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boysda 11-08-2008 02:03 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
this has grown tiresome, LBR.

I dodge nothing. I include race and gender comparitors to reference my original post on this topic: the same objections have been applied to integrating all 3 into the service. i presumed you could grasp the obvious. somehow we've managed to integrate the races andthe genders, and still the military survives. indeed, it bears repeating that, person for person, this is the most proficientmilitary we've ever fielded. we've even managed to recoconcile that thorny issue of where to bunk women.

you reference to pederasty and bestiality are, of course, ridiculous. the topic being discussed deals with activity between consenting adults. neither children nor animials have the capacity to consent.

at least you admit you feel women should not serve. i respect your intellectual consistency.

VC:

I wouldsuggest that history shows us that the military is never solely about proficiency; rather "fairness,"politics, or societal expectationalways factor into the equation. wedon't just care about fighting a war, we care about the way in which we fight the war. the key is, of course, balance.

from the battle of salamis in 480 B.C., where a spartan admiral was placed in command of a largely athenian fleet, to Ike's decision to prevent Patton from taking Berlin, to wilson's decision in 1917 that regiments would no longer be constituted based upon state of origin,to Truman's decision in 1948 to desegregate the military, certain military actions have been taken based upon societal expectations. each and every one of those decisions, at least initially, had a direct impact upon military proficiency.the most directly analagous was Truman's decision in '48, and we all recognizeit was the right thing to do, and the military is now the better for it. i suggest allowing homosexuals to openly serve, as they are serving already, is a similar scenario.

honky...



falcon 11-08-2008 05:22 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Not because they cannot do the job, just because of the problems it creates.

Females in the military are an operational necessity. Seems likemost of those brave, young patriots
who cheerleadthe Iraq war do not have the guts it takes to sgnon the dotted line and serve in the US military. :D:D

Lanse couche couche 11-09-2008 06:01 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
For some reason, the movie American Beauty keeps coming to mind when I read this thread[&:]

LBR 11-09-2008 10:05 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

this has grown tiresome, LBR.
I agree--but you have some of the most eloquent dodges to questions I've seen.


Females in the military are an operational necessity.
Really? How so? I'm glad nobody told that to the soldiers who fought in WWI and WWII.

Chad

boysda 11-09-2008 01:03 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: LBR


this has grown tiresome, LBR.
I agree--but you have some of the most eloquent dodges to questions I've seen.

good to see all that time in the courtroom didn't go to watse.

and you run an impressivemisdirection offense that would put any "wing T" coach to shame.

salut

falcon 11-09-2008 02:30 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Really? How so?

Because the US military cannot get enough males to fill the ranks. There are lots of females in the support units of the 82nd Airborne division. Females are dying in the holy war in Iraq. I heardyour kind of anti-femalecrap when females first came into the Army EOD program in the mid 1970s.Every oneof the ArmyEOD troops who whined about females in EOD were the lazy minimalistic drunks.It is my experience as a M/Sgt. that most of the charges against females in the entire Army are lodged bylazy, drunk and/or incompetent troops.

Now you tell me why all those young brave US maleRepublican hawks avoid the military and have no problem havingfemales serve in their places.

mudhead1s wife 11-09-2008 03:10 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: falcon


Not because they cannot do the job, just because of the problems it creates.

Females in the military are an operational necessity. Seems likemost of those brave, young patriots
who cheerleadthe Iraq war do not have the guts it takes to sgnon the dotted line and serve in the US military. :D:D

I chose not to serve. For many reasons but here are the main two. One I saw that my emotions would probably get in the way, I am to much of a mother hen. Two, growing up my dad was my hero, and literally. I have a deep and profound respect for my dad's service, and I know that men have it built in them to protect women and that would only have been a destraction I wasn't willing to make. The military is not for everybody.

LBR 11-09-2008 05:12 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

I heardyour kind of anti-femalecrap when females first came into the Army EOD program in the mid 1970s.
No, you didn't, and I don't appreciate your lying about me to try to give your position a foundation.

I am not "anti female". I don't feel that it's a woman's place to bleed and suffer and die in combat. I have seen the problems caused by young men and young women living in mass groups close together.


