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Environmental smokescreens

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Environmental smokescreens

Old 11-26-2008, 10:27 AM
  #1  
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Default Environmental smokescreens

Heres a local story:
As many of you know, western Montana was hit hard with fires in 2001. Once the fire passed there were millions of board feet of standing dead timber. A local log home company: Rocky Mountain Log Homes sought a federal permit to harvest the dead timber from the USFS. The permit was granted but before the timber sale could be activated, the sale was contested on EIS grounds by a "local" greengroup called Friends of the BItterroot. Now, these groups need not win the suit, as standing dead timber has a relatively short usuable lifespan, so simply tieing it up in court for a few years is enough to make the timber worthless, and thats exactly what happened. Friends of the Bitterroot championed their victory and sent out news letters highlighting their victory and asking for more donations to continue "the good fight". Meanwhile, last year Rocky Mountain Log Homes signed a contract with a Canadian supplier to cut and harvest green live trees. So now the dead timber behind their log yard has gone to waste, green live trees are cut instead of dead trees, and their trucks a lumbering across the state back and forth to take delivery. The Canadins are making the money on the logging, and the locals here looking for work. Is this really an environmental victory? How shallow can we be? I think this true story is a perfect example of the fallacy of environmentalism. Is there anything in America that has cost us more money the environmentalist?
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:04 AM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

The Canadins are making the money on the logging, and the locals here looking for work. Is this really an environmental victory? How shallow can we be? I think this true story is a perfect example of the fallacy of environmentalism. Is there anything in America that has cost us more money the environmentalist?

The hateful "environmental" nutsoids havedone very same thingin numerous other burned over areas.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:38 AM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

Muley, I've been hearing about this story as well as some stories about how the logging industry in the Bitterroot Valley has been pretty much wiped out by out of state politicians for afew years now. The stories are coming from a long time resident of the valley and owner of a log home company also in the valley. I believe he also has to get most if not all of his logs from Canada also. It is completely backwards and has been a very damaging to the local economy.

Have you heard about the dams up in the bitterroots needing repair and the problems that all that dead wood, thatwas not being allowed to be cleared, is causing to the head-gates. I was talking to a neighbor, and he was telling me that the ex-loggers they hired to finally clear the wood out and help repair the dams had to go though a federal training program to be able to operate a chainsaw in wilderness land.

Another thing I have been seeing and dealing with is trying to work with the flood plains administartor for Ravalli County, sheis out of control. She told my father-in-law that she could fine him for leaving a foot print in the flood plain. All he wanted to do was repair an existing access road. She has even gotten involved (required her approval) in stuff he is doing outside the flood plain. If I'm not mistaken there are already multiple law suits against her by developers and builders.

When I first went up and spent time and worked in that area, I was very surprised how many regulations have found their way inthere. I also am able to look right past them/deal with them while I am there because I am only up there about 2 months out of the year, but Ifeel for the residents that this is happening to. I have met some of the most genuine, independent, strong moralled, hard working, patrioticpeople I know in that area.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:34 PM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

If you want to see some environmental nut cases over public land come to California.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:12 PM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

ORIGINAL: bitterroot21

Muley, I've been hearing about this story as well as some stories about how the logging industry in the Bitterroot Valley has been pretty much wiped out by out of state politicians for afew years now. The stories are coming from a long time resident of the valley and owner of a log home company also in the valley. I believe he also has to get most if not all of his logs from Canada also. It is completely backwards and has been a very damaging to the local economy.

Have you heard about the dams up in the bitterroots needing repair and the problems that all that dead wood, thatwas not being allowed to be cleared, is causing to the head-gates. I was talking to a neighbor, and he was telling me that the ex-loggers they hired to finally clear the wood out and help repair the dams had to go though a federal training program to be able to operate a chainsaw in wilderness land.

Another thing I have been seeing and dealing with is trying to work with the flood plains administartor for Ravalli County, sheis out of contromiddle class.l. She told my father-in-law that she could fine him for leaving a foot print in the flood plain. All he wanted to do was repair an existing access road. She has even gotten involved (required her approval) in stuff he is doing outside the flood plain. If I'm not mistaken there are already multiple law suits against her by developers and builders.

