Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
12-13-2002, 07:12 AM
#42
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Murray Kt USA
Posts: 66
RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
Bill H.,
For that matter , what does hump on shelf have to do with anything ?
Nothing in the rule's about them.
You can not go by what some local yokal says the rules are ! This is one thing that I here all the time . I do not know where people come up with the rules that they state all the time . They are not in THE IBO RULE'S. If you can not use a tab then Kieth Bain needs to turn his many world championship belt buckle's back in !
Bill
For that matter , what does hump on shelf have to do with anything ?
Nothing in the rule's about them.
You can not go by what some local yokal says the rules are ! This is one thing that I here all the time . I do not know where people come up with the rules that they state all the time . They are not in THE IBO RULE'S. If you can not use a tab then Kieth Bain needs to turn his many world championship belt buckle's back in !
Bill
12-13-2002, 10:14 AM
#43
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Paducah KY USA
Posts: 45
RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
Hi Bill,
Sorry about that. Senior moment on my part. I failed to make my meaning clear. Since I use a tab to shoot 3-under or Apache style, I used the word tab, to incorrectly mean 3-under. You're absolutely right of course; most tabs can be used to shoot split fingers. Split fingers being the only accepted manner under the present rules. Apache style, or Asiatic style not being "English enough". I did not mean to confuse anyone. However, I still feel I am right on the second part.
1. Under "TRADITIONAL LONGBOW (MTRD)" it says under rule eight for this class. " 8. Arrow should be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather or similar material 1/8 inch thick or less shall be allowed on the arrow shelf."
This effectively disallows placing a raised spot on the shelf using 1/8" leather shoe lacing and then covering it, as well as sealskin, which will stick up 3/16-1/4" or more. How does this give a huge advantage? Even though I have not shot a bow since 1960 till Oct of 2001, my old Bear Cub and Kodiak Special had Bear's hair rest. The shelves on these bows were illegal according to the present traditional rules.
If it is known that rules are being mis-applied, or misunderstood, it would seem reasonable that enough information be given to Local Range Officers so that they could make proper rulings on rule violations, if they follow IBO rules.
gg
Sorry about that. Senior moment on my part. I failed to make my meaning clear. Since I use a tab to shoot 3-under or Apache style, I used the word tab, to incorrectly mean 3-under. You're absolutely right of course; most tabs can be used to shoot split fingers. Split fingers being the only accepted manner under the present rules. Apache style, or Asiatic style not being "English enough". I did not mean to confuse anyone. However, I still feel I am right on the second part.
1. Under "TRADITIONAL LONGBOW (MTRD)" it says under rule eight for this class. " 8. Arrow should be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather or similar material 1/8 inch thick or less shall be allowed on the arrow shelf."
This effectively disallows placing a raised spot on the shelf using 1/8" leather shoe lacing and then covering it, as well as sealskin, which will stick up 3/16-1/4" or more. How does this give a huge advantage? Even though I have not shot a bow since 1960 till Oct of 2001, my old Bear Cub and Kodiak Special had Bear's hair rest. The shelves on these bows were illegal according to the present traditional rules.
If it is known that rules are being mis-applied, or misunderstood, it would seem reasonable that enough information be given to Local Range Officers so that they could make proper rulings on rule violations, if they follow IBO rules.
gg
12-13-2002, 08:59 PM
#45
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Shawsville Virginia USA
Posts: 29
RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
It may be that it is not so much a question of the equipment that brings opposition to change as it may be in the method it is shot. Personally I do not feel there is enough difference between a recurve and a longbow to make any real difference especially when the shots are kept at twenty five yard and under. The same I think is basically correct about wood versus aluminum or carbon or what the point weight is, perhaps 125 grain point weight was choosen because it is what is required for other divisions as well. There is though I think a huge difference between a three finger under and a split finger shooter. For pure accuracy I believe that three under is superior and easier for many because with a little playing with your set up you can aim point on at most targets while split finger requires a greater gap or what we term instinctive shooting. for most this will never be as easy to use or achieve quite the accuracy as any direct aiming method. It seems that the longbow division is set up to be as dificult as reasonably possible with the current rules and that this is exactly what is wanted. If this is correct then changing the rules to fit three under to everything will effectivly eliminate another group, the split finger shooters. They now have a division with the new recurve division for three under as well as one for wood arrows and split fingers , seems like the IBO has progressed in a very logical manner in this matter. I do agree on the shooter of the year, we should be included as well as a max distance of 25 yds. The top shooters will still do well with the addition of the eleven point ring and the closer distances would encourage the newer shooter. Ken, rest assured those attitudes you received in regards to compound shooters are not in the majority, it just goes to show that real ignorance knows no bounds in creed, color, or archery equipment selections, I have received simalar comments from compound shooters that do not believe you could hit or kill anything with a stickbow and the only comment I could make was that it is truely a wonder we managed to be successful for a few , say twenty thousand years or so before the compound came along and continue to enjoy myself. This ignorance of another way may have manifested it's self enough to make a number of traditionalist prefer to shoot only with other traditionalist.My only comment to traditionalist who will not compete because of this, get out and educate people insted of hiding your head in the sand, we are all archers first and a particular style comes a distant second, and trust me this is from as hard core a traditionalis as you will find.