It is my experience as a M/Sgt. that most of the charges against females in the entire Army are lodged bylazy, drunk and/or incompetent troops.
Why do I feel you are putting the same spin on that as you tried to put on me? At any rate, I don't believe that was your experience, and I know it wasn't mine.


Now you tell me why all those young brave US maleRepublican hawks avoid the military and have no problem havingfemales serve in their places.
I'm not the one who thinks they know everything. Heck, even if I did know and stated it, you'd just put a spin on it to make it something it's not. Who are all these "young brave US male Republican hawks" that are avoiding the military and letting females serve for them anyway? Where do they live? Or is that just more overactive imagination at work?

Chad

Leafrivermac 11-09-2008 05:50 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Now you tell me why all those young brave US male Republican hawks avoid the military and have no problem having females serve in their places.
Hey first sgt, your statement made me curious. I'm not up on all the terms you folk use so would you tell me what a "republican hawk" is?
Just off hand, I take it to mean that republicans don't want to serve in the military. . . .which I know is not the case. Actually, it seems to me that it's the dems that want to withdraw.
Anyway, I probably don't have a clue as to what a rep hawk is, so if someone would clear me up on this???

falcon 11-09-2008 08:41 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

I have seen the problems caused by young men and young women living in mass groups close together
.


Oh, WOW!!!

The US military sends females into harms way because not enough males sign up. Whether you like it or not matters not. Yep, another one of those guys who call other folks liars whenyour perfecttake on the subjectis challenged. Way to go, LBR.





Swampdog 11-10-2008 04:13 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Good post VC!


No fag's in my fox hole either.I don't want them "Watching my BACK":Dliterally.I also would not want a woman in my fox hole either,But not for the same reason.Was asked that question in boot camp.Told the DS that I din't think I could keep my mind on mY job for being protective of the woman( way I was raised)The women have their jobs to do in service be what it may.I just would not want to be in combat with them because of the reasons above .But back to the original question. HO MO you don't.

LBR 11-10-2008 09:30 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Whether you like it or not matters not.
I never said it did--I just gave my honest opinion. More spin on your part.


Yep, another one of those guys who call other folks liars whenyour perfecttake on the subjectis challenged.
More spin. Here's what you said that's a lie.


I heardyour kind of anti-femalecrap when females first came into the Army EOD program in the mid 1970s.
Prove me wrong. Show me where I said anything that was "anti-female". Tell mehow you know how I feel and what I've said.

I didn't say the other part was a lie, just that I don't believe it. That's based on the false statements you've made on this thread, and my own experience.

Nice debate skills you have there--imply thatthose who doesn't agree with your opinion is just "lazy, drunk and/or incompetent".

SD, I agree. Maybe it's just a Southern thing? I don't believe a woman should stay barefoot and pregnant, but I am not at all comfortable with a woman in combat. It makes men--at least some of us--do things we normally wouldn't; it affects us mentally and emotionally. It's even worse whenone or the other sees their mate/lover/crush in harm's way, wounded, or dead. That's on top of the obvious problems caused by having large groups of males and females bunked in close quarters.

Chad

wahoohunter 11-10-2008 11:50 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

SD, I agree. Maybe it's just a Southern thing? I don't believe a woman should stay barefoot and pregnant, but I am not at all comfortable with a woman in combat. It makes men--at least some of us--do things we normally wouldn't; it affects us mentally and emotionally. It's even worse whenone or the other sees their mate/lover/crush in harm's way, wounded, or dead. That's on top of the obvious problems caused by having large groups of males and females bunked in close quarters.

Chad
Chad, if ya don't mind me asking, what were the wars in which you served?

