HuntingNet.com Forums

HuntingNet.com Forums (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/)
-   Politics (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/politics-16/)
-   -   Opinion from veterans (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/politics/271957-opinion-veterans.html)

cr422 11-12-2008 11:36 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
First of all, I'll say that I am an Army veteran and I am opposed to the admission of open homosexuals in the military.It raises too many opportunities for conflict and a breakdown in team spirit.

Men and women are separated in the military because men and women are sexually attracted to each other and will, left to their own devices, attempt to form pair bonds.Now this will happen even if they are housed separately.But separate housing avoids sexual activity within their living quarters.

Homosexuals present a unique problem because, not only are they attracted to persons of the same sex, but, as a result of their orientation, are sexually attracted to each other.This again creates a situation resulting in sexual activity within communal living quarters.So, for example, housing male homosexuals with the women would not eliminate sexual activity within living quarters.

So what is the solution? There is no doubt in my mind that homosexuals, pedophiles, and others with deviant sexual desires have served honorably in our military. We likely have people like that living in our neighborhoods, accepted by everyone, accepted because they haven't gone public with their oddity.

For all I know, one or more of the guys with whom I shared living quarters while in the Army may have been some sort of sexual deviant. But he kept it to himself (if he was) and I had no idea I was serving with a homosexual, pedophile, or what have you.

So, again, what is the solution?Don't ask don't tell is the solution. If you don't ask, you don't force someone who wants to serve his/her country to lie or forgo service. And if someone possessing some out of the mainstream sexual proclivity keeps quiet, no one knows and there is no occasion for conflict.

mudhead1s wife 11-12-2008 11:41 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: NavyDeerHunter
So, this gives them more rights than I get. Them being in "the same place we put them now" means that they will have the ability to OPENLY stare, check me out, hit on me or whatever and get away with it. I on the other hand, if I want to avoid that type of behavior, I have to change my routine so thatIlimit exposure to them? When I'm in a co-habitation situation with other straight guys I'm pretty comfortable becasue I know that they are minding their business and not checking me out. If I were in a co-habitation situation with gays I'd always be on alert wondering if they were eyeing me. This would be just like a womans reaction to a co-ed situation...they would alway be on guard.
No thanks.
No, an ability is not the same as a right. As I said before, people check out other people all the time. It's not always sexual. You can't stop it. They will check you out in formation. They will check you out on a PT run. They will check you out as you perform PM on your vehicle. They will check you out while you are at the firing range. The only way to avoid being checked out is to withdraw from society completely. No one has the right to not be checked out. No one has the right to not be hit on (assuming we mean a sexual advance not physical violence). You have the right to turn down a sexual advance from anybody. It is unreasonable to expect that you will never be checked out.
Here is how I view being hit on. When a homosexual man hits on a heterosexual man, he has now crossed the line into sexual harrassment. But you see being that it is men and they should be tough and all that other jazz people vomit from their mouths nothing is said. Why should anyone have to deal with that? Why should anyone have to watch their back on both sides because they can't express the self control that an American Soldier should have? Why should the majority be subjected to having to walk around naked in front of others who possibly find them sexually attractive? I tell you what, I know a lot of men who would start showering in there drawers for that reason. And you can call it what you will it is their right to not want to be exposed sexually to anyone against their will.

I won't shower in public places because Ichoose not to be exposed in that manner. I for many yearsrefused to have female doctors because in the case of a female if she has a male doctor another person has to be in theroom during exams, with a female doctor that is not the case. Youcall it homophobia I call it protecting myself from not being victimized again.
As dosome of the men here, and for those who haven't protecting themselves from it happening in the first place.
Sexual Assault and harrassment is nojoke and it should not be taken lightly RB. It doesn't matter if you are a soft woman such as myself or a big tough man who fights war it none the less has damaging effects. Why would you want to put your fellow coutrymen into the line of fire?

If it happened the way you wanted it how manystraight men and women would not sign up to be in the military for this very reason? Because they are not protected?

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 12:43 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: mudhead1s wife
If it happened the way you wanted it how manystraight men and women would not sign up to be in the military for this very reason? Because they are not protected?
That is the most interesting question I have seen in this thread. I would hope, none. I may be an optimisticidealist. I just think there wouldn't be a problem if negative attitudes could be changed and existing regulations enforced. I think our country would be stronger if that would happen. That's the opinion of this veteran. I know others may disagree.

mudhead1s wife 11-12-2008 01:00 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: mudhead1s wife
If it happened the way you wanted it how manystraight men and women would not sign up to be in the military for this very reason? Because they are not protected?
That is the most interesting question I have seen in this thread. I would hope, none. I may be an optimisticidealist. I just think there wouldn't be a problem if negative attitudes could be changed and existing regulations enforced. I think our country would be stronger if that would happen. That's the opinion of this veteran. I know others may disagree.
I know you mean well RB and to not have segregation is ideal but in reality in order for the Soldiers now serving to be given equal treatment they would have to be segregated. I know I chose not to be in the military for my own reasons but to be honest if I knew I would have to shower with lesbians and bisexuals, I wouldn't sign up, because I would feel I wasn't be protected. I have been victimized enough and would refuse to be subjected to that again.

