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BTBowhunter 01-17-2005 09:23 AM

Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Whether you cheered or cried when Gary Alt retired, here's an interesting perspective on what may lie ahead for Pa hunters....


Hunters need answers before making a move


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By Bob Frye
TRIBUNE-REVIEW OUTDOORS EDITOR
Sunday, January 16, 2005


If Pennsylvania's deer hunters aren't careful, they're going to get exactly what they're asking for.
And it will kill them.

Some hunters have been shouting for the Pennsylvania Game Commission to abandon its current deer management policy and return to the days of three-day doe seasons and lower doe license allocations.

The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania have gone so far as to circulate a letter saying they intend to sue the commission if it doesn't reverse course.


All of the complaints suggest the commission's deer management plan has worked too well.

But has it? The truth is no one knows.

Remember, the idea was never simply to drive deer numbers down. It was to drive them down and keep them there long enough for our forests to grow new oaks and beeches and other trees.

We don't know yet if that regeneration is occurring.

Pennsylvania's 2004-05 deer harvest will almost assuredly be down. A couple of wet springs, harsh winters and, yes, liberal doe hunting have all decreased deer populations in many places.

But harvest figures don't tell the whole story. Say the harvest drops 20 percent, from 464,890 in 2003-04 to 375,000 in 2004-05. Those numbers alone won't say if landowners -- including the commission -- can grow new forests without fencing them in first.

The commission's deer management plan can't offer many answers. It's supposed to cover the years 2003 to 2007, but 13 months after it was to go into effect, it's still in the review stage.

The Game Commission is kicking off a study next month to see just what percentage of does in a population are killed by hunters. The Department of Conservation and Natural Resources plans to start a regeneration study this year to see how our forests are responding to increased deer harvests.

But we're a year away from getting even the most preliminary results from either project.

Take all of that together and, if the commission changes course now, before it has any evidence that deer numbers are low enough to allow for regeneration, it will get sued and it will lose.

The groups that will be doing the suing -- ironically, the foresters and environmentalists most often at odds with one another -- have science on their side. Look at the Deer Forum report that came out last week. Forget for a minute what it says about the commission and look at the portion focusing on deer impacts. Almost all of the research out there indicates that deer have severely altered forests in Pennsylvania and the rest of the northeastern U.S.

There's no getting around that.

These groups also have the money and expertise to win a war in the courts. They are the same people who routinely stop timbering over issues like the spotted owl and Indiana bat. They will wear the commission and hunters down.

And now, to top things off, they've got the perfect expert witness to present their case.

Some have been crowing about Gary Alt's resignation, as if they tarred and feathered him and ran him out of town. In fact, all they've done is given him a spa treatment, dressed him in new clothes and chauffeured him to the opposition.

Alt is the most highly acclaimed biologist of our age, has a fame that can give him access to every newspaper, magazine and TV station around, and has the communication skills to get his message across.

You don't think he could star in a courtroom as well?

Things don't have to go that way. The commission and hunters can show a little patience, get some answers and strike a balance between those who want too few deer and those who want too many.

That will mean a few years of tougher hunting than we're used to. But if you want to carry a rifle and climb mountains in December without your lungs feeling as if they're about to burst, you've got to start exercising in August.

We've got to make similar sacrifices now if we want better hunting later.

We're close to getting answers. If we stop looking for them while questions remain, we'll only hurt ourselves.


Bob Frye can be reached at [email protected] or (724) 838-5148.

Back to headlines





edit: here's the link to the article

[link]http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sports/outdoors/s_293682.html[/link]

germain 01-17-2005 09:31 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Well they're heading in a better direction.
Wonder if it ever occured to them to take hunters who are interested,educate them,and let them give the results on deer populations and regen then report to them?
One problem I have with their statement about maintaining is that they aren't doing that.If the numbers are already below the goals in certain areas why are they still asking for more reductions?

BTBowhunter 01-17-2005 09:35 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Lets remember that the numbers are only below goal in one area.

The hunters in that area do deserve an answer though.

wingbar 01-17-2005 09:36 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
does not take a genious to see Bob Frye is a horn hunter...editorials hold little importance to me.I can find several that say the PGC has overharvested the herd in some places and bring in legislators that agree with that,two of the Advisory Board memebers themselves agree with that.

BTBowhunter 01-17-2005 10:24 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
No Matter who any of us agrees or disagrees with, It looks like our hunting license dollars are more likely to be spent on legal fees than wildlife in the near future. Maybe from two sides. From the unified crowd on one side and the timber companies, environmentalists, other sportsmens groups, etc on the other.