NavyDeerHunter 11-10-2008 01:21 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
What a read!
I recently retired after 26 years of service and here is my take on things.This comes from the experience of serving on 4 ships, overseas and several state side shore stations so there is a mix here.
I don't give two rat's ass' if you're gay, but it does not belong in the service. Your moral choices are yours to deal with when the time comes to meet your maker and answer for your actions. We can argue all day over it being choice or not, but that is not important to this discussion.
We successfully integrated women into the services, but not without a lot of logistical problems, emotional strain and initial loss of effectiveness...until we got it pretty much figured out. Same goes (I would guess...since it was before my time) for minorities. We eventually got through those times and are now a better force for it. I have seen women and minority fighter pilots take off and land on an aircraft carrier under some extreme conditions. They have gone and dropped bombs and done their fair share in supporting the combat missions that they were involved with. They are proud warriors and I'm proud to have served with them. HOWEVER, to say that there has been no disruption is false. There has been and always will be as long as they serve. This is not just my opinion, but that of many of my shipmates...and even some of the women that I served with. We deal with it and go on.
I do not feel that the same would be the case for gays. I had gays work for me in my division and it was a distraction to everyone around and that turned it into a leadership distraction for me. These guys/gals were known to be gay, but had not officially "come out" with the military so they continued to serve. Because they knew there would be consequenses, for the most part they were low keyed and did not cause problems, but again...it was a distraction. The other guys HATED having them in the same berthing compartments with them. They did not want to have to work with them in a 1-1 situation. They did not slander them or berate them, but they were uncomfortable around them enough that it distracted them from work and caused problems...and these are problems that will not be overcome like we mostly have with the female issues. Keep in mind that these problems happened with "closet" gays where they knew they could suffer greatly if they "came out"...so they mostly behaved.
It's been mentioned before...many times, but the logistics of it are impossible.
NOW, open the door and let they gays openly serve and see what happens. One more time...from experience...in many cases, when a closet gay comes out...they become an in your face gay because they are tired of being looked down upon and feeling like they need to be quiet. Now they are out and will make a big deal of it...knowing that unless they physically touch/abuse you...there is nothing you can do. Why?, because if you raise your concerns about seemingly harmless "come ons" and the chain of command actually does something about it then the chain of command looks bad for picking on gays. That being the case, nothing gets done and you, the straight guy/gal suffers because you are now in a situation that is uncontrolled.
Sorry for the long wind, but no gays in my military.
Craig

bigbulls 11-10-2008 08:11 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Right on the money Craig.

ButchA 11-10-2008 09:33 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Wow... what a long read. I agree with NavyDeerHunter (Craig). I retired from the Coast Guard and knew a few guys who were, um, "a little light in their loafers". But they did the job and worked hard. They didn't bother you and you didn't bother them.

"K" --- was an E-4 who was completely, totally, without a doubt, a flamer. OMG... This guy wore pink shirts off duty and always had that annoying effeminate lisp, like Liberace. People avoided him like the plague because of the way he acted. Anyone who met him would instantly see he was a"pillow biter", in 0.2 seconds flat. [:'(] Word has it, he did his time, served his country, and got out. Lord only knows what became of him...

"D" --- was a fellow E-6 (Yeoman First Class) like me and was a heck of a guy. Medals, awards, ribbons, you name it... "D" was a great guy. Everyone liked him and would hang with him, and ask him for help, advice, whatever. But, very few of us who were good friends of his, secretly learned the truth. He wasa very private, closeted, gay man. But yet, he was totally straight acting and nobody nowhere would have guessed. It really made me stop and think about stuff, you know? "D" was a friend of mine even though, secretly, he was gay.

Now, let's talk about a bad experience, shall we?

"G" --- was a roommate I had way back in the day when I was living in the barracks (normally 3 men to a room, but sometimes 2 to a room). I was a young E-4 and "G" was an E-5. He seemed okay and pretty cool at first. I was taking karate lessons at night in the gym and would come back to the barracks all tired and sweaty. One night I came back, got out of my gi (karate outfit), and collapsed on my bunk in my underwear, laying on my belly. "G"decided to come over to my bunk, put his hand on my shoulder and said something like, "Oooo, you look tired, do you want a rubdown"? [&:][:'(] At first, I was so tired, I didn't pay attention and ignored him. So, he went one fatal step further and put his hand on my butt cheek and said the same thing, "Oooo do you want a rubdown?" I got up so fast, I don't really remember anything. All I remember is going Hiiii-YA!!! with a very quick, forward jab and nailing him right in the nose, sending him reeling backwards on his butt, holding his nose and yelling, while blood was coming out his nose. I got dressed so quickly, and ran down to the MAA (Master At Arms) and requested they move me from the room NOW. While I stayed down there, they called a medic to take care of "G" and started asking me all sorts of questions. Since there were no witnesses, I couldn't get brought up on assault/battery charges, and "G" couldn't get kicked out for homosexual conduct and/or inappropriate behavior. So, anyway, they moved me out that night and kept a very close eye on "G" for the rest of his career. Who knows where he is, and who cares. Good riddance. [:'(] Look, I don't care of someone is gay. Big deal, just keep it to yourself. But DON'T touch me or try to get your groove on with me, 'cause I'll knock your lights out! [:@]


bigbulls 11-10-2008 10:11 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
But Butch, They say that kind of thing doesn't happen. [:'(]


but how is Adam and Steve being together affecting you?

