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Proof Death Stats Are Being Manipulated

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Proof Death Stats Are Being Manipulated

Old 05-18-2020, 04:37 PM
  #51  
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Let's be frank- the only thing Trump knew about the CDC going into this is that it's a group of doctors. Them screwing up is beyond any president's capability to control.
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Old 05-18-2020, 04:46 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
Let's be frank- the only thing Trump knew about the CDC going into this is that it's a group of doctors. Them screwing up is beyond any president's capability to control.
Really...so much for Harry's ..."The Buck Stops here". A narcissist can't understand any reality other than their own. They can lie constantly but because they don't have the ability to understand that they could be wrong it doesn't exist. All is good as long as I say it.... says an NPD person. Trump doesn't lie...because he believes what he says. Reality is what he believes whether it is right or wrong. It is a mental health issue..

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Old 05-19-2020, 04:23 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander View Post
So are you saying Alsatian this isn't that big a thing and there is no need for mitigation AKA social isolation? Opening everything up might re-ignite the economy but what happens if the virus comes back worse than before? For all who think this is just a political power play by liberals to oust Trump what about the rest of the world and the misery they are encountering? If anything I see politics standing in the way of science to get past this catastrophe. That's assuming this pandemic event is real.
I am saying it is not an emergency and hence government is not authorized to institute the heavy-handed orders they have done. People should have full exercise of their civil rights. People who want to cower in place can exercise their freedom to do that; people who do not want to cower in place should be allowed to do what they want to do -- to exercise their first amendment rights of free assembly. The goal was to flatten the curve. That was accomplished. Even at the height of the infections we were not close to overflowing our hospital capacities -- and that peak was largely just full-throttle, no effect from social distancing guidelines. Given that consideration, it seems very unlikely a future spike -- as you suggest -- would overflow those facilities, especially as they have been increased since that early stage (i.e., more ventilators have been manufactured since the onset, more PPE has been manufactured since the onset).

I'm an engineer. Engineers -- at least initially -- look at things, eyeball things in terms of orders of magnitude. The seriousness of COVID-19 is the same order of magnitude of seriousness as seasonal flu. By "order of magnitude" is meant power of ten. If COVID-19 were an order of magnitude more fatal than seasonal flu, it would need to have a fatality rate in excess of 1%. It appears, to the contrary, to have a fatality rate in the neighbourhood of 0.3% to 0.5%, making it the same order of magnitude of fatality rate as seasonal flu. I can't believe we have destroyed our economy and the livelihood of many, many people for many years over something that is the magnitude of seriousness of seasonal flu. When do you think the people previously employed in the restaurant industry -- including owners of restaurants -- are going to see an improvement in their standard of living? When you think people employed in the tourist industry are going to see an improvement in their standard of living? We didn't shut down the national economy when polio -- a serious infectious disease -- was prevalent in the US.

You ask why have other nations responded like we have. Maybe they are stupid too? Sweden didn't. I think in the long haul Sweden is going to look like the wise, and prudent nation. It isn't even clear that any of the shutdowns anywhere had any effect whatsoever in reducing total deaths.

Finally, with reference to the politicization of this, I think you need to address your complaint there to the news media and to Democrat politicians. It is THEY who have politicized this!

Oh, and another point. You referenced science. Open your eyes. There is precious little science going on here. Until things are associated with reliable numbers, there is no science. What numbers do we have with reference to this COVID-19 pandemic that are reliable? None, Zip. Nada. We don't know how many have been infected. We don't know how many have died. We don't know when the first infection occurred. Scientists are making conjectures and presenting them as science -- or scientists are making conjectures, and journalists are transforming those conjectures into "science," a distinction without a difference. Fauci says -- or conjectures -- that there may not be herd immunity, that individuals who have been infected and recovered might not develop immunity to the COVID-19 virus. Where is the science in that? It is a mere conjecture with no basis. It might happen! Ya, my lottery ticket might be the winner! Fauci says -- or conjectures -- that there will be a return of COVID-19 in the fall. Where is the science in that? It is a mere conjecture with no basis. People who don't know squat about science are throwing the term "it's science!" around simply as a rhetorical tool. Right now our science cannot tell us whether Sweden's "let it all hang out, baby!" tactic is better than the more common "the sky is falling! The sky is falling! Shelter in place! Shelter in place!" tactic.



Last edited by Alsatian; 05-19-2020 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 05-19-2020, 07:08 AM
  #54  
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I guess time will tell whether Sweden was right. I hope they were for a future rebound game plan.
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Old 05-19-2020, 07:51 AM
  #55  
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Well put Alsatian. A lot of the national discussion about C19 is just more of the emotional BS where you're somehow a bad person, stupid or crazy if you question anything but the people accusing you of such BS are perfectly okay to repeat talking points and trite phrases that don't really mean a lot since they don't understand their full implications and meanings. People bag on Trump for changing his position or modifying it as this pandemic unfolds. Why wouldn't he? As you learn more information and hopefully it's backed up by verifiable facts, you adjust how you're responding to a crisis. But so many armchair quarterbacks bash Trump because he was wrong or he changed his mind or he criticized somebody or he said something that offends their delicate senses in this everybody gets a trophy atmosphere of you're no longer allowed to call out stupidity, lies, deceit or something that's just plain wrong. I'm not an engineer like you Alsatian or a doctor like a few members or have some Mensa IQ like others but I still have the ability to think, reason, use logic and, perhaps most importantly, apply common sense.

