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Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Article by Mark Nale in the Centre Daily Times: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate The phone rang one evening last month and an angry deer hunter was on the other end of the line. To make a long story short, the voice on the other end said, "Deer are at dangerous levels in Somerset County and I'm afraid that they won't recover." He and "a bunch of guys" were going to the big sports show in Harrisburg to protest, by standing outside with signs, and that I should write about it. After a back-and-forth discussion, the caller explained that the habitat where he hunts is great for deer -- "plenty of food," he assured me, but the problem was that the Pennsylvania Game Commission had issued too many doe permits. He failed to explain how he knew that too many permits had been issued, but he "knew" that there were too many. A few sentences later, he said that the hard winters of 2002-03 and 2003-04 had killed lots of deer. I asked him why the deer had starved if there was plenty of food. Moments later, he hung up on me. A week or so later, I met Mike Creamer, president of the Pennsylvania Deer Association. "The past two years have been the best deer hunting that I've had in my entire life," said Creamer, who is in his mid-50s, and hunts in -- you guessed it -- Somerset County. How can two people have such opposite views? For the record, local hunters attending the Eastern Sports and Outdoor Show in Harrisburg reported either no protesters or two protesters standing outside the show. At the recent Mosquito Creek Sportsman Coyote hunt, I met a fellow who said that I should quit writing all of those articles supporting the PGC's "deer eradication" policy. "You don't hunt in Clearfield County," he said. "There are no deer here." The very next person with whom I talked was another Clearfield County coyote hunter. He related that he and two friends were driving a patch of laurel in an attempt to push out a coyote, and they jumped nine deer. "This can't be," I said sarcastically. "Don't you know that there are no deer in Clearfield County." Imagine that, no deer in the entire county, and this guy jumps nine in one tiny patch of laurel. An unbelievable amount of my time, as well as space on this page, has been spent on the deer numbers controversy, an issue that seemingly will not go away. I can't go anywhere without someone cornering me to ask a deer question or, more than likely, give me their opinion. All of this is very healthy to a point, but the levels of distrust and misinformation are high. I smile at the ridiculous conspiracy theories being spread around and shake my head in wonderment when I learn that some hunters actually believe them. Former PGC deer management leader Gary Alt did not have a secret agenda, nor did he kill JFK. Department of Conservation and Natural Resources State Forester Jim Grace does not own a black helicopter, nor does he want to take over the PGC. It's amazing what some people will concoct or pass along. One of the worst things is the very selfish attitude being expressed by a vocal minority of hunters. I realize that they are in a minority, but their I-don't-care-about-the-forest-or-anything-else, I-just want-more-deer attitude makes me ashamed to be associated with them. They probably don't realize it, but their attitudes are only loading the guns of the anti-hunters. In light of all of this, I offer you my take on the Good, the Bad and the Ugly of current happenings in deer management: The good u The report of the Deer Management Forum -- "Managing White-tailed Deer in a Forest Habitat from an Ecosystem Perspective": Read the report yourself instead of believing someone's one-paragraph review; u Three-tiered antler restrictions to improve the ratio of adult bucks to does: It is working; u The current doe movement and mortality study being conducted on the Sproul and Tuscarora state forests; u Aerial infrared deer surveys done by DCNR on the Sproul and other state forests: This won't solve the problem, but it will provide hard data; u The PGC's recent attempts to balance the deer herd with its habitat: Please adjust where necessary, but stay on track; u An aerial deer survey completed at the Lake Raystown property in November and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers attempt to keep deer in line with their habitat: A second aerial survey is planned for this month. Again -- more hard data; u PGC Commissioner Gregory Isabella is holding a series of public meetings to discuss deer management in his southwestern district: Commissioner, I admire your bravery; u All commissioners (well, almost all) held the ecological high ground at their January meeting. The bad u Richard Laurent's misguided one-man crusade against the PGC's deer management program: He suggests that hunters buy up all of the doe tags and then burn them. Laurent has his cute sayings -- "one and you are done," "stop the slaughter," and others. He formed the Central Pennsylvania Deer Hunters. u The