I have another question also, I know the women are in different housing, do they also have women as superiors over them or is it just segregated as far as housing?

BigTiny 11-12-2008 01:24 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 


ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: BigTiny
RB, most women get sexually aroused when they are being raped. Same for a man, BTW. Doesn't mean that's what they want.

I think someone at Cornell wanted an excuse to measure something they were interested in.:D
The Cornell researcher didn't measure arousal. The University of Georgia researchers did. Read the paper. If it didn't mean anything, the homophobic men would have shown the same result as the non-homophobic men. That's why they tested both groups the same.
As much as I would like to take a good swipe at UGA, I will refrain. The arousal levels were probably due to a higher testosterone level in the subject. That would also explain the "homophobia". Did they do a corollary for testosterone levels in each subject?

You use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than enlightenment.

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 01:30 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Men and women serve in the same unit under the same chain of command.Gender doesn't matter there. Female soldiers served under male officers and NCO's. A female officer was in command of an all male platoon.

In my barracks, women had one hallway and one bathroomto themselves in the same building as us men. They only roomed with other women. In the field, they shared a tent with other women, just a few feet from the men's tents. If there were no other women, they slept alone.

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 02:00 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: BigTiny
As much as I would like to take a good swipe at UGA, I will refrain. The arousal levels were probably due to a higher testosterone level in the subject. That would also explain the "homophobia". Did they do a corollary for testosterone levels in each subject?

You use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than enlightenment.
Really? You think that homophobic men have more testoterone than non-homophobic men and this accounts for the results? You didn't read the paper.


The stimuli were 4-min segments of explicit erotic videotapes depicting consensual adult heterosexual activity, consensual male homosexual activity, and consensual female homosexual activity.

The lesbian videotape was included because it has been shown to be highly sexually arousing to heterosexual men and is a better descriminator between heterosexual and homosexual men than other stimuli.

There were no significant group differences for the heterosexual or lesbian videos, indicating that the reports of arousal were were consistent with penile responses. However, there remained a significant difference between groups for the male homosexual video, to which homophobic men continued to display more penile erection after subjective arousal was statistically controlled.

The results of this study indicate that individuals who score in the homophobic range and admit negative affect towards homosexuality demonstrate significant sexual arousal to male homosexual erotic stimuli.
They showed the men heterosexual videos and there was no difference in their response. They showed the men female homosexual videos and there was no difference in their response. They showed the men male homosexual videos and the homophobic men responded significantly higher. How do you blame that on alleged testosterone levels?

NavyDeerHunter 11-12-2008 02:00 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
BS. If I'm in living conditions with other straight men, I have no worries that they are checking me out in the same way a gay man would. Okay, if I'm a body builder they may look at me and think "man, that dude is built", or if I'm covered in tats they may look and comment on that, but not looking at me in a sexually disturbing, unnatural way. I feel that a gay man would be checking me out like we men would normally check out a woman...if we had the chance.


ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: NavyDeerHunter
So, this gives them more rights than I get. Them being in "the same place we put them now" means that they will have the ability to OPENLY stare, check me out, hit on me or whatever and get away with it. I on the other hand, if I want to avoid that type of behavior, I have to change my routine so thatIlimit exposure to them? When I'm in a co-habitation situation with other straight guys I'm pretty comfortable becasue I know that they are minding their business and not checking me out. If I were in a co-habitation situation with gays I'd always be on alert wondering if they were eyeing me. This would be just like a womans reaction to a co-ed situation...they would alway be on guard.
No thanks.
No, an ability is not the same as a right. As I said before, people check out other people all the time. It's not always sexual. You can't stop it. They will check you out in formation. They will check you out on a PT run. They will check you out as you perform PM on your vehicle. They will check you out while you are at the firing range. The only way to avoid being checked out is to withdraw from society completely. No one has the right to not be checked out. No one has the right to not be hit on (assuming we mean a sexual advance not physical violence). You have the right to turn down a sexual advance from anybody. It is unreasonable to expect that you will never be checked out.

