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Indiana to allow residents to shoot officers during unlawful entry.

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Indiana to allow residents to shoot officers during unlawful entry.

Old 06-17-2012, 06:10 PM
  #21  
LBR
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There is no "war" on drugs. Prisons are full, there's little to no deterrent for criminals. Locally a guy shot his female cousin in the back with a shotgun over a marijuana ciggarette, killing her. He got 20 years. Probably get out in 5, with good behavior, with a free education.

Libs have pretty much killed the justice system. Prisons with cable, free health and dental, gyms, etc. etc. etc. One former inmate had talked about his time in--got a roof over his head, 3 hot meals and a bed, free medical...he even said "the sex ain't too bad, once you get used to it"...and when we get someone like Joe Arpio trying to make a difference, the idiot bho "justice dept" starts investigating him because making convicts wear pink is "demeaning"! Stupid......
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:34 PM
  #22  
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That's hitting the nail squarely on the head.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:44 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by hockeydad View Post
This would be an almost non-issue if America did the sensible thing and legalized drugs.
Actually, this is incorrect.

The death toll of innocents world wide runs into 10s of thousands.
This is true but the causes are generally for things other than drugs. More often, it's one party or group trying to seize power in countries that don't allow drugs.

Illegal drug profits fuel terrorism.
True.

The illegality of drugs fuels crime and violence and police state brutality.
Yes and no. Most "police states" seek to exist for reasons other than simply drugs.

The ware on drugs destabilize nations.
Yes and no. Many of those nations are unstable to begin with.

There is absolutely no denying it.
There is.

There are no turf battles over tobacco and alcohol.
True.

We a country outlaws something that its citizen's want, this is the result.
This last statement is true in the context of alcohol prohibition which arguably increased many gangs' income, including the mafia. However, more is at stake than simply arguing about whether the drug laws (and resultant "war") are justified or not.

Economically, the money/cost argument so often advanced by pro-drug enthusiasts in favor of legalizing drugs is a sham. Some drug dealers would go legitimate and pay taxes to the government and many would not because they don't want to share the profits. It isn't the tax revenue generator that drug proponents like to claim.

Any taxes used would not be enough to pay for all of the drug treatment programs needed by the increased # of junkies who would now have a "legitimate" disability. We would simply increase the costs of health-care and SS Disability in this country.

And the idea that legalizing drugs will reduce street drug prices and therefore reduce crime is ludicrous. A $20 bindle (1/4 gram of crank) might (not really) drop in price, let's say down to $10. In reality, drug pricing is a market driven pricing structure also and people are going to charge what the market will pay (in this case, it would most likely remain at $20 for the same bindle).

The druggie still has to steal enough money to pay for the $10 bindle (or more likely $20) since most of the druggies using illicit drugs do not have good paying jobs due to their drug induced flakiness and irresponsibility, etc. Since most stolen items net the thief maybe 10 cents on the dollar, the druggie will now have to steal $100 worth of stuff instead of $200. You might think great, now this guy will only steal half of my stuff that he would have stolen before but you probably won't be that lucky. This druggie thief is still going to steal the "items" that he/she thinks they can sell to some fence for drug money. In other words, the druggie isn't going to pass on you expensive camera and only steal your cheap one, or pass on your deluxe rifle, bicycle, etc. and only steal the cheap one. They are going to steal the same items and you will be out the same money.

So what is the end result of this legalize drugs theory postulated by the pro-drug crowd? It's simple. You will see more druggies, not less and prices will remain about the same. People will still commit crimes to obtain money for drugs and people will still rob other druggies to get drugs.

Want some anecdotal evidence? Just look at California's Prop 215 law that legalized "prescription" or medical marijuana. It is unreal how many 18 year olds now have medical marijuana cards because of some undescribed, undiagnosed and untreated "pain" that they just can't deal with unless they smoke marijuana. Whenever I've pointed out that they could get the same pain relief from a marijuana pill (Marinol or Idrasil) that provides the benefits of marijuana without the dangers of smoking or the estimated 400 chemicals in marijuana that are consumed when it's smoked, they always tell me it doesn't "work" as well. The honest ones just tell me that you can't get high from a marijuana pill.

So, IMHO, the war on drugs may be failing (a legitimate observation) but legalizing drugs isn't going to solve anything, just create more problems.

