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Did Our Founding Fathers....

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Old 05-08-2015, 02:00 PM
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Nontypical Buck
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Default Did Our Founding Fathers....

Simple, yet not quite so, but here it is:

Did our Founding Fathers intend for there to be a wall of separation between the American government and God? Then, why do you think so?

I ask this question here because I see a lot of opposing ideas elsewhere on the internet.

I do ask that if you choose to respond one way or the other, be polite to those who might think differently when making your case. (NO FLAMING!)
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Old 05-08-2015, 02:36 PM
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What they intended was for there to be no State church. They saw the results of a State religion in GB and wanted no part of it here. They were not opposed to religion, they however did not want religion to be part of government knowing that not every person had the same religious beliefs, hence freedom of religon. The wall of seperation was the words of the SCOTUS, not the constitution. The problem is just exactly what is a wall of seperation, what exactly does that mean. It means different things to different people, and therein lies the rub.

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Old 05-08-2015, 08:36 PM
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The wall of separation was made up by Justice Hugo Black in 1950 (I believe that was the year). Hugo Black was a KKK member and had a deep dislike for the Catholic Church. The case he was ruling in and made the majority opinion was in NJ the State government authorized to subsidize bus transportation for the school kids. They didn't distinguish between public and private schools. Much like when I was young, the public funded school bus picked up all the kids and made 2 stops. One for the catholic school and one for the public school. A half mile separated the 2 schools.

Anyway, Hugo used the phrase from Thomas Jefferson's letter to the baptist church. His letter was a curtesy letter explaining why he didn't declare several days of prayer or something. This was wrongly lifted and applied because Thomas Jefferson had nothing to do with the Bill of Rights. (Amendments 1-10). Jefferson wasn't in the US when they were drafted. He was in France. He had no input. So to rely on his interpretation of this fake wall is wrong. He was just another man in the street and not part of the original intent and debate.

That's pretty close. I had to go back and reread this section after many years. I briefly scanned through it about a week ago. If you would like to learn more about how bad our SC has been since its beginning, I reccomend you pick up the book called "Men in Black". They have a spotty record throught history of getting things wrong, mental illness and other things. That's not to say they haven't made the correct things but not always.

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Old 05-09-2015, 05:35 AM
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http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...-and-discourse

Here is a good write up of the phrase and background. I skimmed through it and don't believe it dives deeper into the background of Hugo Black. You may need to research him more on your own. The important thing to remember, just because someone puts on a black robe, doesn't mean they check their beliefs at the door nor that they can't make mistakes. Some of the current women on the SC are glaring examples of corruption.
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Old 05-09-2015, 11:20 AM
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The problem with Supreme Court Justices (which could be a topic for another thread) is that they forget they are there to INTERPRET CURRENT LAW based upon the Constitution, not make their own.
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:24 PM
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Something the founders were concerned about.
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Old 05-09-2015, 04:58 PM
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Bingo, which is why if you listen to any sound bites regarding gay marriage the questions were socially based which is clearly the job of the legislature. They avoided asking questions regarding their boundries drawn by the constitution.
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:49 PM
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My cynical take money rules and we r screwed.
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Old 05-09-2015, 11:15 PM
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Short answer to the OP's question is no. The FF did intend for the government not to be in charge of religion. Lots of good information above. I didn't know all of that background on Hugo Black. Very interesting indeed.
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Old 05-10-2015, 04:38 AM
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I asked on here because on other sites there are those who not only claim:

1. That our founding fathers wanted a wall of separation between Church and state and then argue that meant a wall of separation of God and state.

2. They also claim that the founding fathers were not religious.

The First Amendment was intended to allow people to freely worship without a state run religion that we had fled from in England.

As far as our founding fathers religious stance:

1. George Washington, in his Proclamation of October 17, 1789 stated “It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.” (SOURCE: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/GW/gw004.html)

2. John Hancock, a signer of the Constitution, the President of the 2nd Continental Congress, and the first and third governor of Massachusetts, stated in his proclamation of April 15th, 1775 stated “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect what whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness…” (SOURCE: http://www.josephsmithacademy.org)

3. Samuel Adams, another founding father, leader in the Revolution, and the fourth governor of Massachusetts stated in a proclamation while governor “I do hereby appoint Thursday the Second Day of April next, to be observed as a Day of Public Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer throughout this Commonwealth: Calling upon the Ministers of the Gospel, of every Denomination, with their respective Congregations, to assemble on that Day, and devoutly implore the Divine forgiveness of our Sins…” (SOURCE: http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/t...e-iv-1778-1802)

Although Abraham Lincoln was not a founding father, in his proclamation of April 24th, 1863 stated “It is the duty of all Nations as well to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history that those nations are blessed whose God is The Lord. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand, which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined in the deceitfulness of our hearts that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace-to-proud to pray to the God that made us…” (SOURCE: http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/...eches/fast.htm)

Last edited by AF Hunter; 05-10-2015 at 04:41 AM. Reason: addition
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