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 02:20 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: NavyDeerHunter
I feel that a gay man would be checking me out like we men would normally check out a woman...if we had the chance.
Is it wrong for you to check out a woman? Is it wrong for a woman to check you out? Is it wrong for a fat ugly woman to check you out?

NavyDeerHunter 11-12-2008 05:14 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
None of the circumstances you just mentioned would be the same as being in close "Living Quarters" with the gay. That is exactly why the seperate us.


ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: NavyDeerHunter
I feel that a gay man would be checking me out like we men would normally check out a woman...if we had the chance.
Is it wrong for you to check out a woman? Is it wrong for a woman to check you out? Is it wrong for a fat ugly woman to check you out?

C. Davis 11-12-2008 05:23 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker

I didn't realize that the University of Georgia was a two-bit college. I was actually considering sending my daughter there. Thanks for the heads-up.

I was referring to their so called science researches. Not the college itself.The fact that they would do a whole study on "Homophobes" tells me a lot about theirintentions. I think if a gay man makes a pass at another man he should be prepared for the rise in testosterone levels and the right hook that justifiably follows.

I think the best argument against gays being open in the military is I don't think the military is the place for social experimentation and social engineering. I have a feeling there will be a lot of that happening to the military in the next hopefully only 4 years.

C. Davis

bigbulls 11-12-2008 08:28 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbulls

I am talking about if gays were 100% openly allowed to serve in the military.

#1. Where do you house gay men. Do you house them with the men, with the women, or by themselves as a third sex.

#2. Where do you house the gay women? Do you house them with the women, with the men, or by themselves as a fourth sex?
[/blockquote]


The same place we put them now. Segregating them would be a bigger mistake than kicking them out.
Since we don't officially put them anywhere right now I will ask youagain.

If the military were to become 100% open to homosexuals then where do they sleep and shower? Especially in the Navy on board a ship that is already using every available space for something else.

A gay man looks at another man the same sexual way that a man looks at a woman and vise versa. This iswhy women and mendo not share the same berthing areas.This is the same reason that gay men can not share the same areas as straight men.

So, how do you arrange them in their sleeping, showering, and toilets areas?

vc1111 11-12-2008 10:38 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

So, how do you arrange them in their sleeping, showering, and toilets areas?
Allow the to redecorate the head, you know, some nice pillow throws and window treatments, that sort of thing. From what I've seen they are a preferred class of interior decorator.

no_skill 11-13-2008 03:29 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: LBR


Is this an idea whose time has come
NO! Most soldiers have open bay showers, share a room with several others, etc. It's demoralizing, besides opening up a whole 'nother can of worms as far as "sexual harrassment", "hate crimes" etc. are concerned. We don't need that garbage in the military.

Chad
I'm not a fag but this is my opinion

As a person that serves in the Military now, I have been to Germany, Fort Bragg, Bort Benning and Fort Leonardwood. I can honestly say I don't care if gays in the military express themselves openly. As long as they aren't kissing and such in public or in the barracks... How would you feel if a Army buddy asked you to hit the bar with them and the next thing you know your at a gay bar, so being up front about it would be alot easier on the soldiers rather than hiding it. Not only that but seems to me Gays are willing to go out and Die for their country while most people in the states didn't have the balls to sign up for it, so who are those people to judge them?

Just me ranting, I think every male should serve 2 years in the military after highschool. I also think that people that haven't been in the military and open their mouth about it should just stfu (guy down the road is so gungho about the marines talking about how much better of a soldier they are compared to the Army but I think otherwise)... I also think that most of the gays in the military will break their back for someone unlike your uperclass buisness executives... Another opinion of mine if you served are serving in the military you are by far a higher caliber person, such as to help a fellow when in trouble.

As far as the showers and bay's go.... Yeah they are usually open bay's but not the showers they are in basic training but thats it, out of all 4 stations I've been to I haven't seen one open shower except in Leonardwood in basic training. The regular units don't have open bay though.

For a young man this day and age that doesn't pursue a college education, and denies the military is absolutely nuts. I see E-2's running around in brand new vehicles and nice stuff. On top of that in 6months up to E-4 your automatically promoted to the next pay grade... By the end your making 1800$ a month before taxes and if your single no kids no college education your an idiot. Best job in the world good pay, good benefits, and most importantly great respect. Once your an E-5 your making about 2200$ a month...