12-13-2002, 09:09 PM
#46
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Shawsville Virginia USA
Posts: 29
RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
K.N. (Tom) I believe I shot with you at the Worlds ( I was using the dowells)after breaking all my cedears the day before in a fall. May have been another person doing the same thing though.
Darryl Longbow aka Darryl Payne
Wall Mart dowells are better
Kustom King shafts are MUCH better
Darryl Longbow aka Darryl Payne
Wall Mart dowells are better
Kustom King shafts are MUCH better
12-13-2002, 09:48 PM
#48
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Paducah KY USA
Posts: 45
RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
Hi Fastfletch,
We agree on the importance of Longbow Hunter education as a concept and how it is applied. Before decision making in the form of rules occur, dialogue between individual Longbow Hunters, groups of such Archers and committee members must occur. I am trying to start such a dialogue and motivate input. Input, which I feel, has been lacking.
The rules should, as close as possible, represent 100% of Longbow Hunters, not just less than 30% of them and certainly not just the opinion of 18 people, who may or may not be informed. At this point in time we have no assurance that their decision is an informed one.
I haven't had any contact from a board member. Unless, someone has posted here that belongs to the Board. Bill Leslie asked for Board input several days ago and I haven't seen a response to his thread either.
I personally, have never had a problem with waiting. Without exception, when another Longbow shooter and I come up on a group of compound shooters, they have invited us to "shoot through". I feel that is more of an individual problem and not an IBO problem. That being said, if IBO had a guideline, protocol, or some statement about shooting through, that might help.
Your last two paragraph indicate you have an understanding of the problem and steps that may need to be taken to reach a decision that represents the Majority of Longbow Hunters, not just 25-30% of them.
Hi K_N,
You were unaware of the discrimination against MTRD in regards to the "Shooter of the Year" and children. Yet these are the same people you are willing to accept and "Rubber Stamp"what ever they say without a question and without any input from you. Why?
The fact that MTRD rules may be similar to rules by other organizations, does not make them right, and does not address the question of being fair, or being discriminatory. Other groups are capable of discrimination also. Your not affected, so you dont care.
If you had read carefully the section dealing with percent in a prior post, you would have realized that some 70% or more of Longbow/Traditional archers do not attend IBO events. With that being true, naturally you rarely see someone shooting Aluminum. I can guarantee you, if you saw me and the only other longbow hunter in this area that shoots in such meets, you would have seen aluminum arrows.
As I said earlier today, my mistake on the tab. In my mind tab equals Apache, since that is how I shoot. Tabs used in a split finger manner are legal. Tabs used in an Apache, (3 under) manner are not legal.
K_N, have you measured a leather shoelace? I have! Using a Lyman Dial Caliper, a leather shoelace measures .118" (its thickness isn't constant) without any barge cement under it. You're allowed .125", which means your barge cement, and whatever else you try to use has to be .007" thin or you're over. Don't you think that this is a little silly? The rules do not cover compressing your rest. You still have not answered my question. How do any of the proposed rules exclude anyone, or give an unfair advantage. Notice the word unfair.
Take care, gg
Again, I would urge you to respond to how any of the proposed rules would be unfair or exclude.
We agree on the importance of Longbow Hunter education as a concept and how it is applied. Before decision making in the form of rules occur, dialogue between individual Longbow Hunters, groups of such Archers and committee members must occur. I am trying to start such a dialogue and motivate input. Input, which I feel, has been lacking.
The rules should, as close as possible, represent 100% of Longbow Hunters, not just less than 30% of them and certainly not just the opinion of 18 people, who may or may not be informed. At this point in time we have no assurance that their decision is an informed one.
