NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
I finally got my letter done. I will be sending it out to several different people & groups. It is a bit long, but I think it is all pertinent info. Have a look, let me know what you think.
To Whom It May Concern:
I am writing this letter in response to the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation’s proposed changes to the Southern Zone Hunting Season dates & structure. I have some apprehensions about the proposed changes and some suggestions. Let me start off with a bit of background: I am 31 years olds, have a BS in Natural Resources (Cornell ’95), have been an avid hunter for 17 years, and I utilize and enjoy all seasons to harvest deer.
I realize the difficulties and complexities involved with managing the State’s deer herd and when you combine that with trying to appease the hunting community, landowners, and other stakeholders, the job becomes even more challenging. I attended the statewide meetings a few years ago and got the impression the common ideas/goals were to increase hunter satisfaction, while effectively managing the deer herd. I feel there needs to be compromise by all parties (bowhunters, gun hunters, & muzzleloaders) to achieve a workable structure that all can “live” with. I think some of the ideas/alternative listed below may be a way to accomplish this.
1) Archery Season: Starting bow season early (Oct. 1st) will give bow hunters more hunting days and could, therefore, potentially increase deer harvests. However, many bowhunters (myself included) are not overly excited with early bow (heavy foliage, warm temperatures, little rut activity, etc.), but would be happy with the extra time for, what I would call, “armed scouting” and take advantage of the opportunity. Another possibility for early bow would be to make the beginning days (1 week?) doe only.
2) Early ML Season: I know for a fact that almost all bowhunters (BH) will not be happy with a muzzleloading (ML) season interrupting the bow season. The major reason for the opposition is the increased pressure in the woods by ML hunters disrupting the deer’s normal patterns, which the BHs rely on heavily. As a ML hunter, I believe we need more hunting opportunities to hunt with MLs. However, I think there are better alternatives. One thought is to put the week of antlerless at the beginning of the bow season (start Oct. 1st?). This would not have as big of an effect on the deer patterns since the rut is farther away and the deer will have some time to resume their normal patterns before peak bowhunting occurs. My other suggestion for increased ML opportunities are detailed in #4.
3) Regular Gun Season: I know the Saturday opener is something that has been kicked around for quite awhile now and is something a majority of hunters would like. I am not one of those hunters. I am a “traditionalist” and like the Monday opener. Additionally, as a bowhunter, I will lose a prime weekend of bowhunting. With that said, I would not be upset with the change to Saturday. I know it will help get more people in the field (some potential downsides to that) and help increase deer harvests. Additionally, to help with antlerless harvests, allow ML & bow hunters to use their respective tags in gun season. This not only could help control doe numbers, but it would give those that prefer those implements an additional opportunity to use them.
4) Late ML & Archery Season: The late ML season is where I really think opportunities for ML hunters can be expanded and equity can be achieved. Late ML season could last for 3-4 weeks. This gives those hunters more chances to get out in the field and, thereby, increases their satisfaction and the potential for deer harvests. Conditions can be ideal at this time of year, as well (2nd rut, snow, cooler temps, etc.). The conditions can also be extreme and unfavorable, but at least hunters will have a choice of whether to hunt or not. Even if there was no early ML season, these 3-4 weeks would give MLs a more equitable season. Another thought for helping increase the doe take (if it is needed) would be to have the final week or two of late ML be antlerless only (potential problem with antler drop?). By this time of the year, you will primarily have the “die-hard” hunters in the field and they are the ones that are generally just as happy to harvest a doe as a buck. Late archery could stay the same.
5) Additional Thoughts: I think the “Saturday Opener” concept is a good idea, but would not work under my proposal. My dates for the “ideal” scenario would be as follows:
Early Muzzlelaoder Season (and/or possibly Archery) – October 1st lasting 1 week (antlerless only)
Archery Season – October 8th through the day before regular season
Regular Season – Third Saturday in November running for 23 days (ML and bow tags can be used with those particular weapons)
Late Archery Season – Day after close of regular season running 7 days (any unused tags valid)
Late Muzzleloader – Day after close of regular season lasting 3-4 weeks (any unused tags valid; possibly some antlerless restrictions)
Another thought I had for helping with doe harvest and accurate reporting of those harvests is to institute a “reward” type system for those that use their DMP (for a doe, not button buck) and report it. Possibly give some additional preference points (.25 or .5??) for next year’s DMP application. Additionally, I think lifetime license holders should get some kind of preference on DMPs (.5 points?). I will admit this is a selfish idea, but lifetime license holders have made a commitment to the State and should be
“rewarded” somewhat for that commitment.
