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Old 02-19-2018, 07:04 AM
  #31  
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Not every teacher needs to be armed. Have a few well trained teachers in the school that carry. Have one entry/exit into the school with an armed guard.

I think it starts before that though. Getting a gun "legally" needs to get a lot tougher. There should be a 20 question psych evaluation questionnaire completed before you even go to step 2. Medical records should be linked to background checks as well. If you are in the system for EVER being linked to mental health care and/or medication for it, your gun purchase goes into a different category for further evaluation. I also believe a gun purchase should go through a law enforcement agency first rather than a store clerk at Bass Pro Shop. And just maybe if the FBI gets tips about someone about to go crazy and shoot someone that should be followed up on instead of chasing a Russia collusion (oh wait... obstruction of justice) hoax. My God the kid himself said he wanted to be a professional school shooter. Hello? A lot you can do before we have to take drastic measures to tighten this thing up. And it's not going to go away. Sadly, we will be having this conversation again.

p.s. Please stop about blaming the guns or gun laws. WTF? Seriously? What has the gun been charged with? I thought it was a gun free zone? Maybe a few more signs around would have stopped him? Maybe a new law that labeled it a REALLY gun free zone?
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:40 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by sachiko View Post
Champlain Islander and flags make some good points. I'm basically in favor of allowing concealed carry in schools. But I say that with reservations. In the first place, the way so many teachers dress, how do you tell the armed teacher from shooter? I also question the practice of cops going in with black outfits and ball caps. Are you readily distinguishable at first glance from a shooter with a black hoodie and ball cap?

A little advanced training should be required. Here are some suggestions for teachers.

If you hear shots.

1- Lock the door. Obviously, glass doors should be replaced with stout wooden doors.

2- Get your students down on the floor.

3- Don't try to be a hero. Leave that to the cops. Although the average suburban cop probably hasn't ever encountered a shooter, they at least have some training on which they can rely.

You could post security guards at the entrance, but any shooter with a half-baked plan will shoot the security guard first, even if he/she is armed.

I don't know how you can make a school completely secure. As was pointed out, schools and churches where weapons are banned are soft targets. Knowing that some of the people inside may be armed, might be a deterrent to some potential sickos.
Basic security is rings of security. Outer ring, middle ring, inner ring and lastly personal weapons. It might not stop them, but may slow then down enough for a reaction force to show up.

Security guards are basically trip wires, early warning.

Just a thought, but I've heard on numerous occasions it is just too expensive to try and secure a school. If you've noticed most government buildings are hardened, where ever they keep the money (banks) are hardened. But it is too expensive to harden schools?

And lastly don't count on security measures being real effective, the guys that design and install the stuff don't often think things through.

I don't exactly know how to say this, maybe you could help me out a little. There is a mental disconnect between how something appears, what people say it is and the reality. Example, they once had a power failure at a medium security building, all the electronic doors locked down. People trapped in one section of the building. Some were working diligently to restore the power. Some where contemplating ways to break through almost vault type doors, I could have told them the sheet rock walls would be a lot easier.. I found two emergency entrances and/or exits in less than few minutes. I'm not going to say how, but I will say one needed a ladder and the other a screw driver, and both took seconds, not minutes. I do remember one of the bureaucratic drones got really mad at me for defeating their system so easily. Another got really mad at me when they budgeted hundreds of thousands of dollars to further harden the building and I told him I could cure this particular problem with a few hundred dollars worth of self taping sheet metal screws.

What I'm saying is the appearance of security, what somebody says it is and what actually works, often has a large credibility gap. Most MFIC's are more concerned with the appearance of security than actual security.

Point is, people get pizzed when you mess with their preconceptions, their existing policy or basically their routine. Don't expect timely or effective results.

Last edited by MudderChuck; 02-19-2018 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:35 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by steviebiggun View Post
Where in any of my writings did I say anything about “FORCEING” someone to carry a gun. And as for me I have taken the proper courses so as I am able to carry in public, and if I had any doubts about using my handgun if need, I sure wouldn’t be carrying
Funny that you choose to pick one word out of my post and twist it around to bastardize the whole point!
If you had noticed, I stated "volunteer basis," at least twice! I only used my mother as an example of someone who should NOT be carrying!

On another point, as others have said, hiring one or more off-duty or retired officers and/or veterans to patrol the schools would even be a better idea than armed teachers!
Then there will be those screaming, "who's going to pay for it?" All the while stating, "the precious value of our children and human life!"
They would rather place the blame on an inanimate object, a tool, a gun! Which cannot do anything by itself!
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:25 AM
  #34  
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They could use the money to pay for it by getting rid of day care centers in school sand after school activities which amounts to baby sitting. They shouldn't be there to begin with.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:46 AM
  #35  
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It's sad that we have to be having this conversation. But talking about security reminds me of that joke about the two men out hunting. Upon encountering a warning about bears, one of them changes into running shoes.

School security is not a laughing matter, but the joke is a reminder that security does not have to cover all possibilities. It merely has to work.