+1; If homosexuals are willing to put their life on the line to protect our country, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. Of course, I'm not homophobic though so its not surprise I feel this way;)

IMO, and again you don't have to point out that I've never served, but for those who are there for their country and confident in their sexuality should have nothing to worry about. Sexual harassment from a gay man would be as likely to occur as it is between a man and a woman, so however likely that is, take it for what its worth. If you're there for your country and nothing else, why would someone else's sexuality bother you? I think its a little pretentious on your part to think YOU have something to worry about.

OK, so the guy above you or below you is gay and you don't know it, does that affect anything at all?

If he is gay, you know it and you're an open minded individual who believes each is entitled to their own rights, opinions and choices, again, does that affect anything at all?

Don't feel threatened if a gay man makes a pass at you. Just treat him like an ugly woman and politely decline. There's no need to round up alynch mobor ruin his career.

I don't know why that has to be a distraction? People check out other people all the time, and not just sexually. They check out your clothes, the car you drive, the house you live in, etc. It seems to me the problem is not that someone is being checked out, but how they feel about being checked out. The checker has very little control over that.

It is all about fear.

ButchA 11-10-2008 11:49 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls

But Butch, They say that kind of thing doesn't happen. [:'(]
Tell me about it... I gave 3 examples of it. Out of the three guys, two of the guys wouldn't even think of trying something. The other did and paid the price. [:@]



RenaissanceBiker 11-11-2008 08:36 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: ButchA


ORIGINAL: bigbulls

But Butch, They say that kind of thing doesn't happen. [:'(]
Tell me about it... I gave 3 examples of it. Out of the three guys, two of the guys wouldn't even think of trying something. The other did and paid the price. [:@]
I never said that doesn't happen. ButchA hasprobably had some ugly girlstouch his butttoo. I'm betting he didn't punch any of them in the nose. When I was in, I had a nasty habit of punching people who woke me up out of a sound sleep. It took me a few years to get over that. So I might have done the same thing but for a different reason. Anyway, ButchA got his point across and "G" probably learned something. That's as far as it had to go. There was no need to punish him further orruin the guy's career.

So ButchA, do you think "K" and "D" should be kicked out of the service because of what "G" did?

ButchA 11-11-2008 08:41 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker

So ButchA, do you think "K" and "D" should be kicked out of the service because of what "G" did?
Honest? No. "K" and "D" kept it to themselves and never bothered anyone. "G" was just a creep who took things way too far for his own good.


James B 11-11-2008 08:48 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
I don't see a place for Gays in the universe let alone the Military. Thats a absolute no for me.

burniegoeasily 11-11-2008 08:57 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: boysda


ORIGINAL: LBR


the only difference is the latter group serves in secrecy.
Bull. Where do you house them?

where do you house women?



House them with the women, that way they can do the womens hair. Have you seen the ugly styles the military women have. Thay are thimply horrid.


Now for the community shower thing, im at a lost where to go with that one. I guess the song by the Village People might explain that one. "In the Navy, you can be nice and clean"

RenaissanceBiker 11-11-2008 10:31 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: ButchA


ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker

So ButchA, do you think "K" and "D" should be kicked out of the service because of what "G" did?
Honest? No. "K" and "D" kept it to themselves and never bothered anyone. "G" was just a creep who took things way too far for his own good.

That's what I have been saying. If "G" persisted after that, you could have had him charged with harrassment. The genders of the people involved doesn't really matter. What matters is that you did not want him to touch you that way. The same rules apply if he had been a female you weren't attracted to, a male touching a female that way, or a female touching a female that way. If they enforce the existing rules properly, patriotic gays can serve in the military the same as anyone else. Now is not the time to turn away people who want to help defend America.

bigbulls 11-11-2008 08:43 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Question 1. Where do you put gay men?