When I first went up and spent time and worked in that area, I was very surprised how many regulations have found their way inthere. I also am able to look right past them/deal with them while I am there because I am only up there about 2 months out of the year, but Ifeel for the residents that this is happening to. I have met some of the most genuine, independent, strong moralled, hard working, patrioticpeople I know in that area.
Intresting story here in the root. What has happened to this area has been disgusting and outrageous. This used to be a mecca, and now it has turned into crap. Back in the 70's loggers were making a very nice living, housing was cheap and few people lived here. Then then the onslaught of the liberal migration began. They moved here in droves and pushed the housing cost out of sight. Next the property values increased and ranchers became land rich and money poor, and of course began selling agricultural lands for development one parcel at a time to pay their property tax. That, however, wasn't enough for the liberals. They formed environmental groups and said to the locals, you people are too stupid to run your natural resources, and they slowly but surely shut down logging. The jobs were gone and so was the middle class. Pulp, lumber, and particle board mills quickly followed suit, and were gone. Just recently, the Bonner mill shut its doors after providing good paying jobs for decades. Still, it wasn't enough for the liberals. Next the pushed for the wolf introduction and rammed that down the locals throats andwhen that was accomplished, it still wasn't enough.Then theywent after roads and getting them closed. Still, the closures are not enough. Now they seek to decomission them all togather and eliminate motorized trails. There is a push to pass wide sweeping Rocky Mountain Ecosystem wilderness areas, were no motorized travel is allowed. Plum creek lumber has recently begun selling real estate for development, as the logging is to difficult to get passed and the law suits are never ending. Now there will be houses where logging cuts once were, I ask again is this an environmental victory? Where does it all end? Do we tear down the dams, roads, buildings and all go back to hunting and gathering? It makes no sense, and environmentalism has cost this country so dearly the list is never ending. It seems that it is the MO of liberal ideology, to start with a pretty decent concept but go way to far. Civil rights turned into affirmative action and reverse descrimination. Womens sufferage turned into a pro-abortion movement. Racial tolerance turned into PC garbage and limited free speech. Organized laborand workers rights turned into parasitic socialist thugs. Cleaning up the environment turned into green whackos and environmetal extremism. The list again goes on and on.[&o]
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

ORIGINAL: muley699

Intresting story here in the root. What has happened to this area has been disgusting and outrageous. This used to be a mecca, and now it has turned into crap. Back in the 70's loggers were making a very nice living, housing was cheap and few people lived here. Then then the onslaught of the liberal migration began. They moved here in droves and pushed the housing cost out of sight. Next the property values increased and ranchers became land rich and money poor, and of course began selling agricultural lands for development one parcel at a time to pay their property tax. That, however, wasn't enough for the liberals. They formed environmental groups and said to the locals, you people are too stupid to run your natural resources, and they slowly but surely shut down logging. The jobs were gone and so was the middle class. Pulp, lumber, and particle board mills quickly followed suit, and were gone. Just recently, the Bonner mill shut its doors after providing good paying jobs for decades. Still, it wasn't enough for the liberals. Next the pushed for the wolf introduction and rammed that down the locals throats andwhen that was accomplished, it still wasn't enough.Then theywent after roads and getting them closed. Still, the closures are not enough. Now they seek to decomission them all togather and eliminate motorized trails. There is a push to pass wide sweeping Rocky Mountain Ecosystem wilderness areas, were no motorized travel is allowed. Plum creek lumber has recently begun selling real estate for development, as the logging is to difficult to get passed and the law suits are never ending. Now there will be houses where logging cuts once were, I ask again is this an environmental victory? Where does it all end? Do we tear down the dams, roads, buildings and all go back to hunting and gathering? It makes no sense, and environmentalism has cost this country so dearly the list is never ending. It seems that it is the MO of liberal ideology, to start with a pretty decent concept but go way to far. Civil rights turned into affirmative action and reverse descrimination. Womens sufferage turned into a pro-abortion movement. Racial tolerance turned into PC garbage and limited free speech. Organized laborand workers rights turned into parasitic socialist thugs. Cleaning up the environment turned into green whackos and environmetal extremism. The list again goes on and on.[&o]
Muley, I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded statement. Moderation and common sense get overtaken by extremism and agendas when politics is involved.

I would have loved to see the valley the way you describe it before the inundation of people. In my opinion it is still a gem and I feel lucky just to visit the place. I know that is no consolation coming from me.

You mentionedthe wolf introduction, I would be really interested to hear about the effects this has had on the Elk location and herd numbers, as well as other effects from a resident. I have spoken to a few residents about this and not a single good thing has been said. Are the wolves moving down out of the Bitterroots at all? To the valley? To the Sapphires? Are they going to bring the grizzlies back in too? I'm not up on all this stuff but very interested in it.

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Old 11-26-2008, 05:38 PM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