One more thing about the military, I can't stand the fact that we have these go soft rules... It's the new sensitive to your feelings army and thats why most of our soldiers aren't as blood and guts go getters anymore. Not to mention the government won't let us go, when we go to war... These wars would have been over a long time ago if we were allowed to do what was needed (not bombing either) Thats why I'm going to Ranger school before I go to Iraq. Rangers make their own ROE... The past army was full of Tough as Nails hard guys, and now we have a bunch of softies.

mudhead1s wife 11-13-2008 02:49 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: no_skill


ORIGINAL: LBR


Is this an idea whose time has come
NO! Most soldiers have open bay showers, share a room with several others, etc. It's demoralizing, besides opening up a whole 'nother can of worms as far as "sexual harrassment", "hate crimes" etc. are concerned. We don't need that garbage in the military.

Chad
I'm not a fag but this is my opinion

As a person that serves in the Military now, I have been to Germany, Fort Bragg, Bort Benning and Fort Leonardwood. I can honestly say I don't care if gays in the military express themselves openly. As long as they aren't kissing and such in public or in the barracks... How would you feel if a Army buddy asked you to hit the bar with them and the next thing you know your at a gay bar, so being up front about it would be alot easier on the soldiers rather than hiding it. Not only that but seems to me Gays are willing to go out and Die for their country while most people in the states didn't have the balls to sign up for it, so who are those people to judge them?

Just me ranting, I think every male should serve 2 years in the military after highschool. I also think that people that haven't been in the military and open their mouth about it should just stfu (guy down the road is so gungho about the marines talking about how much better of a soldier they are compared to the Army but I think otherwise)... I also think that most of the gays in the military will break their back for someone unlike your uperclass buisness executives... Another opinion of mine if you served are serving in the military you are by far a higher caliber person, such as to help a fellow when in trouble.

As far as the showers and bay's go.... Yeah they are usually open bay's but not the showers they are in basic training but thats it, out of all 4 stations I've been to I haven't seen one open shower except in Leonardwood in basic training. The regular units don't have open bay though.

For a young man this day and age that doesn't pursue a college education, and denies the military is absolutely nuts. I see E-2's running around in brand new vehicles and nice stuff. On top of that in 6months up to E-4 your automatically promoted to the next pay grade... By the end your making 1800$ a month before taxes and if your single no kids no college education your an idiot. Best job in the world good pay, good benefits, and most importantly great respect. Once your an E-5 your making about 2200$ a month...

One more thing about the military, I can't stand the fact that we have these go soft rules... It's the new sensitive to your feelings army and thats why most of our soldiers aren't as blood and guts go getters anymore. Not to mention the government won't let us go, when we go to war... These wars would have been over a long time ago if we were allowed to do what was needed (not bombing either) Thats why I'm going to Ranger school before I go to Iraq. Rangers make their own ROE... The past army was full of Tough as Nails hard guys, and now we have a bunch of softies.


My husband Josh worked with a couple of guys who went to the Rangers, they loved it. Ryan was a bit upset though because he was looking to go on another tour and waited a long time to be able to go again.

So do you think the Army is better than the Marines? I think they all serve their purpose. My dad was Army, my brother Marines, my grandpa and Josh's grandpa were Navy.A neighbor anda mentor in the Guards.So that is probably why I don't have a favorite. But I do know that for the most part you guys have a very healthy competition between branches. [8D]

RenaissanceBiker 11-13-2008 06:13 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls

Since we don't officially put them anywhere right now I will ask youagain.

If the military were to become 100% open to homosexuals then where do they sleep and shower? Especially in the Navy on board a ship that is already using every available space for something else.
Where do we officially put black soldiers? The same place we put everyone else. Every soldier is officially put somewhere. Homosexuals are not segregated. Why do you keep asking me this when I keep giving you the samesimple answer?


ORIGINAL: bigbulls
A gay man looks at another man the same sexual way that a man looks at a woman and vise versa. This iswhy women and mendo not share the same berthing areas.This is the same reason that gay men can not share the same areas as straight men.
Oh, because you don'tLIKE the answer. You keep trying to ask itdifferently until I can't help answering it the way you want. Try this, "Since allowing homosexuals to openly serve in the military will result in the END OF ALL LIFE ON EARTH, where should we put them?"

"Well obviously we should have them all rounded up and shot right away! Then we should throw their lifeless bodies into an active volcano. Then all areas within 50 miles of the volcano should be quarantined for at least a century. And we should nuke the volcano from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Happy?

no_skill 11-13-2008 08:16 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: bigbulls

Since we don't officially put them anywhere right now I will ask youagain.

If the military were to become 100% open to homosexuals then where do they sleep and shower? Especially in the Navy on board a ship that is already using every available space for something else.
Where do we officially put black soldiers? The same place we put everyone else. Every soldier is officially put somewhere. Homosexuals are not segregated. Why do you keep asking me this when I keep giving you the samesimple answer?