Unfortunately to hope the Unified crowd will suddenly realize what a rats nest they may be opening is simply unrealistic.

ulysses 01-17-2005 10:40 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
IMHO it was Alt & the PGC that opened the rat's nest in the first place. Their actions to get HR thru by using AR is what got the entire mess heated up.

ddear 01-17-2005 11:38 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

Some have been crowing about Gary Alt's resignation, as if they tarred and feathered him and ran him out of town. In fact, all they've done is given him a spa treatment, dressed him in new clothes and chauffeured him to the opposition.

Alt is the most highly acclaimed biologist of our age, has a fame that can give him access to every newspaper, magazine and TV station around, and has the communication skills to get his message across.

You don't think he could star in a courtroom as well?

Alt would be a sitting duck for even a rookie lawyer that did a little research and simply read the deer a mangement articles in the PGN and read the annual reports and press releases since Alt was appointed. Alt has many claims that are inconsistent and none of his projections have come true. Even the claims that the forests have been ravaged by the deer are easily debunked by PGC stats. We now have 26,529 SM od forested land compared to 26,264 SM in 1984. That is hardly an indication that the deer have been ravaging the forests for 80 years .

chickory 01-17-2005 11:46 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
not to mention Bob Frye does not have a very good track record of writing anything that would even be considered slightly unbiased.

He is a pro-PGC writer (do your own research and read some of his work), and has never shown any balance towards hunters.

He a pro-alt sportswriter who covers the Harrisburg beat, and I have talked to him at the PGC meetings.

If I were looking for a fair and balanced approach to anything, I would not go to Bob. :)

ulysses 01-17-2005 12:35 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
I'd actually like to see where our hunting tag fees are being spent..that is I'd like a fair an unbiased report. Seems like every WCO, Land Manager, Biologist , etc. has a new 4x4 truck, and the PGC employees seem to have a pretty good benifit plan not to mention pension plan at least better than I can afford.
Oh an let's not forget that headquarters building on Elmerton Ave, what's that running us honest hunters. $$ that could be spent on food plots,timber harvests,reintroduction of pheasants (rather than those lousy farm birds they call "wild"), etc.
IT IS the hunters that support the PGC and the PGC would do well to remember that! Thet need $$ raise back tag fees to $50 I have no problem with that,still a bargain or timber more of that sacred cow forest they are barely touching ( when did deer floursih the best? right after ww2 and the timbering of Pa).

T_in_PA2 01-17-2005 12:40 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

I'd actually like to see where our hunting tag fees are being spent
Pick up last months Game News.

BTBowhunter 01-17-2005 12:49 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Well, it looks like Unified would rather see them spend it on legal fees[:'(]

This is sorta still on topic... This is a good example why we need a loser pays rule for lawsuits.

ulysses 01-17-2005 12:56 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
T in PA apparently you missed the words in my post UNBIASED REPORT, I hardly think anything printed by the PGC is UNBIASED...do you,if so Hillary Clinton will want you on her voters list in '08

mrfritz44 01-17-2005 12:57 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
It's not the damned deer IMO, it's the fact that the forests are maturing. When was the last time a forest burned by you? And I've been in those penned off areas...thick with seedlings yes, but that's what happens when you cut down all but a few of the largest trees. The new sprouts are from the trunks of previously existing trees.

I really have to question how much "damage" the deer can really do. Foresters have a term for the maturing of a forest. I forget what the term is exactly, but it seems that's more to blame for thinner forests than deer foraging.

wingbar 01-17-2005 02:59 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
if the DCNR wants a healthy forest then ehy don't they timber their darn forests. a healthy forest is a growing forest, a "old growth forest" is a dying forest . when do deer prosper the most... in a regenerating forest the DCNR says they can't timber more cause the forests will be eaten by the deer before they have a chance to be established again. BS twhen Pa was timbered flat within 15 yrs there were so many deer Pa was the "deer capital of the world" all that time trees were regenerating and todays forest are them

germain 01-17-2005 03:05 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
They aren't timbering more because there's a push from the extremists for old growth forests.And these are the type of people that fast eddie is appointing in high positions.

Bob1961 01-17-2005 03:07 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
i think the only way to make sure PA gets the reporting they need with the report cards are to have a rule that people must sent them in or not be able to get a lic the following year....and watch how many send them in....the DMAP tags holders most do that if they want them the following year....it just sounds right.....................bob

BTBowhunter 01-17-2005 05:07 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Bob1961, Great idea! make everyone file a year end report card or they can't get a license next year just like DMAP. Bet we'd get an accurate count that way!

germain 01-17-2005 07:03 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Sounds like a plan.

ddear 01-17-2005 07:08 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
How does the PG prove that the card wasn't lost in the mail?

germain 01-17-2005 07:37 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Good point,it happens.How about online reporting?