I am very devoted to deer hunting and have put a good deal of time and thought into these topics. I believe that these ideas are based in sound management, as well as, hunter satisfaction. I realize that you will never be able to satisfy everyone, but hopefully there is a way, with compromise, to get close. I think my ideas make a honest attempt do just that. Potentially, bowhunters would gain a week or two of hunting, while giving up a prime weekend of hunting and potentially having some “disruption” in the early season. ML hunters will gain several weeks of hunting, which they deserve, and the opportunity to use their tags in the regular gun season. However, they could be restricted to antlerless harvests for some portion(s) of those seasons. Gun hunters get a Saturday opener and 4 weekends of hunting. I think the DEC would get a structure that would appease a large majority of the hunting community and provide some additional opportunities for herd control.
In closing, I appreciate and understand the complexities of managing the deer population combined with trying to appease the hunting public. I think the proposed restructuring is a good foundation for needed change. However, I also believe it could use some adjustments that would be beneficial to all parties involved. I enjoy hunting with bow, shotgun/rifle, and muzzleloader and like the separate seasons for using each of those implements. I look forward to the statewide meeting next month and am eager to give my input, as well as, hear other’s ideas. Thank you very much for you time.
To Whom It May Concern:
I am writing this letter in response to the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation’s proposed changes to the Southern Zone Hunting Season dates & structure. I have some apprehensions about the proposed changes and some suggestions. Let me start off with a bit of background: I am 31 years olds, have a BS in Natural Resources (Cornell ’95), have been an avid hunter for 17 years, and I utilize and enjoy all seasons to harvest deer.
I realize the difficulties and complexities involved with managing the State’s deer herd and when you combine that with trying to appease the hunting community, landowners, and other stakeholders, the job becomes even more challenging. I attended the statewide meetings a few years ago and got the impression the common ideas/goals were to increase hunter satisfaction, while effectively managing the deer herd. I feel there needs to be compromise by all parties (bowhunters, gun hunters, & muzzleloaders) to achieve a workable structure that all can “live” with. I think some of the ideas/alternative listed below may be a way to accomplish this.
1) Archery Season: Starting bow season early (Oct. 1st) will give bow hunters more hunting days and could, therefore, potentially increase deer harvests. However, many bowhunters (myself included) are not overly excited with early bow (heavy foliage, warm temperatures, little rut activity, etc.), but would be happy with the extra time for, what I would call, “armed scouting” and take advantage of the opportunity. Another possibility for early bow would be to make the beginning days (1 week?) doe only.
2) Early ML Season: I know for a fact that almost all bowhunters (BH) will not be happy with a muzzleloading (ML) season interrupting the bow season. The major reason for the opposition is the increased pressure in the woods by ML hunters disrupting the deer’s normal patterns, which the BHs rely on heavily. As a ML hunter, I believe we need more hunting opportunities to hunt with MLs. However, I think there are better alternatives. One thought is to put the week of antlerless at the beginning of the bow season (start Oct. 1st?). This would not have as big of an effect on the deer patterns since the rut is farther away and the deer will have some time to resume their normal patterns before peak bowhunting occurs. My other suggestion for increased ML opportunities are detailed in #4.
3) Regular Gun Season: I know the Saturday opener is something that has been kicked around for quite awhile now and is something a majority of hunters would like. I am not one of those hunters. I am a “traditionalist” and like the Monday opener. Additionally, as a bowhunter, I will lose a prime weekend of bowhunting. With that said, I would not be upset with the change to Saturday. I know it will help get more people in the field (some potential downsides to that) and help increase deer harvests. Additionally, to help with antlerless harvests, allow ML & bow hunters to use their respective tags in gun season. This not only could help control doe numbers, but it would give those that prefer those implements an additional opportunity to use them.
4) Late ML & Archery Season: The late ML season is where I really think opportunities for ML hunters can be expanded and equity can be achieved. Late ML season could last for 3-4 weeks. This gives those hunters more chances to get out in the field and, thereby, increases their satisfaction and the potential for deer harvests. Conditions can be ideal at this time of year, as well (2nd rut, snow, cooler temps, etc.). The conditions can also be extreme and unfavorable, but at least hunters will have a choice of whether to hunt or not. Even if there was no early ML season, these 3-4 weeks would give MLs a more equitable season. Another thought for helping increase the doe take (if it is needed) would be to have the final week or two of late ML be antlerless only (potential problem with antler drop?). By this time of the year, you will primarily have the “die-hard” hunters in the field and they are the ones that are generally just as happy to harvest a doe as a buck. Late archery could stay the same.