Question 2. Where do you put gay women?

Please answer these two simple questions.

vc1111 11-11-2008 08:46 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

would suggest that history shows us that the military is never solely about proficiency; rather "fairness," politics, or societal expectation always factor into the equation. we don't just care about fighting a war, we care about the way in which we fight the war. the key is, of course, balance.
I understand what you're saying, but I think we might be talking about different things. The machine itself is sent to kill and destroy as proficiently as possible. The politics and societal factors are more important always, but they do not in my opinion change the machine's mission...to break people, places, and things.

The politics is the why, the machine is the how.



RenaissanceBiker 11-11-2008 10:26 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls
Question 1. Where do you put gay men?
The same placewe put everyone else. The same place we put them now.


ORIGINAL: bigbulls
Question 2. Where do you put gay women?
The same placewe put everyone else. The same place we put them now.


ORIGINAL: bigbulls
Please answer these two simple questions.
I just did, but you probably don't like the simpleanswers.

bigbulls 11-11-2008 10:41 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
We don'thouse men and women in the same place now do we?
Good job at skirting the question though. Well, not really.

I will ask again and be more specific this time in hopes that you can give real answers to two very simple questions.

#1. Where do you house gay men. Do you house them with the men, with the women, or by themselves as a third sex.

#2. Where do you house the gay women? Do you house them with the women, with the men, or by themselves as a fourth sex?

ButchA 11-11-2008 11:50 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
You house them with everyone else, just like it is now. If they decide to "come out" and make a move on someone, then it's BLANKET PARTY TIME!


bigbulls 11-12-2008 12:02 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
I'm not talking about if they decide to come out under the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy and get kicked out.




I am talking about if gays were 100% openly allowed to serve in the military.

#1. Where do you house gay men. Do you house them with the men, with the women, or by themselves as a third sex.

#2. Where do you house the gay women? Do you house them with the women, with the men, or by themselves as a fourth sex?

C. Davis 11-12-2008 06:38 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls

I'm not talking about if they decide to come out under the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy and get kicked out.




I am talking about if gays were 100% openly allowed to serve in the military.

#1. Where do you house gay men. Do you house them with the men, with the women, or by themselves as a third sex.

#2. Where do you house the gay women? Do you house them with the women, with the men, or by themselves as a fourth sex?
I can see why the military would be a cool venture for them. They get to shower and house with their sexual preference. I think they have more rights than I do.

C. Davis

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 08:16 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls

I am talking about if gays were 100% openly allowed to serve in the military.

#1. Where do you house gay men. Do you house them with the men, with the women, or by themselves as a third sex.

#2. Where do you house the gay women? Do you house them with the women, with the men, or by themselves as a fourth sex?
The same place we put them now. Segregating them would be a bigger mistake than kicking them out.


ORIGINAL: C. Davis
I can see why the military would be a cool venture for them. They get to shower and house with their sexual preference. I think they have more rights than I do.

C. Davis
... getting punched in the nose. Yeah, they probably enjoy stuff like that. It's funny how you think a group whose persecution you support has more rights than you. I wasn't going to share this with you because I didn't want to challenge your masculinity, but now I think I will. A researcher at Cornell University found that men who had their masculinity challenged responded by becoming more aggressive,homophobic and willing to buy an SUV.

http://www.livescience.com/health/050802_masculinity.html

Researchers at the University of Georgia found that homophobia is associated with homosexual arousal.

http://www.oogachaga.com/downloads/homophobia_and_homosexual_arousal.pdf

They gave men a questionaire to determine the degree to which they exhibited homophobic tendencies. Then they showed these men a gay porn movie and measured the degree to which they became aroused. The men who displayed homophobic tendencies were much more aroused by gay porn. This supports my earlier contention hatred of homosexuals is a symptom of fear. This is usually a fear of the social stigma of being identified as a homosexual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

So guess what? The more you bash homosexuals, the more I wonder about you. Now go ahead, become more aggressive and homophobic. Prove the Cornell researcher right.

BigTiny 11-12-2008 08:30 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
RB, most women get sexually aroused when they are being raped. Same for a man, BTW. Doesn't mean that's what they want.

I think someone at Cornell wanted an excuse to measure something they were interested in.:D

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 09:28 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: BigTiny
RB, most women get sexually aroused when they are being raped. Same for a man, BTW. Doesn't mean that's what they want.