retirement (resignation) of Gary Alt: Alt was the best spokesperson possible for the PGC's deer management program. His input and leadership is already missed. u Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania's public meetings held to rally hunters against the PGC: A gun is given away at each meeting to bolster attendance. Jim Slinsky is the featured speaker. u Hunters who are now writing to their representatives and senators demanding that the politicians do something to "fix" deer management: By the way, these are the same people who normally cry, "Keep politics out of hunting." The ugly u The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, working with Harrisburg attorney Don Bailey, announced its intent to sue the Pennsylvania Game Commission for mismanaging the deer herd and for not releasing how it computes its deer population estimates. This is by far the worst chapter in the "deer wars" saga. It is bad enough that this organization is attempting to institute political management of wildlife, but now they want to bring the courts into the picture. This is just what we hunters need, our legal system deciding how many deer we should have in Pennsylvania, what antler restrictions to have, how long the seasons should be or how many antlerless deer permits to issue. Do I need to remind you that hunters haven't always fared too well when it comes to lawsuits. Although one outdoor writer who is supportive of this ill-conceived lawsuit claims that part of the lawsuit's strategy "is to bolster the independence of the PGC," I see exactly the opposite. What do you think? I do realize that many hunters saw fewer deer last season. Part of this was by design -- an attempt by the PGC to lower the deer herd to be in line with its habitat. I have no answer as to why the deer numbers appeared to be radically low in some areas. I'm looking around now and seeing deer everywhere, and so are others. If you are willing to look, I think that you'll see them, too. On my 12-mile commute home from school last Wednesday evening, I spotted deer at eight different places along the way. I was driving and certainly did not see them all, but I counted a total of 27 deer during that 17-minute drive on Interstate 99 and Route 220. Last Thursday evening, I spoke with a farmer/hunter whose land lies along Route 26. "No shortage of deer on my property," he said. On March 4, Pennsylvania Outdoor News Editor Jeff Mulhollem counted over 150 deer while driving from State College toward Altoona on Route 45. "There were so many deer in one field that it just reminded me of a herd of buffalo out west," Mulhollem said. "I just had to pull over and count them." The field team working the Sproul State Forest continues to capture more deer. They now have 41 does radio-collared and this is up from the 26 reported last week. They have also captured and tagged 20 bucks on this hard-hunted public land. Hunters, once again I suggest that you step back, take a deep breath, study the information and separate fact from fiction. The voices of discontent are getting louder. If you want scientific wildlife management controlled by an independent PGC, I strongly suggest that you contact your elected officials and the PGC and tell them where you stand. Let's allow the deer managers to manage the deer. Mark Nale, who lives in the Bald Eagle Valley, is a biology teacher and member of the Pennsylvania Outdoor Writers Association. He can be reached at [email protected]. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
A couple of comments on the article.
1-Most hunters I know or talk to do care about the habitat and overall health of the forest.But they are also concerned about hunting and the mistakes of deer management both past and present. For example,2g has passed it's goal of DPSM yet the DCNR is pushing for more dmap tags.In some other WMU's with less forest and more farmland the goals are even lower then 2g.Why? I can understand farmers want reduction but the truth is if their land is open to hunting they did have massive reductions.Unless they are surrounded by posted land and in this case more tags won't help. I don't agree with the statement that hunters complaing about deer management don't care about the forest. When the hunters recently complained about the proposed flour orange regs does that mean they could care less about safety? |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
that article is just that, one man's opinion on a topic nothing more.
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
that article is just that, one man's opinion on a topic nothing more. Yep, one mans opinion. Just like any of the articles written by Slinsky. But then there's these pesky surveys that seem to keep saying how satisfied the majority of hunters are.......... |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
The deer slaughter started with fiction and lies, Now they will have to tell more lies to keep the slaughter going!!
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
What was wrong with ulysses post? I read it and it was right on the money.