5) Additional Thoughts: I think the “Saturday Opener” concept is a good idea, but would not work under my proposal. My dates for the “ideal” scenario would be as follows:
Early Muzzlelaoder Season (and/or possibly Archery) – October 1st lasting 1 week (antlerless only)
Archery Season – October 8th through the day before regular season
Regular Season – Third Saturday in November running for 23 days (ML and bow tags can be used with those particular weapons)
Late Archery Season – Day after close of regular season running 7 days (any unused tags valid)
Late Muzzleloader – Day after close of regular season lasting 3-4 weeks (any unused tags valid; possibly some antlerless restrictions)
Another thought I had for helping with doe harvest and accurate reporting of those harvests is to institute a “reward” type system for those that use their DMP (for a doe, not button buck) and report it. Possibly give some additional preference points (.25 or .5??) for next year’s DMP application. Additionally, I think lifetime license holders should get some kind of preference on DMPs (.5 points?). I will admit this is a selfish idea, but lifetime license holders have made a commitment to the State and should be
“rewarded” somewhat for that commitment.
I am very devoted to deer hunting and have put a good deal of time and thought into these topics. I believe that these ideas are based in sound management, as well as, hunter satisfaction. I realize that you will never be able to satisfy everyone, but hopefully there is a way, with compromise, to get close. I think my ideas make a honest attempt do just that. Potentially, bowhunters would gain a week or two of hunting, while giving up a prime weekend of hunting and potentially having some “disruption” in the early season. ML hunters will gain several weeks of hunting, which they deserve, and the opportunity to use their tags in the regular gun season. However, they could be restricted to antlerless harvests for some portion(s) of those seasons. Gun hunters get a Saturday opener and 4 weekends of hunting. I think the DEC would get a structure that would appease a large majority of the hunting community and provide some additional opportunities for herd control.
In closing, I appreciate and understand the complexities of managing the deer population combined with trying to appease the hunting public. I think the proposed restructuring is a good foundation for needed change. However, I also believe it could use some adjustments that would be beneficial to all parties involved. I enjoy hunting with bow, shotgun/rifle, and muzzleloader and like the separate seasons for using each of those implements. I look forward to the statewide meeting next month and am eager to give my input, as well as, hear other’s ideas. Thank you very much for you time.
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 1,157
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
ORIGINAL: doughboysigep
Late Archery Season – Day after close of regular season running 7 days (any unused tags valid)
Late Muzzleloader – Day after close of regular season lasting 3-4 weeks (any unused tags valid; possibly some antlerless restrictions)
Late Archery Season – Day after close of regular season running 7 days (any unused tags valid)
Late Muzzleloader – Day after close of regular season lasting 3-4 weeks (any unused tags valid; possibly some antlerless restrictions)
so why not just have a x number of days "primitive late season"
just a thought.
-moose
#3
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
personally I could care less about late bow. I want to ML hunt. The reason for my thinking is that bow season is already 42 days long and ML is 7. why make archery longer?? I was really trying to shoot for equity. I don't think bowhunters need to be "greedy" (maybe a bad word?). there needs to be more equity in the seasons. with that said, i don't really think there is a problem with combining the seasons.
thanks for the input
thanks for the input
#4
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Steuben County, NY
Posts: 354
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
That's a good letter doughboy...you've got some good points there. However, I don't understand what all the talk about having a longer muzzleloader season is about. There's 23 days of regular firearms season where muzzleloaders can be used. I'm planning on taking mine out during regular season this year instead of my 12-gauge. Maybe a week or two of late muzzleloader / archery at the end...but I don't think that we really need another month of strictly muzzleloader.
#5
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
You know the thing about todays muzzle loaders is there not a primitive weapon anymore. You could make shotgun hunters put a plug in their guns that only let them have one shot in the gun,and they would be at a disadvantage concerning range and accuracy.
#6
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
my line of reasoning:
42 days of bow - $16 ($180 lifetime)
7 days of ML - $16 ($180 lifetime)
why am I paying the same for a season that is 6x shorter??
Gun season is for shotguns - that's what I paid for. Yes I can use my ML if I want (bow for that matter), but that is not the point. I think there needs to be some equity in the seasons. That is all. Additionally, my selfish reasoning is that it would be nice to take a few days off after gun and still have some time to ML (it is a LONG hunting season from Oct. 15 - Dec. 21 (+ scouting from Aug./Sept).