ORIGINAL: bitterroot21

ORIGINAL: muley699

Intresting story here in the root. What has happened to this area has been disgusting and outrageous. This used to be a mecca, and now it has turned into crap. Back in the 70's loggers were making a very nice living, housing was cheap and few people lived here. Then then the onslaught of the liberal migration began. They moved here in droves and pushed the housing cost out of sight. Next the property values increased and ranchers became land rich and money poor, and of course began selling agricultural lands for development one parcel at a time to pay their property tax. That, however, wasn't enough for the liberals. They formed environmental groups and said to the locals, you people are too stupid to run your natural resources, and they slowly but surely shut down logging. The jobs were gone and so was the middle class. Pulp, lumber, and particle board mills quickly followed suit, and were gone. Just recently, the Bonner mill shut its doors after providing good paying jobs for decades. Still, it wasn't enough for the liberals. Next the pushed for the wolf introduction and rammed that down the locals throats andwhen that was accomplished, it still wasn't enough.Then theywent after roads and getting them closed. Still, the closures are not enough. Now they seek to decomission them all togather and eliminate motorized trails. There is a push to pass wide sweeping Rocky Mountain Ecosystem wilderness areas, were no motorized travel is allowed. Plum creek lumber has recently begun selling real estate for development, as the logging is to difficult to get passed and the law suits are never ending. Now there will be houses where logging cuts once were, I ask again is this an environmental victory? Where does it all end? Do we tear down the dams, roads, buildings and all go back to hunting and gathering? It makes no sense, and environmentalism has cost this country so dearly the list is never ending. It seems that it is the MO of liberal ideology, to start with a pretty decent concept but go way to far. Civil rights turned into affirmative action and reverse descrimination. Womens sufferage turned into a pro-abortion movement. Racial tolerance turned into PC garbage and limited free speech. Organized laborand workers rights turned into parasitic socialist thugs. Cleaning up the environment turned into green whackos and environmetal extremism. The list again goes on and on.[&o]
Muley, I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded statement. Moderation and common sense get overtaken by extremism and agendas when politics is involved.

I would have loved to see the valley the way you describe it before the inundation of people. In my opinion it is still a gem and I feel lucky just to visit the place. I know that is no consolation coming from me.

You mentionedthe wolf introduction, I would be really interested to hear about the effects this has had on the Elk location and herd numbers, as well as other effects from a resident. I have spoken to a few residents about this and not a single good thing has been said. Are the wolves moving down out of the Bitterroots at all? To the valley? To the Sapphires? Are they going to bring the grizzlies back in too? I'm not up on all this stuff but very interested in it.
To answer your wolf question, look no further than my state, Wisconsin. The DNR brought wolves back a while ago, and they have been wrecking havoc on the whitetail population here. They played a huge part in the 50 percent drop in registered deer numbers this hunting season. The DNR denies it, but they are lying SOB's on everything they do. I doubt that elk would be no different.
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

We need a "Conservationist" movement to combat the "Environmentalist" movement.
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Old 11-27-2008, 03:43 PM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

ORIGINAL: muley699

Heres a local story:
As many of you know, western Montana was hit hard with fires in 2001. Once the fire passed there were millions of board feet of standing dead timber. A local log home company: Rocky Mountain Log Homes sought a federal permit to harvest the dead timber from the USFS. The permit was granted but before the timber sale could be activated, the sale was contested on EIS grounds by a "local" greengroup called Friends of the BItterroot. Now, these groups need not win the suit, as standing dead timber has a relatively short usuable lifespan, so simply tieing it up in court for a few years is enough to make the timber worthless, and thats exactly what happened. Friends of the Bitterroot championed their victory and sent out news letters highlighting their victory and asking for more donations to continue "the good fight". Meanwhile, last year Rocky Mountain Log Homes signed a contract with a Canadian supplier to cut and harvest green live trees. So now the dead timber behind their log yard has gone to waste, green live trees are cut instead of dead trees, and their trucks a lumbering across the state back and forth to take delivery. The Canadins are making the money on the logging, and the locals here looking for work. Is this really an environmental victory? How shallow can we be? I think this true story is a perfect example of the fallacy of environmentalism. Is there anything in America that has cost us more money the environmentalist?
Pretty much the same thing happend here a few years back, except the Sierra Club filed the lawsuit [:@][:@]
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:38 AM
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Default RE: Environmental smokescreens

ORIGINAL: Centauri


To answer your wolf question, look no further than my state, Wisconsin. The DNR brought wolves back a while ago, and they have been wrecking havoc on the whitetail population here. They played a huge part in the 50 percent drop in registered deer numbers this hunting season. The DNR denies it, but they are lying SOB's on everything they do. I doubt that elk would be no different.
Centauri, Thanks for the input on the Whitetail. However I think that there are some differences between the effects onElk and Whitetail. If I am not mistaken Elk will herd up and travel to winter grounds as a herd (100's and more). If the wolves are harrassing the travel routes of these herds, they adjust as a herd by relocated to different winter grounds as a mass group. I don't think this is the same for whitetail. I don't know that the wolves have as big an impact on the overall numbers of the Elk herd as they do on the Whitetail numbers because basically the Elk's size and group numbers work more in their favor against the wolves.

I however am very green when it comes to understanding Elk. That is why I was asking Muley about that area of Montana. That area of Montana in the past has held a massive number of Elk and I have heard from a couple of locals (at the lumberyard andhome center) that the wolves in the Bitterroot Mountains have been running the Elk out of any area they move into.

I suppose it is a similar situation, It all comes back to Muley's original post questioning the "Environmental Smokescreens". Why would these people,even when seeing the effects firsthand and hearing from the locals it is impacting, not back down from such a poor idea?
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