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Deer are not stupid. Once they figure out that the don't get shot at on land where they see posted signs that's where they go and stay. It's not that there are no more deer, there are just not as many. The real problem lies in the fact that the amount of posted land has increased, almost expotentially over the last few years. Believe me I know, I hunt Clearfield and Center counties and haven't got a deer for the last two years now. See a lot on posted land though.
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
oh ya the deer are really smart around here. well that's what a game comm. told us.. i found out they are so smart that they can walk threw the woods and not even leave a track. and they are so clean now that they clean up after themself when they go to the bathroom. maybe they will be carrying the guns in a couple of years.
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Yep,overharvested in areas open to hunting.
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Wow, I think this boy is mad.
 Editor, CDT Dear sir, Recently I read with interest Mr.Mark Nale's column : Hunters Need To Discern Between Fact,Fiction In Deer Management Debate. For a man of science who claims to be offering us the facts, his column is way off track. His embellishments of reality and omissions of the truth are blatantly obvious. In his eyes the PGC,DCNR,Dr.Alt and yes, even J. Grace can do no harm, had nothing to do with and are now being falsely accused with being responsible for our dismal white tailed deer populations in this state. If Mr. Nale spent as much time as he claims he has spent truely investigating all the facts of this matter, he would not make such outrageous claims. He writes about selfishness being expressed by a "vocal minority" of hunters who are to be blamed with all this deer management controversy. The only selfishness I'm familiar with is the greed expressed by BIG LUMBER in this state who constantly lobby Capital Hill and apply pressure on DCNR and the PGC to eradicate our great State Animal. And how about the selfish greed of all those deer "killers" who were suckered into, fell for and perticipated in the PGC's deer massacre which was pushed by Alt by his promise of more and bigger bucks while we wiped out whole age classes of button bucks through liberal antlerless seasons. I guess Mr. Nale wouldn't consider one so-called deer hunter having the ablity to legally kill up to six deer per year through multiple antlerless tags,coupons,red tag permits,concurrent deer seasons,special and extended seasons,etc.Most of which took place on PUBLIC LAND.Multiply that by thousands of "hunters" and the results are obvious to anyone but Mr. Nale and his fellow fraternity of prapaganist outdoor writers.On top of that, he has the gall to write that he just dosen't understand why some "areas"have very few deer. I'd also would like to know if Nale would be willing to enlighten all of us about forest certification on our State Forests and the effects of acid rain on the regeneration this state's hardwood species. He should know. He has all the "FACTS". We do not have an honest, accurate deer management model in this state. If Mr.Nale can claim this, he is a liar.The model the PGC is or was using is based on their claim of deer populations at 1.6 million[35.65d/sm] critters... this is simply not true.How can you run an accurate deer model without a solid, true base number ? The learned people i have talked to estimate our total deer herd at somewhere around 600,000. If Mr. Nale wants to dispute this, i would be more than willing to provide him with my data and sources.Can he do the same ? It's interesting the DCNR [notPGC] took the initiative to do all these aerial surveys of carefully chosen areas of the state in order to obtain "hard data"as Mr.Nale puts it. My question is why this "tool" wasn't used five years ago BEFORE cramming Q.D.M. down our throats? I would like to see the proof of Mr. Nale's claim that the buck to doe ratio is improving due to antler restrictions. He just throws out this" crap" hoping it sticks to something without showing us the proof....even the PGC hasn't been dumb enough to publicly make this claim. Mr. Nale blantly failed to inform his readers that all those so-called large deer number sightings he and others are experiencing in his little corner of the world were on PRIVATE,POSTED and in at least one property, HEAVILY PATROLLED land.NOT public land where most of our lack of deer problems exist.By not giving us all the facts[only the ones he picks and chooses for us to read] he is disserving his reading public.After all, wasn't this column supposed to be about the "FACTS"? I found it absolutely shocking that Nale would praise Commissioner Isabella for holding public meetings in his part of the state. I have to comment about Mr. Isabella. At the Seasons and Bag Limits meeting in Harrisburg this Jan., the commissioner showed up two hours late for the meeting. The reason: he was running his business's booth at a Shooting Show down in Philly.He missed two hours of very heartfelt, honest testimony at one of the most important meetings the Board ever attended.If that wasn't bad enough,in the middle of a testimonial,Isabella stands up and walks out of the room.Ten minutes later, he re-enters the room,sits down at his chair and writes something down on a scrap of paper. He then passes the note down the table to Vern Ross who reads everyone in the room the Eagle's football score off of Isabella's note! Now, thats a "FACT."