I haven't had any contact from a board member. Unless, someone has posted here that belongs to the Board. Bill Leslie asked for Board input several days ago and I haven't seen a response to his thread either.
I personally, have never had a problem with waiting. Without exception, when another Longbow shooter and I come up on a group of compound shooters, they have invited us to "shoot through". I feel that is more of an individual problem and not an IBO problem. That being said, if IBO had a guideline, protocol, or some statement about shooting through, that might help.
Your last two paragraph indicate you have an understanding of the problem and steps that may need to be taken to reach a decision that represents the Majority of Longbow Hunters, not just 25-30% of them.
Hi K_N,
You were unaware of the discrimination against MTRD in regards to the "Shooter of the Year" and children. Yet these are the same people you are willing to accept and "Rubber Stamp"what ever they say without a question and without any input from you. Why?
The fact that MTRD rules may be similar to rules by other organizations, does not make them right, and does not address the question of being fair, or being discriminatory. Other groups are capable of discrimination also. Your not affected, so you dont care.
If you had read carefully the section dealing with percent in a prior post, you would have realized that some 70% or more of Longbow/Traditional archers do not attend IBO events. With that being true, naturally you rarely see someone shooting Aluminum. I can guarantee you, if you saw me and the only other longbow hunter in this area that shoots in such meets, you would have seen aluminum arrows.
As I said earlier today, my mistake on the tab. In my mind tab equals Apache, since that is how I shoot. Tabs used in a split finger manner are legal. Tabs used in an Apache, (3 under) manner are not legal.
K_N, have you measured a leather shoelace? I have! Using a Lyman Dial Caliper, a leather shoelace measures .118" (its thickness isn't constant) without any barge cement under it. You're allowed .125", which means your barge cement, and whatever else you try to use has to be .007" thin or you're over. Don't you think that this is a little silly? The rules do not cover compressing your rest. You still have not answered my question. How do any of the proposed rules exclude anyone, or give an unfair advantage. Notice the word unfair.
Take care, gg
Again, I would urge you to respond to how any of the proposed rules would be unfair or exclude.
12-13-2002, 11:10 PM
#49
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Paducah KY USA
Posts: 45
RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
Hi Bill Curlis,
So he didn't complain. Do you know that he would have chosen RU over MTRD, if he had a choice? Or was he just being resigned to his fate and didn't feel it would be worthwhile to complain? Sometimes people take a beating and don't say a word, it doesnt mean they are enjoying it.
Hi Darryl Longbow,
As I read your post, it becomes apparent that you just can't stand the Apache/3 under draw and feel that anyone that uses it should be in a Recurve Class. What is wrong with another Longbow Class other than "MRTD" such as the "LBH"(Longbow Hunter) Class I suggested?
It seems you could approve of a 25yd max and see how it would encourage new folks. That a step in the right direction.
Now consider this statement you made. "We are all archers first and a particular style comes a distant second". Your prior words don't support this statement. If I were not a stubborn person, I would sell/trade all my longbows for a Recurve. At least they wouldn't discriminate against my bow, arrows, or style.
To the Readers,
Over 500 of you have read this thread so far. The silence is almost deafening. Hope your discussing the different points of view with other Archers and giving some thought to a Longbow Hunter Class, that would accept all Longbow archers.
gg
So he didn't complain. Do you know that he would have chosen RU over MTRD, if he had a choice? Or was he just being resigned to his fate and didn't feel it would be worthwhile to complain? Sometimes people take a beating and don't say a word, it doesnt mean they are enjoying it.
Hi Darryl Longbow,
As I read your post, it becomes apparent that you just can't stand the Apache/3 under draw and feel that anyone that uses it should be in a Recurve Class. What is wrong with another Longbow Class other than "MRTD" such as the "LBH"(Longbow Hunter) Class I suggested?
It seems you could approve of a 25yd max and see how it would encourage new folks. That a step in the right direction.
Now consider this statement you made. "We are all archers first and a particular style comes a distant second". Your prior words don't support this statement. If I were not a stubborn person, I would sell/trade all my longbows for a Recurve. At least they wouldn't discriminate against my bow, arrows, or style.
To the Readers,
Over 500 of you have read this thread so far. The silence is almost deafening. Hope your discussing the different points of view with other Archers and giving some thought to a Longbow Hunter Class, that would accept all Longbow archers.
gg