42 days of bow - $16 ($180 lifetime)
7 days of ML - $16 ($180 lifetime)
why am I paying the same for a season that is 6x shorter??
Gun season is for shotguns - that's what I paid for. Yes I can use my ML if I want (bow for that matter), but that is not the point. I think there needs to be some equity in the seasons. That is all. Additionally, my selfish reasoning is that it would be nice to take a few days off after gun and still have some time to ML (it is a LONG hunting season from Oct. 15 - Dec. 21 (+ scouting from Aug./Sept).
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 1,157
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
the way i look at it is this : If you can kill a deer for 7 days after gun(with a MUZZ) , then why in gods name does bow end 2 days earlier than MUZZ?
if i'm pig headed and dumb enough (and yes, i am )to sit in a tree with a 30 yd max weapon waiting for a deer that i couldnt kill with a rifle in my hands for a month prior, why begrudge me that?
i think archers are at a disadvantage allready (range wise) , i never understood why i had to put the bow away after 5 days but guys i know got 2 extra days with the Muzzle loader.
and , i totally agree that "primitive" cant be used to describe todays scoped muzzleloaders.
my dad can shoot his 175 yds, better than my berretta slug gun....
but i commend you for taking the time to put your ideas on paper. i'll be at the meetings, too
-moose
if i'm pig headed and dumb enough (and yes, i am )to sit in a tree with a 30 yd max weapon waiting for a deer that i couldnt kill with a rifle in my hands for a month prior, why begrudge me that?
i think archers are at a disadvantage allready (range wise) , i never understood why i had to put the bow away after 5 days but guys i know got 2 extra days with the Muzzle loader.
and , i totally agree that "primitive" cant be used to describe todays scoped muzzleloaders.
my dad can shoot his 175 yds, better than my berretta slug gun....
but i commend you for taking the time to put your ideas on paper. i'll be at the meetings, too
-moose
#8
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
doughboysigep
I appreciate the letter - but ........Its too long.
They won't read the whole thing, I agree with most of your points - and I had trouble reading it all.
Next - You'll lose them when you start talking about being a "traditionalist" about Monday openers. Unless a Saturday Opener really sticks in your craw - I'd leave it out.
Seriously - I think we all appreciate your wanting to voice your concern - I only comment, because I'm a salesman. I'm a pretty good judge of how letters get "taken". A short, concise letter - expressing concern and understanding will be a better read.
I'm sorry - don't take it wrong. I don't mean to be negative - only constructively critical.
Take care
FH
I appreciate the letter - but ........Its too long.
They won't read the whole thing, I agree with most of your points - and I had trouble reading it all.
Next - You'll lose them when you start talking about being a "traditionalist" about Monday openers. Unless a Saturday Opener really sticks in your craw - I'd leave it out.
Seriously - I think we all appreciate your wanting to voice your concern - I only comment, because I'm a salesman. I'm a pretty good judge of how letters get "taken". A short, concise letter - expressing concern and understanding will be a better read.
I'm sorry - don't take it wrong. I don't mean to be negative - only constructively critical.
Take care
FH
#9
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
I hear ya FH, thanks for the input. I know it is long, but really couldn't find a way to cut it down. This letter will be going to "people in the know" (DEC, sportsmens organizations, etc.) so I feel they will have an "easier" time reading it (it is their "job"). However I also have a very condensed version that doesn't have any "meat" to send to political types. I feel without the meat though the letter is really pointless, but at least they know of my general concerns. I'll try and pear it down a bit. again thanks.
#10
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY hunters - finally got my DEC letter done
I agree, it is too long.
A good thing instead of a simple letter, is to get a petition of lis. hunters.
I understand about the length and not having substance. But a short letter, and a petition will be a bit more effective here.
Thousands of letters saying different things is pointless. I just watched it happen on a similar type issue in NYS.
Oh and FH, do not be so sure on the Sat. issue. It is a rather hot topic now. Refer to our pm, it is quite a hot topic.
A good thing instead of a simple letter, is to get a petition of lis. hunters.
I understand about the length and not having substance. But a short letter, and a petition will be a bit more effective here.
Thousands of letters saying different things is pointless. I just watched it happen on a similar type issue in NYS.
Oh and FH, do not be so sure on the Sat. issue. It is a rather hot topic now. Refer to our pm, it is quite a hot topic.