..I know this because i was there and saw the whole thing. If this man considers his business and football scores more important that the serious job of Game Commissioner,then maybe he should resign. I ask you, is this acting respectfully,responsibly and professionally ? I think not. He is an embarassment to all who he represents which, by the way, is in South Eastern Pa. not S.Western Pa. as Nale writes...again misinformation... didn't get his "FACTS" straight.Maybe he got Isabella and Palone confused .... not too hard since both are "birds of a feather" only different genders. As far as Nale griping about sportsmen contacting their elected officials to complain .... Just what does he propose we do, when we for the most part have a no response, "stay the course" Commission ? I suppose Nale would like us upset concerned hunters to sit back,don't get involved and let things take it's course , while he "strongly suggests"those who AGREE with him and the PGC to contact their elected officials and let them know where they stand.Unbelievable ! Mr. Nale says he has no answers as to why deer numbers appear to be in his words:"radically" low in some areas. Again he convienently fails to be specific about where deer are fewer and where deer are abundant. Instead he spews out more garbage about everywhere he looks there are deer,claiming the rest of us aren't seeing deer because we really aren't willing to do so. This is an insult !! Starting in late Jan. of this year,my friend and I toured six different State Game Lands in Lebanon,Lancaster,Dauphin,Schuylkill,Berks and Perry Cos.spending an average of five hours walking[not just the roads]on each of these tracts in the snow looking for tracks and droppings.We wanted to see for ourselves what the situation was.The overall findings were pitiful. Unbelievably, we saw no deer! As far as tracks seen: somewhere around 22-25 sets total. Of those, some were probably made by the same deer.We saw more coyote sign than deer.Interestingly, most of the areas where we found tracks we noted that these tracts were adjacent to private posted land and the deer were entering and exiting the private property.Again, if Mr. Nale wants to dispute our findings, I would be more than willing to share our data... I took field notes.These are my "FACTS". I'm getting sick and tired of the PGC, DCNR and those wildlife "copycat"writers accusing me[been hunting deer 35 years] and many other hard hunting outdoorsmen of not "going far enough in" to find all those phantom deer that are out there. No amount of "I see more deer than you because you don't truely look for them"is going to convince me and many others of that line of crap. Mr. Nale would suggest we all step back, take a deep breath, study the information and separate the fact from fiction.I would strongly suggest he practice what he preaches, because he hasn't done all his "homework" before he writes. It's bad enough he blindly supports the DCNR,PGC and the eco./biodversity crowd but he takes cheap shots at those he dosn't know anything about with no backup or evidence of "FACT". In my opinion, Mr. Nale is a poor excuse for an outdoor writer and your paper should be held responsible for allowing this biased, inaccurate diatribe to be released to the public domain. Sincerely, |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Lost Horn: the writer of this article you posted sure is mad, i agree with him. I went off to the Corps and there were enough deer around to hunt. when I get back 3 years later (this January) I have gone for several walks around my hunting area in the snow. Next to no tracks or sign. This is land adjacent to PGC land an unposted.
I too think way too many scribes want to sound the horn of the Game boys in Harrisburg without really knowing what is going on in the woods. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Sincerely, |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
I find it funny how all these people complain that are not any deer and the PGC is killing them all off. The PGC has not done the killing. Other hunters, hunters just like all of us are the ones pulling the trigger. btw... took 4 deer last season. :D
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
I came home of leave in november and my brother in laws said go get a doe tags they got them for you yet. I said I don't want to be known as the guy that shoots the last doe in this county!
