Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
08-20-2003, 06:39 PM
#21
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 55
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
[:-]Robert, you need to read some history, off the shelf is not new in the past ten years.
Yes it would be nice to have more shooters in the RU class, but when someone can shoot for some what less money for equipment and also get more use out of their equipment, that' s life. As far as having the rules stretched next year, is it not true that in any sport someone will always find a way to do just that.[>:]
Yes it would be nice to have more shooters in the RU class, but when someone can shoot for some what less money for equipment and also get more use out of their equipment, that' s life. As far as having the rules stretched next year, is it not true that in any sport someone will always find a way to do just that.[>:]
08-20-2003, 09:32 PM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ellenville NY USA
Posts: 132
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Robert,
I think you have selective memory. There was no one at last years meeting that was in favor of splitting the RU class. As a matter of fact the idea of allowing string and face walking was a no vote also. I know you heard the same thing because I was sitting across the table from you.
If you look at the RU class this year it is most of the same hard core guys who have been shooting it for years. I switched this year to HR because that' s the gear I shoot. I shot the same gear last year in the RU class and would still be shooting in RU if that' s all there was.
I think you have selective memory. There was no one at last years meeting that was in favor of splitting the RU class. As a matter of fact the idea of allowing string and face walking was a no vote also. I know you heard the same thing because I was sitting across the table from you.
If you look at the RU class this year it is most of the same hard core guys who have been shooting it for years. I switched this year to HR because that' s the gear I shoot. I shot the same gear last year in the RU class and would still be shooting in RU if that' s all there was.
08-21-2003, 04:41 AM
#23
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stratford CT
Posts: 80
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Bill, I heard a LOT of people wanting to split out a class like the HR class. I did hear a lot of people not wanting stringwalkers or facewalkers in the class, either. My opinion is that we needed to be more inclusive than exclusive since we were already a class of shooters dwindling into obscurity.
Silent string, you' re confusing traditional with primitive. " traditional" is pre-compound type bows. Pre compound recurve bows were almost universally equipped with brush rests, feather rests, flex-rests, springy rests, Berger buttons, etc. etc. etc. Only in the last few years have rests become some kind of taboo item. I guess it' s because it reminds the new trads of their old compound equipment or something. Longbows are a different story, but that' s not what we' re talking about. I figure if a fellow wants to shoot off a shelf there' s a longbow class to shoot. Trying to turn a recurve into a longbow just doesn' t make sense.
Silent string, you' re confusing traditional with primitive. " traditional" is pre-compound type bows. Pre compound recurve bows were almost universally equipped with brush rests, feather rests, flex-rests, springy rests, Berger buttons, etc. etc. etc. Only in the last few years have rests become some kind of taboo item. I guess it' s because it reminds the new trads of their old compound equipment or something. Longbows are a different story, but that' s not what we' re talking about. I figure if a fellow wants to shoot off a shelf there' s a longbow class to shoot. Trying to turn a recurve into a longbow just doesn' t make sense.
08-21-2003, 07:37 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Robert. You are right. Everyone shooting a recurve designed by all the talentless modern bowyers to be shot off the shelf need to install rests and drill out their risers to install plungers. After all this is how it was done in the " Golden Gge" .
Thanks to your input, I now know I cannot set up and tune any of my four modern recurves to achieve perfect arrow flight with carbon arrows. I guess myself and the thousands of others shooting in this delusional manner need to change our setups to honor the " Golden Age" and realize that that is the only way. Can you tell me the actual time frame for the " Golden Age" ? I would hate to miss it and hit primitive.
Since I prefer to shoot off the shelf, I could just get rid off my six dozen carbons and recurves and get all new equipment to shoot the longbow class. We can then do away with HR and return the RU to open equipment, but exclude the string and facewalkers(don' t need to try to draw any international or olympic style shooters). Rename it the Golden Age class and watch it grow as it did from 2001 to 2002. None of this will happen because as we all know, the IBO is deliberately doing all they can to kill the class.