We could issue a badge to each student, a new different colored one each term. An armed police officer or security guard would observe each badge. (Upon license plate renewal here, they issue a little plastic tab, different color for each year. Police know immediately if current or not.)

Ban back packs. Police are trained to recognize the possibility that someone might be carrying a weapon. Students accept the fact that they might be patted down for weapons., particularly in the wintertime. Not a perfect system, but puts up some serious hurdles for someone plotting mayhem.

I don't see the AR15 type gun as demonic. But the fact that someone can walk into a school carrying one after all the shootings that have occurred, tells me that someone just wasn't doing his/her job.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:33 PM
  #36  
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when i was growing up we never heard of school shooting or shootings of any sort---now lets take a look at what the difference is from the 50,s and 60,s to now---the vast majority of families had a father and a mother---today---most are 1 parent households-- if i got out of hand my dad would punish me good, my butt hurt for some time---now--hands off govt will control children-- the poor and needy did not even know they were poor and needy---govt has to take care of all the poor and needy now its their right-- most children knew about guns, saw then regularily if they themselves did not shoot them they were not scared of them--so to me its not the guns stupid its the eroding family and the govt being the parent
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:46 PM
  #37  
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yup, every truck on the school parking lot had a gun it the back glass, we never even thought about shooting someone.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:52 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by JagMagMan View Post
Funny that you choose to pick one word out of my post and twist it around to bastardize the whole point!
If you had noticed, I stated "volunteer basis," at least twice! I only used my mother as an example of someone who should NOT be carrying!

On another point, as others have said, hiring one or more off-duty or retired officers and/or veterans to patrol the schools would even be a better idea than armed teachers!
Then there will be those screaming, "who's going to pay for it?" All the while stating, "the precious value of our children and human life!"
They would rather place the blame on an inanimate object, a tool, a gun! Which cannot do anything by itself!
Jagmagman, I appoligize if I snapped at you their was no excuse for that. I must be getting a little thin skinned in my old age.. I just didn’t want any one here to think that I would suggest that someone should be forced into carrying. Again sorry
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:15 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by NY Bowhunter View Post
Not every teacher needs to be armed. Have a few well trained teachers in the school that carry. Have one entry/exit into the school with an armed guard.

I think it starts before that though. Getting a gun "legally" needs to get a lot tougher. There should be a 20 question psych evaluation questionnaire completed before you even go to step 2. Medical records should be linked to background checks as well. If you are in the system for EVER being linked to mental health care and/or medication for it, your gun purchase goes into a different category for further evaluation. I also believe a gun purchase should go through a law enforcement agency first rather than a store clerk at Bass Pro Shop. And just maybe if the FBI gets tips about someone about to go crazy and shoot someone that should be followed up on instead of chasing a Russia collusion (oh wait... obstruction of justice) hoax. My God the kid himself said he wanted to be a professional school shooter. Hello? A lot you can do before we have to take drastic measures to tighten this thing up. And it's not going to go away. Sadly, we will be having this conversation again.

p.s. Please stop about blaming the guns or gun laws. WTF? Seriously? What has the gun been charged with? I thought it was a gun free zone? Maybe a few more signs around would have stopped him? Maybe a new law that labeled it a REALLY gun free zone?
What's funny is that everything you described above (see emboldened text) is already the law. Recently, we've learned that the military does a poor job of filling this type of paperwork out and submitting it. Being held for psychiatric evaluation and dishonorable discharge both disqualify you to own, possess, purchase guns under federal law. The database is really a system that checks federal, state and military records to determine if a person is legal to buy a gun or not. It's called the NICS system and it's run by, you guessed it, the FBI. So everything you mentioned above is supposed to be happening, under federal law.

It's not as instantaneous nor does it have those dramatic optical moments but finding a way to force the Feds, military and local LE to comply and/or enforce the laws would do far more to prevent tragedies like this than simply demanding or even passing more gun laws that also won't get enforced (IMHO).

Last edited by CalHunter; 02-19-2018 at 07:26 PM. Reason: Clarity.
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Old 02-20-2018, 04:05 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Hatfield Hunter View Post
when i was growing up we never heard of school shooting or shootings of any sort---now lets take a look at what the difference is from the 50,s and 60,s to now---the vast majority of families had a father and a mother---today---most are 1 parent households-- if i got out of hand my dad would punish me good, my butt hurt for some time---now--hands off govt will control children-- the poor and needy did not even know they were poor and needy---govt has to take care of all the poor and needy now its their right-- most children knew about guns, saw then regularily if they themselves did not shoot them they were not scared of them--so to me its not the guns stupid its the eroding family and the govt being the parent
Totally agree. Would also like to add that removal of biblical teaching and divine conseguences have had a greater negative impact than most realize. Also, social media, has led to open bullying and ridicule to victims. People brag about their illegal actions. Others use the platforms like one would use a psychiatrist. Realistic video games where users are desensitized to shooting others is certainly having big impact.
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