When we first started hearing about C19, EVERYBODY downplayed its' danger and said it's just like the flu, another virus. That includes Fauci, Trump, WHO, CDC, all of the media and just about every single person in this country and the world. When Trump started to take it seriously (no, he wasn't the first person but he has the big podium) and proposed shutting down the borders, WHO, Fauci, the media and almost half of our country accused him of all kinds of nasty things even though at that point, we did understand that C19 originated in China. As C19 deaths increased, people finally got it. At least most of them but none of those opposing Trump will admit that.

Trump was initially resistant to shelter in place as was everybody else but he listened to all of his experts and took their advice to direct the country to shelter in place. Trump initially thought a 14-day period like a quarantine would do it but the length of time was increased as the death count continued climbing. Trump saw how the quarantine was hurting many people financially and asked Congress to pass a stimulus bill that would tide Americans over. The bill paid many people full-time wages at $15/HR for 4 months and Trump immediately signed it even with all of the BS add-ons that Pelosi added to the bill and which had nothing to do with corona.

Trump talked about how being shut down was hurting a lot of people and was mocked, castigated and criticized. He got all of those experts together and said what is a safe way to open the country back up. A huge majority of those experts agreed and their advice was again put out to all of the states. A lot of people are still being cautious and that's their right. Some people are still in panic mode when the evidence would suggest that whatever mitigation measures they've employed have worked as they're still alive to complain and panic. Maybe they need to drop the panic and shift to just being cautious.

Meanwhile, I regularly see a few people driving in their cars with masks on. I can't help but wonder if they wear a mask at home also. Wearing a mask these days almost seems to be the equivalent of wearing a bumper-sticker on your face or that you are part of some "resistance." Remember how we were told by all of those doctors (Fauci included) and the media that wearing a mask wouldn't stop corona? And then the truth came out that it was a lie presented to the public so there would be sufficient masks for doctors and nurses? We were supposed to "trust science" and its' titular figurehead Dr. Fauci while being told to ignore our common sense that was saying "then why are doctors and nurses wearing masks? The eyes, nose and mouth are the 3 areas where you ingest corona. A mask only protects 2 of the areas (nose and mouth if you wear it correctly and some do not) but it helps some, especially if a person already has corona as it contains their breath and saliva.

Again, I'm not an engineer like Alsatian but he is spot on when he called out theories we're still testing as not being science because those theories are not yet proven science, i.e. facts that you can repeatedly prove with science tests. We don't know enough about corona to definitively state if it's solvable or not. But we're making a lot of progress. Doctors practice medicine and still annually kill around 700K people through errors. Scientists test a lot of theories before eventually getting one that works (hopefully). Neither group is infallible yet both are hailed as experts that can make no mistake or misstatement. Interestingly, a court's definition of an expert is somebody that knows more than the average person. I think Fauci knows more than I do about infectious diseases but I have recently seen him get stuff wrong. He backtracked appropriately when proven wrong but having to do so indicates that his initial statement(s) weren't backed up by science that can be proven in a repeatable science experiment again and again. Instead, it proves that he threw out a theory or opinion which is really just a guess until you can prove it's correct or not. That's not okay because he presented things as facts when they were not. I'll still listen to what he has to say because he knows a lot and has a much better pipeline of information from labs than I do but I will continue to research what he says and apply common sense. And have half the country and even some members on this board consider me stupid because I choose to question things to find more information instead of just swallowing talking points. I now yield the soap box back to the next person.

Last edited by CalHunter; 05-19-2020 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:37 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander View Post
Really...so much for Harry's ..."The Buck Stops here". A narcissist can't understand any reality other than their own. They can lie constantly but because they don't have the ability to understand that they could be wrong it doesn't exist. All is good as long as I say it.... says an NPD person. Trump doesn't lie...because he believes what he says. Reality is what he believes whether it is right or wrong. It is a mental health issue..
Expecting -any- president to know the first damn thing about a covid19 test the CDC is whipping up is beyond goofy.

And I can't remember the last time the buck stopped with a US president. It probably was Truman.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:42 AM
  #57  
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@Alsatian- great post.

One of the few scientific facts (or at least strong hints) we do have is that based on anti body tests this virus is far, far, far less deadly than was presented.

There is literally no other explanation than politics why so many democrat states are remaining closed for the entire summer. It's beyond goofy.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:09 AM
  #58  
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Because those government leaders like the control they now have over their citizens.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:37 AM
  #59  
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I fully expect these states to do everything they can to stay closed until Nov, and to open up immediately after if Biden somehow manages to win.

This is all electioneering in my very cynical opinion.
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Old 05-19-2020, 10:19 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
Expecting -any- president to know the first damn thing about a covid19 test the CDC is whipping up is beyond goofy.

And I can't remember the last time the buck stopped with a US president. It probably was Truman.
I don't think Trump knew much about pandemics since he disbanded the group that was formed under a previous administration to deal with these things. In addition a playbook was left behind and under law was reviewed with the new president when he first came to the White House. He chose to write his own playbook after the virus hit. Interesting at least to me that the CDC wasn't the lead especially in the beginning of the pandemic.
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