Give credit where it's due
 

Somewhere on a thread in here awhile back I predicted they would find areas in 2G under 12 DPSM and maybe less.There's people that couldn't believe numbers could be so low.Now with the results of the infa-red count it looks like I was right.Now,I'm not trying to say I fully understand the science and politics behind this deer management because I don't.My point is hunters have been telling the PGC and some of you guys that the deer numbers were getting very low in certain areas yet some of you couldn't believe that and called us wrong and whiners.My point here and the results of the count do give credibility to some of our findings in areas we have hunted for years and areas we know very well.Some posters told us we don't know how to hunt or we need to go farther back.Well beenthere and done that.There's no better results then those from the field on the ground.The deer sign tells the story.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

That prediction can be found true in any part of the state. There will always, always be areas with less than 12 DPSM. Heck, I bet I can find areas in PA with less than 2 DPSM. Not much of a prediction.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

so in those areas w/ 12dpsm or even 2dpsm, we should keep doe tags and even bonus tags there.. like the DCNR said they want the herd cut down 50%.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

So then T you are stillsaying the hunters in 2G don't know what they're talking about.
Look at the results from the counts and you'll see that the average DPSM in 2G is lower than the goal of 15.
Just what the hunters have been telling them.
In the areas I hunt which covers 1/3 of 2G the DPSM is below 12.The counts confirm that.
Are you only willing to believethe counts when they are higher?
I know you can do better then your previous post in discussion.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Never said that. I just pointed out prediction isn't much of a prediction.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

It was on the money T.But that's not what I want to discuss on this thread.Let's discuss the reports hunters have been giving in 2G and how the reports came to show what they were saying was actually true.
They weren't just whiners or complainers but simply telling the truth from experience in the field at ground zero.I feel the PGC did start listening to them but the DCNR is a different story.Now that they admitted to these low deer numbers they are changing the goals and want lower DPSM numbers because the forests aresupposingly not regenerating. regenerating.Open up the forest,they'll see some new growth.The DCNR is losing credibilty.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

As I've said before, I'm all for reasonable AR and HR but I'm really starting to worry about DCNR's motivations. Just like its bad for all that a few noisy hunters to still want a deer behind every tree, It's just as bad that the DCNR seems to be bent on eradicating the herd in some areas.

I'm really disturbed by this idea (if its true) of feeders being out during the aerial survey. Most all conventional wisdom says that supplemental winter feeding is produces dubious results. With that in mind, what possible reason could there be for the DCNR to put out feeders if not to "help" the survey results?

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

BTBowhunter- we might be on different sides on the PA deer issue but i see we have a lot of the same views.. like i do think that the PGC do want whats best for hunters, i think they get misled sometimes and can do only so much..but we will see this week what they do w/ the doe tags to see if they are going to listen to the hunters.. but w/ the DCNR there is no way they are looking out for the hunters. everything they say and do is just off the wall crazyness..
i just dont get how people can call themselves a hunter and think that the DCNR is going to help hunting..

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

so do you think that in these areas that the herd should still be cut down???

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

I can see why they would have to bait in most areas of state forest BT.The numbers are so low in most areas this could be the only way to get an actual count.
I really believe the wrong people are controlling the DCNR and with Rendell it's not going to get any better.I also believe Alt was working more for them then the PGC.The PGC is in a pickle and most of their problems are coming from the DCNR.
They want the PGC to run deer management like some southern states with longer rifle seasons and more liberal limits.Problem is those states have an 1/8 of the hunter numbers we have.
The forests were set aside for more then timber profits.Recreation is also a reason the state forests were set aside and hunting falls into that catagory.
The DCNR needs to stay out of deer management.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

By Heidi E. Ruckno, Staff Writer
04/08/2005
The Citizens Voice
http://www.citizensvoice.com/site/ne...d=455154&rfi=6

Radio talk show host Jim Slinsky was the keynote speaker at USP's conference at Luzerne County Community College on Thursday night. He disagrees with the common argument that deer destroy forests by eating all the vegetation.
Instead, Slinsky contends that deer are "nature's landscapers," and that they need to trim the forests so new vegetation can grow.

"That is their function. That is their purpose," he said.

According to Slinsky, the Pennsylvania Game Commission and the Department of Conservation of Natural Resources are responsible for that mentality. In his opinion, those agencies are trying to protect the Pennsylvania timber industry, which produces 800 million feet of lumber ever year.

"Our overall forestry paradigm is not about creating habitat for wildlife," Slinsky said. "It's about protecting trees."

According to the Penn State University College of Agriculture Web site, the timber industry is the fourth largest industry in Pennsylvania. It employs 90,000 workers at 2,500 firms, and contributes nearly $5 billion to the state's economy.