I like the HR class and feel it will grow as the recurve hunters realize there is now a class for them and their equipment. I am sorry your hunting setup no longer fits the style that the vast majority of todays recurve shooters choose. I have probably been too sarcastic here, but my point being this is now and not 30 years ago. A class was and is needed to draw from what is the current huge pool of recurve shooters. It is my opinion the IBO is on that track and I will continue to support them.
Steve
Thanks to your input, I now know I cannot set up and tune any of my four modern recurves to achieve perfect arrow flight with carbon arrows. I guess myself and the thousands of others shooting in this delusional manner need to change our setups to honor the " Golden Age" and realize that that is the only way. Can you tell me the actual time frame for the " Golden Age" ? I would hate to miss it and hit primitive.
Since I prefer to shoot off the shelf, I could just get rid off my six dozen carbons and recurves and get all new equipment to shoot the longbow class. We can then do away with HR and return the RU to open equipment, but exclude the string and facewalkers(don' t need to try to draw any international or olympic style shooters). Rename it the Golden Age class and watch it grow as it did from 2001 to 2002. None of this will happen because as we all know, the IBO is deliberately doing all they can to kill the class.
I like the HR class and feel it will grow as the recurve hunters realize there is now a class for them and their equipment. I am sorry your hunting setup no longer fits the style that the vast majority of todays recurve shooters choose. I have probably been too sarcastic here, but my point being this is now and not 30 years ago. A class was and is needed to draw from what is the current huge pool of recurve shooters. It is my opinion the IBO is on that track and I will continue to support them.
Steve
08-21-2003, 08:05 AM
#25
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stratford CT
Posts: 80
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Lots of talented bowyers out there, Steve. They have to make what' s in fashion in order to make a living, though. You ever wonder why almost all the guys who think shooting off the shelf is the REAL way to shoot are relatively new to the sport? Probably not.
I hope you' re right that the recurve class will grow. Heaven knows the neo-trads that have converted from compounds in the recent years are the predominant group. Several master bowyers I' ve spoken with seem to think the way I do. Eventually when the recurve shooters get tired of struggling to achieve a high level of accuracy, they' ll look back in history and realize there isn' t a damned thing wrong with an elevated rest if it makes your shooting more consistent.
Actually, you don' t even have to have a plunger or stabilizer in order to get the benefits of a simple stick-on rest. Of course, that' s not " traditional" and it' s not a " hunting" setup, according to the neo-trads and so even a 2.50 cent stick-on rest disqualifies a guy from participating in the hunter class. That' s silly. But it' s the mindset of the neo-traditional archers, in general today.
I just can' t understand why what worked great 40-50 years ago is somehow not " traditional" today. Whatever. I may end up shooting the HR class myself next year. There' s more than one way to skin a cat.
Actually, I don' t think the IBO is trying to kill the class. I just think they made a bad decision. How many HR shooters did you have this year? I' m not recommending anyone quit supporting the IBO. I' m simply stating that I think the rule changes were a very big mistake that is going to end up destroying the Recurve classes. And the fiasco at the Worlds this year isn' t going to help, either.
And you know, one of the things that has always puzzled me about the shoot-off-the-shelf Neo-Trad shooters is that they' ll throw a petty temper trantrum and whine about how they can' t possibly compete against people who have so much as a stick-on rest because it' s an unfair advantage but eschew something so simple that, according to their own sentiments, provides a remarkable accuracy advantage. But they' ll still talk about how important it is to make a perfect shot for the sake of hunting ethics. What' s the deal there? Is accuracy a good thing when hunting or a bad thing? Are simple stick-on rests so high-tech and accuracy enhancing that they shouldn' t be used in hunting? I' m just dying to figure out the logic (or lack thereof) in the rationalization over all this. I guess it' s better to be a trad purist shooting off the shelf than to cave in to antique technology like feather rests or flex rests in order to achieve superior arrow flight. (and if you don' t think they do, then why the hubub about disallowing them?)