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Why keep his name off? It's a letter for publication. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
when I was in the service my father bought me a subcription to GameNews by the PGC and sent it to me every month. I couldn't wait to get home an see all these big bucks the Gamenews articles says we are going to have now that the doe numbers are cutback.
came home and talked to all my neighbors at church each Sunday and all but one are now complaining there aren't enough deer and none of them shoot a big buck yet. Except the 1 man who ain't complaining, he shot a 8 pointer with a 14" rack. That to me is not a reason enough to have next to no deer, 1 little scrub buck 8 pointer aint no fair trade. I sent 3 letters to the Gameboys and not one answer have I got back, do they really care? |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
btw... took 4 deer last season. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
I am glad we all didn't kill 4 deer |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Yep, not everyone is an ALPHA hunter!  |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
looks to me like t in pa 3 is trying his best to start a fight why else would he boast about killing 4 deers to someone that posts about lack of deers?
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Killed 5 this year. Not trying to pick a fight with anyone. Not attempting to prove my hunting prowess, I didnt kill a buck. They were killed in 2B and 2D where there are too many deer.
Shot em all legally, ethically, and helped support the deer management plan:D |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
ORIGINAL: USPROUD looks to me like t in pa 3 is trying his best to start a fight why else would he boast about killing 4 deers to someone that posts about lack of deers? Why is it with only 17 posts you feel the need to go around posting about how everyone is always trying to "pick a fight". Sounds to me like you just want to get people to start arguing. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Other hunters, hunters just like all of us are the ones pulling the trigger. btw... took 4 deer last season. looks to me like t in pa 3 is trying his best to start a fight why else would he boast about killing 4 deers to someone that posts about lack of deers? Talk about reading into something... sheesh! |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
and try to make yourself look like a big shot using Alpha hunter name
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
I guess you missed the "Alpha" hunter classificastions while on duty. Maybe you need to research it a little. Not my term but I fit the description.
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Mark Nale is absolutely right in his assessment of the deer debate. We have a few uninformed, misgueded , vocal, anti establishment "hunters" with chips on their shoulders that are not going to stop until the "government" steps in to squelch this "uprising" We have to ask our selves as hunters, " dO we really want this"? BE CAREFUL FOR WHAT YOU WISH FOR GENTLEMAN, IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE ALL OF US!
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Three-tiered antler restrictions to improve the ratio of adult bucks to does: It is working; |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
1
Since when do we have a three tiered AR plan. I thought we had areas with 3 pts. and areas with 4 pt. restriction AR's do not apply to juniors, handicapped and military,so they are not part of the AR plan.. I count 3. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
slight correction here. Juniors, military etc only have to comply with the OLD AR's The fact is , the author was blowing smoke. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Wrong again. The 3" spike rule was never referrred to as AR . and the 3 " spike rule is not considered to be an AR plan in any other state. The fact is , the author was blowing smoke. Page 58, 2004 Pa digest: Statewide, all junior license holders, disabled hunters with a permit to use a vehicle and resident active duty US armed services personnel will be able to abide by the former antler restrictions of one antler of three or more inches in length or one antler with at least two points |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
[quote]ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
Wrong again. The 3" spike rule was never referrred to as AR . and the 3 " spike rule is not considered to be an AR plan in any other state. The fact is , the author was blowing smoke. Page 58, 2004 Pa digest: Statewide, all junior license holders, disabled hunters with a permit to use a vehicle and resident active duty US armed services personnel will be able to abide by the former antler restrictions of one antler of three or more inches in length or one antler with at least two points |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
That's not bad for a beginner, but that was stated 2 years after AR was implemented. Now go back to the twenty years prior to 2002 when AR was implemented and find one quote that referrred to the 3" spike rule as AR. Then , find one other state that has a 3 " spike rule that refers to it as a form of AR. I didnt toss weasel words out at you. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
no rather you just argue til the rest of us don't bother readingf anymore or call in your alias Tin Pa3 as "back up' with the Wildlife code book you keep under your pillow!
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
At least when I'm proven wrong, and it just happened, by you I might add, I admit it. I didnt toss weasel words out at you. |
RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
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RE: Hunters need to discern between fact, fiction in deer management debate
Please behave guys - No rabbit punches or hittin below the belt.
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