According to Slinsky, hunting equals that economic impact.

Also contributing to the declining deer population is the overhunting of buck, Slinsky said.

For every five deer, one is an antlered buck. Two are doe and two are fawns, and one out of every two fawns is male. Slinsky believes half the state's buck population was harvested during the 2004 hunting season.

During the antlerless hunting season, hunters are free to shoot doe or button (antlerless) bucks, and according to Slinsky one out of every four antlerless deer killed is a button buck.

Slinsky likes the idea of a "one and done" deer season, which is in place in Pennsylvania. There are no antler restrictions, but after a hunter gets a deer, he or she is done for the season.

The USP takes a slightly different position, according to Northeast Regional Director Chuck Beers.

Beers is advocating a return to the previous hunting setup in Pennsylvania, with a two-week buck season and a three-day antlerless season.

"It allows for button bucks and young fawns to grow up and become adults for the following season," Beers said. "If you go too long with unregulated doe, our doe population will just explode."

The last topic touched upon during Slinsky's lecture was the declining soil quality in Pennsylvania, which he believes is also contributing to the decrease in deer.

Deer are herbivores who like to eat soft brush, such as grass, shrubbery and flowers. Slinsky said they typically do not eat hardwood, the crop that dominates Pennsylvania forests.

Many make the argument that deer have eaten all the soft brush, but Slinsky disagrees. He believes those plants are not growing because of the soil damage caused by acid rain.

germain, I think Jim hits the nail on the head here, what do you think?
lost horn

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

I heard him speak recently. He made some impressive points. I don't understand why the soil acidity issue isn't getting more play.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Lost,although I'm not a USP member I do agree with most of those statements.The proplem is the DCNR flat out wants the deer herd reduced to unhuntable numbers and I'm not sure that can be changed.
Here's a thought though,the USP should sue DCNR instead of the PGC.After all one of the reasons the forests were set aside is for recreation which hunting falls under.
If anybody isn't sure what unhuntable numbers are go out this coming year and hunt the state forest with a number of 10DPSM or less and you'll have first hand knowledge what unhuntable numbers are.
Anybody trying to get their kid involved in hunting better find a place other then the state forest cause you'll have a hard time keeping a kid interested in that pathetic type of hunting.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

germain, I think you are right about the DCNR they are the ones that have been pressuring the PGC to kill the deer, as far as I can tell the DCNR thinks 1 deer is too many, I hunt Cameron Co. I dont think Cameron ever had over 15dpsm. now after years of slaughter It may have 5dpsm. or less.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

The problem with Slinsky and the USP is that they've been crying wolf for way too many years. Some of what Slinsky says may now have become correct in selected areas but how can anyone be expected take him or the USP seriously even now?

DCNR seems to have gotten too extreme in their HR goals. The PGC is struggling with the huge task of trying to get control of the herd while trying to satisfy everyone in what is definitely an inexact science. Now they are faced with a budget crisis and the threat of USP lawsuits to further hamper their efforts.

Germains suggestion that the USP direct their wrath towards the DCNR is a good one. An even better one would be to dissolve the USP and let the more sensible sportsmens groups lead the charge. We have reached a point where many reasonable sportsmen are expressing concerns and almost any group will get more credibility than USP.

A stopped watch is still right twice a day, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to count on it;)

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Sometime you have to check on the little boy that you think is crying wolf if you dont bad things can happen, most things that they have been talking about for a lot of years were ignored, go to the state game lands, they are more for bugs and butterflies than grouse, deer and other wild life, they have plenty of foxes and coyotes. The one thing that the USP missed was the DCNR in this case they are the bigger wolf. I just became a USP member this year and proud of it, I should of joined earlyer

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Radio Talk show host - Jim Slinsky?? What are his credentials,expertice to speak on the subject of deer management and forestry.

Seems this guy is only adding fuel to the fire of an already frustrated PA Deer Hunter. Don't forget deer hunters in other eastern states that might swallow his "opinions" hook line and sinker.

I hope he never comes to Delaware,because IMO sounds like 1/2 of what he's spouting his pure speculation and poppy cock!

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Jim Slinsky is hands on, I trust him more than some young punk streight out of some liberal antihunting, antigun college that cares more about bugs and butterflies than game animals, hunters in some of the other states should take note on what is going on in Pa.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Yep, because it's ALLLLL about whitetails and nothing else.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

Yep, it is all about whitetails for 99.9% of the hunters in Pa. If the whitetails go so do the hunters, I know for some people that would be great but I am not one of them. I guess Gary AltIII would love that.

RE: Give credit where it's due
 

dont forget about the DCNR they would love it also..