I hope you' re right that the recurve class will grow. Heaven knows the neo-trads that have converted from compounds in the recent years are the predominant group. Several master bowyers I' ve spoken with seem to think the way I do. Eventually when the recurve shooters get tired of struggling to achieve a high level of accuracy, they' ll look back in history and realize there isn' t a damned thing wrong with an elevated rest if it makes your shooting more consistent.
Actually, you don' t even have to have a plunger or stabilizer in order to get the benefits of a simple stick-on rest. Of course, that' s not " traditional" and it' s not a " hunting" setup, according to the neo-trads and so even a 2.50 cent stick-on rest disqualifies a guy from participating in the hunter class. That' s silly. But it' s the mindset of the neo-traditional archers, in general today.
I just can' t understand why what worked great 40-50 years ago is somehow not " traditional" today. Whatever. I may end up shooting the HR class myself next year. There' s more than one way to skin a cat.
Actually, I don' t think the IBO is trying to kill the class. I just think they made a bad decision. How many HR shooters did you have this year? I' m not recommending anyone quit supporting the IBO. I' m simply stating that I think the rule changes were a very big mistake that is going to end up destroying the Recurve classes. And the fiasco at the Worlds this year isn' t going to help, either.
And you know, one of the things that has always puzzled me about the shoot-off-the-shelf Neo-Trad shooters is that they' ll throw a petty temper trantrum and whine about how they can' t possibly compete against people who have so much as a stick-on rest because it' s an unfair advantage but eschew something so simple that, according to their own sentiments, provides a remarkable accuracy advantage. But they' ll still talk about how important it is to make a perfect shot for the sake of hunting ethics. What' s the deal there? Is accuracy a good thing when hunting or a bad thing? Are simple stick-on rests so high-tech and accuracy enhancing that they shouldn' t be used in hunting? I' m just dying to figure out the logic (or lack thereof) in the rationalization over all this. I guess it' s better to be a trad purist shooting off the shelf than to cave in to antique technology like feather rests or flex rests in order to achieve superior arrow flight. (and if you don' t think they do, then why the hubub about disallowing them?)
08-21-2003, 09:14 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Robert.
Excuse my sarcasm from my last post - we are probably pretty close in opinions on the need for accuracy. I too get a chuckle from many of the " ethical" posts. Especilly the " pure instinctive" hunched over, short drawing ones that can' t hit an 8 ring but magically kill anything with hair. You know " my comfort range is 17yds (or whateverer) so I will not take a further shot" . If pure instinctive, how do you WHAT 17 yds is in the woods??? Same crew claim anything over 20 yds is unethical, but then talk of shooting moving deer or from a prone position - great for arrow flight and accuracy.
But there are many who shoot from the shelve who can achieve great arrow flight and accuracy. I just rechecked my setup from the Worlds and they bareshaft group as good as my form allows. I shoot pretty good groups up to 35 yds with the occasional flyer from form breakdown. I admit I have not played with a rest much, but plan to do so after the hunting season. One of the main reasons would be to shoot vanes and eliminate the concern for wet feathers. I would strongly support the inclusion in HR for their use if there was a way to do so and not open the door for target only setups that would never see the woods. I know we are talking definitions here and whatever changes might be made cannot satisfy eveyone. The rules must be clear and finite as long as there are those who only care for the win and will push to find a loophole for an advantage.
We need to work together to include as many people as possible in suitable classes and to help all ( even the NEO' S ) to improve shooting accuracy. Take care. Steve
Excuse my sarcasm from my last post - we are probably pretty close in opinions on the need for accuracy. I too get a chuckle from many of the " ethical" posts. Especilly the " pure instinctive" hunched over, short drawing ones that can' t hit an 8 ring but magically kill anything with hair. You know " my comfort range is 17yds (or whateverer) so I will not take a further shot" . If pure instinctive, how do you WHAT 17 yds is in the woods??? Same crew claim anything over 20 yds is unethical, but then talk of shooting moving deer or from a prone position - great for arrow flight and accuracy.