ORIGINAL: bigbulls
A gay man looks at another man the same sexual way that a man looks at a woman and vise versa. This iswhy women and mendo not share the same berthing areas.This is the same reason that gay men can not share the same areas as straight men.
Oh, because you don'tLIKE the answer. You keep trying to ask itdifferently until I can't help answering it the way you want. Try this, "Since allowing homosexuals to openly serve in the military will result in the END OF ALL LIFE ON EARTH, where should we put them?"

"Well obviously we should have them all rounded up and shot right away! Then we should throw their lifeless bodies into an active volcano. Then all areas within 50 miles of the volcano should be quarantined for at least a century. And we should nuke the volcano from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Happy?
Sounds a bit homophobic to me. I have no problem with the gays in the military, If they are willing to fight for our country than by all means join the Army or w/e... Their are alot of straight guys out their afraid to be shot while at war, so they in my books are cowards...I could understand if they had a family and didn't wish to join the army but thats different


As far as the Army being better than the Marines I can agree with it to a certain extent. The Marines are highly trained in Basic Training as the Army is just given familiarization. However the Army is way higher equipped than the Marines, causing the Army to be a bit more powerful than the Marines.

bigbulls 11-13-2008 08:55 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Where do we officially put black soldiers? The same place we put everyone else. Every soldier is officially put somewhere. Homosexuals are not segregated. Why do you keep asking me this when I keep giving you the samesimple answer?
I keep asking because you keep skirting the question. AllI want you to do is answer a question with out skirting it with nonsense.

I haven't changed the question at all. I just madethe same questionmore specific for you in hopes that you might be able to give a real answer instead of the lame "House them where they are now" B.S. knowing full well that we don't house them any where right now. They aren't officially allowed in the military.

I hope that you are smart enough to know, though you aren't acting like it,that housing gay men with stright men is EXACTLY the same thing as housing straight men with straight women and would come with at least as many problems as it would if straight men and women shared the same quarters, showers and toilets. Men and women are segregated for a reason.

Yourbringinguprace has absolutely nothing to do what so ever with homosexuality, nor does your "end of the Earth" and "shoot them all right now" BS.




I guess I should stop asking. I could probably get a more straight foward answer from one of my dogs in the back yard.:eek:







no_skill 11-13-2008 10:46 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls


Where do we officially put black soldiers? The same place we put everyone else. Every soldier is officially put somewhere. Homosexuals are not segregated. Why do you keep asking me this when I keep giving you the samesimple answer?
I keep asking because you keep skirting the question. AllI want you to do is answer a question with out skirting it with nonsense.

I haven't changed the question at all. I just madethe same questionmore specific for you in hopes that you might be able to give a real answer instead of the lame "House them where they are now" B.S. knowing full well that we don't house them any where right now. They aren't officially allowed in the military.

I hope that you are smart enough to know, though you aren't acting like it,that housing gay men with stright men is EXACTLY the same thing as housing straight men with straight women and would come with at least as many problems as it would if straight men and women shared the same quarters, showers and toilets. Men and women are segregated for a reason.

Yourbringinguprace has absolutely nothing to do what so ever with homosexuality, nor does your "end of the Earth" and "shoot them all right now" BS.




I guess I should stop asking. I could probably get a more straight foward answer from one of my dogs in the back yard.:eek:






I see what your saying now... I don't know how to answer it in one answer but I can answer it TWO answers...

1. Their is no Segregation in the military except for NCO, from enlisted, Officers, and women from men...

2. Gays are allowed in the military except the policy of don't ask don't tell is in play... Which means don't tell us and don't show us...

Does sex between soldiers of opposite sex happen yes... Does it happen between NCO, CO, enlisted yes. Does it happen between gays I don't know, as most are scared to lose their career if someone found out. It's not to make the gay feel bad its to keep him safe. Could you imagine a gay that is caught by a member of his platoon? What would happen to him if someone found out? Easy to answer he would be beaten and seriously injured by homophobics in the military and it's wrong... Do I think gays should be segregated no, because if they were everyone would know why they were segregated and they would be beaten and injured

RenaissanceBiker 11-14-2008 07:32 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
You claim we can't put homosexuals withheterosexual members of theireither gender (for some reason). You also claim we can't put homosexuals withother homosexuals. I guess then the only thing that would make you happy is for homosexual service members to be held in solitary confinement and only let out to perform their official duties. That's not practical. We can't keep them out of the military and we can't keep them in. What can we do? The problem is not with the homosexuals. The problem is how you feel about them. I'm sorry but you are just going to have to get over yourself. In thousands of years of human history, hate and persecution have not solved the "problem" of homosexuality. Do you think we haven't hated them enough or have we hated them too much?


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:56 PM.


Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.