they'd done it. So maybe we can settle on "possible miscreant."

I am generally a wait for an investigation type myself, but the video evidence in this case is very clear...and honestly the additional data you just presented makes the cop even more guilty. It does seem to definitely exonerate one of the officers though.(I had thought it was the paramedic that took the pulse) If the arrested cop does somehow get off, we will see riots the like of which we have possibly never seen in this country.

As far as looters and rioters, I am a "looters will be shot" type of a guy. It seems very obvious that at least starting last night, these are outside out of state antifa agitators that are going to black neighborhoods and burning everything down.

Last edited by Valorius; 05-30-2020 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:30 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by CalHunter View Post
Videos do make for compelling news stories. Lunker, are you still ruling out pre-existing conditions. I guess your autopsies would be pretty quick.
Not anymore, and will apologize to you for jumping the gun on that one...

Will also thank you for your follow up... It made your initial comment very clear to me...
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:51 PM
  #56  
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Valorius, agreed on possible miscreant.

Lunker, no worries. I think we're all jumping the gun a bit in that each of us is thinking a lot of things without posting everything we're thinking. FWIW, I don't think the present autopsy is going to help Officer Chauvin or get him off the hook. The coroner who made the determination that Floyd's death was cause in part by "being restrained" will be asked a lot of questions about what that phrase means specifically. Chauvin having his knee on Floyd's neck will obviously be part of the "being restrained."

The coroner or some doctor or other expert will then be asked if they would recommend using a knee on Floyd's neck given his medical condition. No expert is going to say yes that's a good move. They will get asked why not. They will say because bad things can happen. They will get asked if they mean a person might die and will have to admit that is a possibility. Police Training experts will also be called in and asked about using that move--knee to a prone suspect's neck. None of them are going to say it's a good move. And it will go downhill from there.

Last edited by CalHunter; 05-30-2020 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:04 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
I've had people pass me bad money when I was a bartender who had no idea they'd done it. So maybe we can settle on "possible miscreant."

I am generally a wait for an investigation type myself, but the video evidence in this case is very clear...and honestly the additional data you just presented makes the cop even more guilty. It does seem to definitely exonerate one of the officers though.(I had thought it was the paramedic that took the pulse) If the arrested cop does somehow get off, we will see riots the like of which we have possibly never seen in this country.

As far as looters and rioters, I am a "looters will be shot" type of a guy. It seems very obvious that at least starting last night, these are outside out of state antifa agitators that are going to black neighborhoods and burning everything down.
I've been hearing reports that there are several outside groups migrating to the Twin Cities to agitate, and insight violence... Including White Supremacists, and Anarchist groups... Haven't confirmed the reports yet, just saying that it may be more than just Antifa fanning the flames...

Also, based on news conferences I've seen today, and special reports I've seen tonight, the crack down is on to in the Twin Cities to try a shut this violence down...
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:12 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
As far as looters and rioters, I am a "looters will be shot" type of a guy. It seems very obvious that at least starting last night, these are outside out of state antifa agitators that are going to black neighborhoods and burning everything down.
Seems like they're taking a chance that they don't get shot when they're not from the neighborhood.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:27 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Lunkerdog View Post
I've been hearing reports that there are several outside groups migrating to the Twin Cities to agitate, and insight violence... Including White Supremacists, and Anarchist groups... Haven't confirmed the reports yet, just saying that it may be more than just Antifa fanning the flames...

Also, based on news conferences I've seen today, and special reports I've seen tonight, the crack down is on to in the Twin Cities to try a shut this violence down...
Antifa we know to be a well funded international group. I cannot say the same for white supremacists, but it is entirely possible. That is also not the M.O. of white supremacists in 2020 America. (Not saying I agree either way- just that it's possible, though unlikely).
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