But there are many who shoot from the shelve who can achieve great arrow flight and accuracy. I just rechecked my setup from the Worlds and they bareshaft group as good as my form allows. I shoot pretty good groups up to 35 yds with the occasional flyer from form breakdown. I admit I have not played with a rest much, but plan to do so after the hunting season. One of the main reasons would be to shoot vanes and eliminate the concern for wet feathers. I would strongly support the inclusion in HR for their use if there was a way to do so and not open the door for target only setups that would never see the woods. I know we are talking definitions here and whatever changes might be made cannot satisfy eveyone. The rules must be clear and finite as long as there are those who only care for the win and will push to find a loophole for an advantage.
We need to work together to include as many people as possible in suitable classes and to help all ( even the NEO' S ) to improve shooting accuracy. Take care. Steve
08-21-2003, 09:27 AM
#27
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stratford CT
Posts: 80
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Steve, we might be in the same camp, after all. For my hunting setup, I use a 4" stabilizer just to minimize noise and give the bow a balance I like. I use a springy rest because I like the arrow flight. I use hunter carbon arrows... again, because I like ' em, they' re relatively inexpensive, tough as nails and fly great. I took to shooting 3D with FITA style bows this year because that' s pretty much what you have to do NOW with the RU class set up as it is. I' ve got about half a dozen bows that make damned good hunters but my favorite right now is the 55# Hoyt Desperado. Looks like a hunting bow; shoots like a hunting bow. Hell, it IS a hunting bow but it' s too high tech for a hunter class since I didn' t stick sealskin on the shelf and shoot it that way. I don' t blame the HR guys from wanting to get away from the FITA crowd but I don' t think it was necessary to try to emulate the MTRD class, in order to do it. I HATE shooting recurves off the shelf. First one I ever bought with paper route money in 1975 had to have a rest in order to be shot because that' s the way a lot of them were made back then (bear 76' er). I' ve been a rest shooter ever since and it just pi$$es me off to no end when the shelf-shooters act like it' s some kind of compound emulation thing to put so much as a stinking stick-on rest on a hunting bow. They were around and used a long time before compounds were. And what' s with the 1/8" of leather thing? Geesh, why not allow something like a feather rest for crying out loud? Or as much leater as you need to get the damned bow tuned the way you want. I think it' s nuts and hope it' s just a passing fad. I think discouraging people from experimenting with arrow rests is NOT good for the trad community overall. If you don' t like ' em; don' t shoot ' em, but I think a lot of people would benefit from them in the field if they didn' t feel like they were violating some kind of sacred coveneant if they used one.
08-21-2003, 05:51 PM
#28
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 55
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Robert, as said you do need to read more on the histroy of archery I was not and will not refer to " primitive" archer. Lets face it you are someone that has a answer for ever thing, but still you can not see that what you are saying and doing has a negitve action! IBO DID IT LIVE WITH IT.Oh, on the subject of not having any one or enoght RU shooters for YOU to shoot aginst, as before how come I never see you at any NFAA or NAA or FITA shoots.
Lets also ask if you need that ego trip, lets invite you to see and shoot at some real traditional shoots, MUZZY or Stokbridge next year. In fact I will be even willing to foot you entrance fees.
Enogh is enough, IBO made the change and that is that. If you don" t like it don' t shoot! AS BEFORE SAID I have shoot with you and all you did was complain and was negitive on ever thing! ENOUGH !
08-21-2003, 07:40 PM
#29
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
Robert,
As one of the " neo-trad" shooters I have to agree with most, if not all of what you say. I have no problem with rests or plungers, because accuracy IS the critical element in hunting as well as foam shooting, and if that is what you need to use to get the best performance from your bow, have at it. There is certainly nothing " non-traditional" about that. Where I have a problem is when I' m shooting against guys with tiny, lightweight carbon arrows and 35# draw bows. In North Carolina, that gear would be illegal to hunt squirrels with, much less big game. Is there no way to put restrictions on the two recurve classes that realistically limits the HR class to hunting gear and " anything goes" in the RU class?
I understand that many of the top shooters DO use gear appropriate to hunting, but I heard many of the other shooters in HR talking about what they would be bringing next year, and they were all going toward " light, fast, and flat" . Accuracy is one thing, but there must be a line somewhere.