I think someone at Cornell wanted an excuse to measure something they were interested in.:D
The Cornell researcher didn't measure arousal. The University of Georgia researchers did. Read the paper. If it didn't mean anything, the homophobic men would have shown the same result as thenon-homophobic men. That's why they tested both groups the same.

Lanse couche couche 11-12-2008 09:41 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
So, RB, are you suggesting that some of the more strongly worded posts against gays in the military here have been written while the author was sitting at the computer wearing their wife's bra and panties whilea Liberace CD plays softly on the stereo.[:'(]

C. Davis 11-12-2008 09:52 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: C. Davis
I can see why the military would be a cool venture for them. They get to shower and house with their sexual preference. I think they have more rights than I do.

C. Davis
... getting punched in the nose. Yeah, they probably enjoy stuff like that. It's funny how you think a group whose persecution you support has more rights than you. I wasn't going to share this with you because I didn't want to challenge your masculinity, but now I think I will. A researcher at Cornell University found that men who had their masculinity challenged responded by becoming more aggressive,homophobic and willing to buy an SUV.

http://www.livescience.com/health/050802_masculinity.html

Researchers at the University of Georgia found that homophobia is associated with homosexual arousal.

http://www.oogachaga.com/downloads/homophobia_and_homosexual_arousal.pdf

They gave men a questionaire to determine the degree to which they exhibited homophobic tendencies. Then they showed these men a gay porn movie and measured the degree to which they became aroused. The men who displayed homophobic tendencies were much more aroused by gay porn. This supports my earlier contention hatred of homosexuals is a symptom of fear. This is usually a fear of the social stigma of being identified as a homosexual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

So guess what? The more you bash homosexuals, the more I wonder about you. Now go ahead, become more aggressive and homophobic. Prove the Cornell researcher right.
Actually RB,
I thought I made a pretty good point. I must have because you went haywire looking for two bit college researches that are a dime a dozen. Especially if they are tilted I'm sureto a desired outcome.

Second,
I don't think puking would count as arousel.

Third,
I affectionatly refer to my 1983 full size bronco that gets me through the swamp to my deer stand a truck..not a SUV. An SUV is for sissies and would only get me halfway there.

Fourth,
The gay fellow who made a pass at ButchA and putt his hand on Butch's "butt cheek" deserved the punch in the nose. I'm sure Butch didn't carry a purse to hit him over the head with.

C. Davis


RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 10:21 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: Lanse couche couche

So, RB, are you suggesting that some of the more strongly worded posts against gays in the military here have been written while the author was sitting at the computer wearing their wife's bra and panties whilea Liberace CD plays softly on the stereo.[:'(]
Of course not. They probably have their own panties and listen to Clay Aiken. I'm kidding. No, I'm saying that some of them may be acting homophobic to compensate for an irrational fear that they might be labeled "*****" if they don't. Some of them may be acting homophobic to cover for internal conflicting feelings about homosexuality. The fear prevents them from acting on or talking about these feelings so they probably don't behave in a way that would draw attention to themselves.


ORIGINAL: C. Davis
Actually RB,
I thought I made a pretty good point. I must have because you went haywire looking for two bit college researches that are a dime a dozen. Especially if they are tilted I'm sureto a desired outcome.
You did make a good point about showering with your sexual preference. On the surface showering with a bunch of women sounds good to a heterosexual man. But consider that not all of them will be attractive and that if you touch one ofthem or even become aroused you will get in trouble or worse. Now it doesn't sound like such a good idea and after a few timesyou would probably try to shower when none of them were there.

I didn't realize that the University of Georgia was a two-bit college. I was actually considering sending my daughter there. Thanks for the heads-up.


ORIGINAL: C. Davis
Second,
I don't think puking would count as arousel.

Third,
I affectionatly refer to my 1983 full size bronco that gets me through the swamp to my deer stand a truck..not a SUV. An SUV is for sissies and would only get me halfway there.

Fourth,
The gay fellow who made a pass at ButchA and putt his hand on Butch's "butt cheek" deserved the punch in the nose. I'm sure Butch didn't carry a purse to hit him over the head with.