Pa Trophy Man 01-17-2005 07:37 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

i think the only way to make sure PA gets the reporting they need with the report cards are to have a rule that people must sent them in or not be able to get a lic the following year....and watch how many send them in....the DMAP tags holders most do that if they want them the following year....it just sounds right.....................bob
Bob sounds like an excellent idea to me.


How does the PG prove that the card wasn't lost in the mail?
Just in case that happens they could always use the telephone check for those that get lost in the mail. I think that would lead to superb accuary for harvest reporting.

muzzyman88 01-17-2005 09:32 PM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
I think mrfritz makes a very good point here. All of the old growth forest, and there is a lot of them, are just that, mature, old growths on the end of their life cycle. Go in and select cut that and take out any tree over 16" on the stump once. Five years later you will see a thicket so thick you cringe at the thought of it. Deer heaven. Problem is, the tree huggers won't allow that sort of ridiculous thing to happen. Instead, we'll just let them rot inside and fall down, not benifiting anyone except some species of wildlife that eat insects. I'm not saying cut all old growths, but it needs to be looked at.

I actually heard a very interesting thing today. My family, who owns and operates a large timber company here in central PA is currently doing a select cut about 30 miles from here on state land. The game commission has set up a fenced area close to where they are cutting. During last weeks ice storm, tree came down, ripping down portions of the fence surounding this area. My father counted 27 deer inside the fenced area during the day eating. Makes a pretty legitimate case for lack of food I think.

I'm very concerned about what is going to happen here in the future. Sometimes I really wonder how much better off we are without Alt. Not saying he was 100% correct, but with the hornets nest I see is about to take place, we could be in for a real mess. And, the anti's are loving every bit of seeing us fighting over this. The image of "blood thirsty" hunters angry because they don't have as many deer to shoot fuels their ambitions.

MikeE51848 01-18-2005 04:19 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

ORIGINAL: germain

They aren't timbering more because there's a push from the extremists for old growth forests.And these are the type of people that fast eddie is appointing in high positions.
And this is where the Audubon Society enters, no? You don't see birdies making nests in sapplings. And Sierra Club members want to hike in mature canopy forests for their outdoor experience.

ulysses 01-18-2005 05:05 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
germain: you just made the full circle, I suggested on line reporting 2 months ago right on this site and was beaten down for it. Was told " ..can't get them to send in a card now....we already have some on line reporting, ...the PGC can't get up to speed with a program for on line reporting...etc."

T_in_PA2 01-18-2005 06:26 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

T in PA apparently you missed the words in my post UNBIASED REPORT
Financials are reported on by a seperate Comptoller (sp) that is not employed by the PGC. Gentleman up the road from me did it for years.

Uly, you would never be happy with anything unless you wrote it yourself.

ulysses 01-18-2005 07:13 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
and the PGC has the right to publish anything they so choose to in their rag

livbucks 01-18-2005 07:28 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

ORIGINAL: MikeE51848


ORIGINAL: germain

They aren't timbering more because there's a push from the extremists for old growth forests.And these are the type of people that fast eddie is appointing in high positions.
And this is where the Audubon Society enters, no? You don't see birdies making nests in sapplings. And Sierra Club members want to hike in mature canopy forests for their outdoor experience.

This is exactly where the pressures are coming from. The ecomaniacs want forests like the redwood stands in out West. The want to tour all the city yups thru for their "Natural experience". They also place more importance on the existance of slugs and salamanders and tiny beetles and flowers that only grow where the sun hasn't hit in a hundred years. How much economic benefit this holds over game hunting, that is the issue. Truthfully, you don't see many birds in giant mature forests. At least not on the dead forest floor. If there are birds, they exist in the top of the canopy...a hundred and fifty feet up, where you need $1000 birding binocs to see them.[:'(]

rybohunter 01-18-2005 07:44 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
Any of you guys see that BASF forestry commercial promoting forests with "no choking underbrush", visibilty and safety for hunters and those enjoying the woods? THAT is what we are up against.

ulysses 01-18-2005 07:48 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
you boys are both wrong, what we hunters are up against are horn hunters that have aligned themselves with those eccoweenies so the few deer that do remain grow bigger racks, biologists like Dr. Gary Alt that are in bed with the Audubon, etc.

BTBowhunter 01-18-2005 08:05 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 

Good point,it happens.How about online reporting?
Online reporting's time has come. Personally, I would feel a lot more comfortable reporting online and being able to print evidence that I did it than just mailing a card. Especially if they institute meaningful penalties for not reporting. I've already had them lose my kids DMAP card.
Took half a dozen phone calls to sort that one out.

ulysses 01-18-2005 08:31 AM

RE: Something for ALL Pa hunters to think about...
 
phone in are better NY has had it for sometime now


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