My recommendations: 45# minimum draw weight (I believe that' s in line with most of the states that have a minimum weight rule), 7 grains per pound minimum arrow weight, 100 grain minimum point weight, and 4" minimum fletching length. I think that would be pretty close to " minimum" legal and ethical hunting gear.
As for me, I' ll continue to hold forth with my 53# bow, 550 grain cedar arrows, 125 gr. field points, turkey fletching I cut myself, and my fur-covered shelf. I' ve been shooting that way, and killing my share of deer, for 30+ years and I' m not going to change now for the sake of placing at a target event. I had a great time last weekend just being in the presence of so many like-minded folks, and I will probably go back again next year.
As one of the " neo-trad" shooters I have to agree with most, if not all of what you say. I have no problem with rests or plungers, because accuracy IS the critical element in hunting as well as foam shooting, and if that is what you need to use to get the best performance from your bow, have at it. There is certainly nothing " non-traditional" about that. Where I have a problem is when I' m shooting against guys with tiny, lightweight carbon arrows and 35# draw bows. In North Carolina, that gear would be illegal to hunt squirrels with, much less big game. Is there no way to put restrictions on the two recurve classes that realistically limits the HR class to hunting gear and " anything goes" in the RU class?
I understand that many of the top shooters DO use gear appropriate to hunting, but I heard many of the other shooters in HR talking about what they would be bringing next year, and they were all going toward " light, fast, and flat" . Accuracy is one thing, but there must be a line somewhere.
My recommendations: 45# minimum draw weight (I believe that' s in line with most of the states that have a minimum weight rule), 7 grains per pound minimum arrow weight, 100 grain minimum point weight, and 4" minimum fletching length. I think that would be pretty close to " minimum" legal and ethical hunting gear.
As for me, I' ll continue to hold forth with my 53# bow, 550 grain cedar arrows, 125 gr. field points, turkey fletching I cut myself, and my fur-covered shelf. I' ve been shooting that way, and killing my share of deer, for 30+ years and I' m not going to change now for the sake of placing at a target event. I had a great time last weekend just being in the presence of so many like-minded folks, and I will probably go back again next year.
08-21-2003, 09:36 PM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: St. Maries Idaho USA
Posts: 4
RE: Has IBO finally destroyed the RU class?
No matter what you want to call it, IBO shoots or most any other foam target shoots are target shoots, not hunting so why put hunting restrictions on us? There are many older types and handicapped types that cannot draw and shoot 45lbs, what about the ladies? Gonna keep them out too?
You seem to forget, this is modern target shooting, not hunting. If you want to shoot your heavy hunting bow with heavy arrows dont bitch if some one beats you with a 40 lb target bow with his skinny carbon arrows, he is target shooting, not hunting.
I' m a target shooter using machined riser FITA type recurves with carbon arrows shooting all the local 3-D shoots, I also elk hunt with the same equipment with heavier limbs, still a target bow or is it now a hunting bow?
What the IBO did for us recurve shooters is a shame but it is history and needs to be put behind us. I' m among many I know who will be modifing our " target" bows and will be shooting in HR class as that is where the people are so get used to seeing us and our " target" equipment in your class. Guess some of you will be asking IBO for a third recurve class to suit your " style" of shooting.
You seem to forget, this is modern target shooting, not hunting. If you want to shoot your heavy hunting bow with heavy arrows dont bitch if some one beats you with a 40 lb target bow with his skinny carbon arrows, he is target shooting, not hunting.
I' m a target shooter using machined riser FITA type recurves with carbon arrows shooting all the local 3-D shoots, I also elk hunt with the same equipment with heavier limbs, still a target bow or is it now a hunting bow?
What the IBO did for us recurve shooters is a shame but it is history and needs to be put behind us. I' m among many I know who will be modifing our " target" bows and will be shooting in HR class as that is where the people are so get used to seeing us and our " target" equipment in your class. Guess some of you will be asking IBO for a third recurve class to suit your " style" of shooting.