C. Davis
Just as I predicted.

mudhead1s wife 11-12-2008 10:55 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
If men and women HAVE to be segregated because of sexual assualt, harrassment, adultery, ect. than homosexuals if allowed to serve openly would have to be segregated for mainly the same reasons.

There are two types of homosexuals, femine and masculine. Do you think that just because a man prefers another man or awoman another woman that rape doesn't happen to them? How are they excluded from gay on gay rape?

Have you taken into consideration that homophobia is normally none other than having a horrible experience with a homosexual, or fear of that happening to them. For me I don't know that I would consider myself to be homophobic but after been treated the way I was by a lesbian and then my brother in law I don't like to be touched by anyone man or woman, and have been slowly getting over it. Is it fair to me to be treated as a piece of meat not only by men but women also?
As for men, the number one thing that a man wants is to be respected, by his wife, his children, his friends, his boss, his co-workers. By a homosexual making inappropriate advances towards another man who is heterosexual is one of the highest forms of disrespect.
Furthermore like I have allready said, allowing homosexuals into the military openly would cause a huge distraction to the majority of servicemen. And I would gather it would be just as much of a distraction to service women.

Would they need to be housed differently? yes. What about those that are not just homosexuals but bi-sexual? Where do you put them? You cannot put gay men in with gay women for the same reason you cannot house men and women together. Do you make the majority just get over the fact that they are in a high stress situation and they feel like they not only have to watch out for the enemy but for those fighting on their side as well.

Just because these men are in the military does not mean that they have a higher honor code and the proof is in the rapes and sexual harrasment allready in the military. If you can't trust the man next to you, who can you trust?

NavyDeerHunter 11-12-2008 11:04 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
So, this gives them more rights than I get. Them being in "the same place we put them now" means that they will have the ability to OPENLY stare, check me out, hit on me or whatever and get away with it. I on the other hand, if I want to avoid that type of behavior, I have to change my routine so thatIlimit exposure to them? When I'm in a co-habitation situation with other straight guys I'm pretty comfortable becasue I know that they are minding their business and not checking me out. If I were in a co-habitation situation with gays I'd always be on alert wondering if they were eyeing me. This would be just like a womans reaction to a co-ed situation...they would alway be on guard.
No thanks.

[quote]ORIGINAL: RenaissanceBiker


ORIGINAL: bigbulls

I am talking about if gays were 100% openly allowed to serve in the military.

#1. Where do you house gay men. Do you house them with the men, with the women, or by themselves as a third sex.

#2. Where do you house the gay women? Do you house them with the women, with the men, or by themselves as a fourth sex?
The same place we put them now. Segregating them would be a bigger mistake than kicking them out.



RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 11:19 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: NavyDeerHunter
So, this gives them more rights than I get. Them being in "the same place we put them now" means that they will have the ability to OPENLY stare, check me out, hit on me or whatever and get away with it. I on the other hand, if I want to avoid that type of behavior, I have to change my routine so thatIlimit exposure to them? When I'm in a co-habitation situation with other straight guys I'm pretty comfortable becasue I know that they are minding their business and not checking me out. If I were in a co-habitation situation with gays I'd always be on alert wondering if they were eyeing me. This would be just like a womans reaction to a co-ed situation...they would alway be on guard.
No thanks.
No, an ability is not the same as a right. As I said before, people check out other people all the time. It's not always sexual. You can't stop it. They will check you out in formation. They will check you out on a PT run. They will check you out as you perform PM on your vehicle. They will check you out while you are at the firing range. The only way to avoid being checked out is to withdraw from society completely. No one has the right to not be checked out. No one has the right to not be hit on (assuming we mean a sexual advance not physical violence). You have the right to turn down a sexual advance from anybody. It is unreasonable to expect that you will never be checked out.

RenaissanceBiker 11-12-2008 11:29 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: mudhead1s wife
Do you make the majority just get over the fact that they are in a high stress situation and they feel like they not only have to watch out for the enemy but for those fighting on their side as well.

Just because these men are in the military does not mean that they have a higher honor code and the proof is in the rapes and sexual harrasment allready in the military. If you can't trust the man next to you, who can you trust?
You can only trust people so far. Someone in your unit will steal your MRE if you don't keep up with it. Someone will take your boot polish if they need it. This is nothing new to the military or to society.


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