Last edited by CalHunter; 06-18-2012 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:10 AM
  #24  
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Cal,

I am not aware of any data that indicates drug usage would go up if it was legal. I and just about everybody I know experimented with drugs as a kid. The drug war is having ZERO impact on the availability of drugs... no impact whatsoever. I could provide data/studies to back this up, can you provide data/studies to prove that it is having some impact? I am not aware of a single positive benefit of the war on drugs. I am aware of freedoms we have surrendered to the war on drugs, I am aware of innocent persons killed by DEA agents in bad drug busts, I am aware of violent gang wars due to drug turf.

Can you imagine George Washington ordering his minions to break into people's houses based on suspicion that they were doing opium? Back in the BAD old days, people got arrested for harming other people not for what they put into their own body. We are as free as hamsters in a cage. Supporting the war on drugs is in actuality a vote for authoritarian government and a vote against personal freedom. I deny that the government has a right to know what I put into my own body. It is not their business UNLESS AND UNTIL I do harm to another person.

It really is sad to see NRA members who don't get it. Selective myopia.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:20 AM
  #25  
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There are no turf battles over tobacco and alcohol.
True.
It's rare, but I have to disagree with you here Cal. Sheriff Buford Pusser was shot 3 times (all attempts to murder him) over (illegal) alcohol.

People get arrested for smuggling ciggaretts on a regular basis, especially smuggling them into Canada and places like NYC where the taxes are super high.

Sex is legal, but it also a booming illegal "trade".

Any time there is an illegal trade, sooner or later there's going to be competition for that "turf".

As usual, you lay it out as to why you have the opinion you do, and why it's correct. Much better than the "because I said so" and run away that is so prevelant on message boards.

Last edited by LBR; 06-18-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:11 AM
  #26  
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HD, I don't have a study or even a link to "prove" what I posted about drug usage going up which is why I wrote "want some anecdotal evidence" in my post above. In my personal experience on Patrol, I noticed a lot of people with Medical Marijuana cards after the law passed. People I wouldn't have guessed used marijuana before. Also, many of these same people did not previously display symptoms of some type of chronic pain.

I realize that there is a certain percentage of the public that is going to use marijuana, regardless of its' legal status. However, i think the percentage of people using it has increased since marijuana was made legal in California. As I said before, this is my opinion based upon anecdotal experience in my neck of the woods. I could repeat some conversations I've had with marijuana users about this same subject but that would be anecdotal also.

I will freely concede that the war on drugs hasn't had a great effect upon the availability of drugs but would have to disagree with "zero effect."

Regarding your other statements:

I am not aware of a single positive benefit of the war on drugs.
One that readily comes to mind is anti-drug education which has arguably helped lots of kids make better choices.

I am aware of freedoms we have surrendered to the war on drugs,
Could you please elaborate on which "freedoms" you have surrendered due to the war on drugs?

I am aware of innocent persons killed by DEA agents in bad drug busts,
I am sure this has happened sometime unfortunately. I am not aware of an epidemic but would readily concede that one is too many.

Can you imagine George Washington ordering his minions to break into people's houses based on suspicion that they were doing opium?
Or drinking more than 20 ounces of soda in a single cup? Or eating junk food at a school? There is a long list of government violations of people's rights and it appears to be growing with several elected administrations that do not list their party as Republican.

Back in the BAD old days, people got arrested for harming other people not for what they put into their own body.
And today, we allow burglars to sue homeowners for slippery door mats, etc. Go figure.

We are as free as hamsters in a cage.
Pretty cynical and obviously a stretch. There are a few parallels though.

Supporting the war on drugs is in actuality a vote for authoritarian government and a vote against personal freedom.
Aside from people who want to use drugs, most people support the war on drugs because they don't want their children and families exposed to drugs and the inherent crime that seems to follow it everywhere, legalized or not. The overwhelming majority of this group do not wish to lose personal freedoms in the process.

I deny that the government has a right to know what I put into my own body.
See above comments about soda and junk food usage.

It is not their business UNLESS AND UNTIL I do harm to another person.
Does this mean that government (and therefore the rest of us who pay taxes and foot the proverbial bill) no longer have to pay for your ER visits, SS disability, etc. I realize you have medical care and a job but the majority of illegal drug users do not and we are really arguing about them and not your personal usage.

It really is sad to see NRA members who don't get it.
Actually, most NRA members (at least the ones I've spoken with) do "get it." They realize that legal drugs does increase the level of anarchy and personal defense incidents. Also, most NRA members do not use drugs and don't want their children, spouses and families exposed to druggies.

Selective myopia.
Pot calling the kettle black? Each side will claim the other doesn't see the "big picture" and is therefore missing critical information that is relevant. At the heart of this matter is the age old deliberation upon personal freedom--To wit, at what point does your personal freedom either harm or have a negative effect upon the personal freedom of another.
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