Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

From The Pittsburgh Tribune review:

By Bob Frye
TRIBUNE-REVIEW OUTDOORS EDITOR
Sunday, January 9, 2005


Hunters who are hoping to see big changes in the direction of the state's deer management plan anytime soon are likely to be disappointed.
The Pennsylvania Game Commission board will meet Jan. 23-25 to set preliminary seasons and bag limits for 2005-06. Final approval won't come until April, when this fall's doe license allocation will also be set.

Right now, though, , indications are that most commissioners want to continue along the present course of trying to balance the state's deer herd with its habitat.

That means a continuation of things like concurrent buck and doe seasons, an October doe season and antler restrictions.






Commissioner John Riley of Monroe County said he knows that won't please some hunters. And he understands their desire to see lots of deer.

But commissioners took an oath to serve the best interests of all wildlife for all Pennsylvanians, he said, not just the eight percent or so who buy a hunting license.

"You know what Ralph Abele used to say, it's resource first," Riley said.

Commissioners has been receiving some complaints from some hunters saying they saw few or no deer. State Sen. Rich Kasunic, a Fayette County Democrat, for example, urged them to allocate fewer doe licenses, return to the days of a separate three-day doe season, and go to smaller management units.

Charles Bolgiano, a director of the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, sent a letter to each member of the Senate and House Game and Fisheries committees asking that legislators take the authority for managing deer away from the Game Commission and put it in the hands of local stakeholder groups.

Not all of the comments being received are so negative, though, said Game Commission president Russ Schleiden of Centre County. He said he's heard from almost as many people who support of the deer program.

What hunters need to understand is that while there are undoubtedly "cold spots" around the state that have fewer deer than they once did, that doesn't mean now is the time to make wholesale changes to the deer program, Schleiden said. The 2004-05 harvest figures that will be the basis of any decisions won't even be available until early March.

"The numbers that come in will tell us what to do," Schleiden said.

"Really, we have until April to make decisions, so we shouldn't make any rash decisions now," agreed Commissioner Roxane Palone of Greene County. "I don't think we need to panic yet."

Many of the hunters who are complaining seem to be noticing bigger bucks but fewer deer overall, said commissioner Greg Isabelle of Philadelphia. That's exactly the result the deer program was set up to bring about.

If the commission didn't do a good enough job explaining its objectives, that has to be corrected since he thinks it will take two more years of concurrent seasons and antler restrictions to see if the deer program is working. That doesn't man he might not push for a reduction in doe licenses -- he argued for and got reductions last year, too -- but he otherwise wants to stay the course.

"My opinion is we have to listen to everybody and give them their say. But just because they're loud doesn't mean they're right," Isabella said. "I think we're going in the right direction."

Commissioner Thomas Boop of Northumberland County is less convinced that's the case. Boop said he's hearing two things from hunters: they want shorter doe seasons and fewer doe licenses.

"What's coming through loud and clear is, hunters measure success by how much sign they see, how much shooting they hear, what they see when they're out there," Boop said.

"And what I'm hearing is that mot of them are not satisfied with what they're seeing out there."

He's afraid, too, that the deer management program is not designed to address "cold spots." If that can't be fixed, he would entertain the idea of eliminating wildlife management units and going back to county boundaries for setting doe license allocations.

If his fellow commissioners don't go that route, Boop said the responsibility for ensuring adequate deer numbers will fall to hunters. They should consider letting does go or shooting only one per year.

"If in some areas these allocation numbers are too high, I think that's an appropriate response in those areas," Boop said.

Commissioner Steve Mohr of Lancaster County also thinks the commission needs to do an about face if it hopes to retain the support of hunters.

"The ship has a pretty big hole in it right now, so I hope they're bailing," Mohr said.

Riley, though, said commissioners need to defend the resource.

"I know we're going to get a lot of criticism, we're going to get a lot of heat," Riley said. "I just hope we're big enough to do our job right."


Bob Frye can be reached at [email protected] or (724) 838-5148.

[link]http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sports/outdoors/s_291308.html[/link]

Doesnt look like the PGC is ready to hear from anyone yet. Pro or Con.
Frankly, past of me says that any changes this drastic need time to work but I also think it's wrong if they go into these meetings with closed minds.
Makes you wonder what all went on inside leading up to ALt's retirement.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Looks like Alt WASN'T to blame afterall....

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Your probably right about some commissioners not being open minded BT, its a shame really that our system is set up with political appointees.

Thats a pretty good observation about the commission btw, I am also surprised that they are going into this Jan meeting with what appears to be a less that open minded approach.

The current deer team will make reccomendations, then they will hear testimony from hunters as they have done for a 100 years, then they vote for what they think is best.

but this year they seem to have made up thier minds before the vote.


Rem110... your comment, while funny, had no merit.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Pa.s problem will never go away because you have to many hunters. Your second only to texas well pa. isn't texas. You'll either have a health deer heard low numbers or have a unhealth deer herd to many.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Very well said.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Great Post with some common sense ideas on PA's deer management program.

What happened to the ALT bashers? That ALT guy might be gone but his wildlife management ideas are echoed by others. QDM has made its way to PA as it has in many states. Whether it be forced AR or some kind of managed Doe harvest sounds like Alt's philosophy is here to stay.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

AJ: you want an Alt basher...I'm one! and so are the majority of deer hunters in Pa, fact is more of the Advisory Board becomes one each day too.
Alt said it himself..he would never have resigned if he had been allowed to do the job he wanted...whom stopped him??? it was the Board of Commissioners an Legislators of the state whom represent hunters statewide.
yes there are some that want Iowa type antlers here in Pa but if you were able to take a vote today just what % of those 8% of Pa citizen do you think would vote Horn over herd? Darn few
902 you agree the PGC should manage the deer for all citizens not just the 8% that hunt.... I say as long as we that DO hunt are paying 100% of the PGC's operating fund that's whom they are obligated to listen to first.
No one ever said there are not WMUs that have too many deer, but when was the last time you heard a horn hunters say there are SOME WMUs with too few deer???????

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: wingbar

AJ: you want an Alt basher...I'm one! and so are the majority of deer hunters in Pa,

News to me? where do you get your stats your own personnal pole? Most every hunter I know supports Alt and his programs.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

As Alt said in the article. A VERY vocal minority is causing the problem.

I encourage ALL to write the commissioners and let the chips fall where they may! Let your voice be heard! No matter what side you're on here, we're either preachin to the choir or to a brick wall.;)

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

No way is the majority of hunters in PA against Alts management ideas. I know one or two older men who still don't belive in shooting does, and I know maybe 10-12 guys who hunt PA and are all for the HR and AR.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

That's why Alt went outside and away from the hunters to get funds for his management plan. Hunters think with their gun and not their brain. This is not about "the hunter" it is about the health of the herd and the forest.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Well, I have a problem with what was said by some of the Game Commissioners. It seems as though they are blowing off all hunters letters and comments by saying that they only care about seeing large numbers of deer. This seems to be a slap in the face to the guys who are sending in letters from accross the state talking about what they would like to see done and letting them know the situation that their area is in. I personally sent in a letter letting them know the good and the bad and discussing what needs to be done in my area and what I have heard from hunters across the state. Know I read the statements and like I said, it seems like nothing but a slap in the face!

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

We all know the small handful of ALT bashers. My point is a very simple comment to the article written in the Pitts Tribune. I take alot more stock in the comment and expertice of the individuals in the article than I do by the same ole - same ole broken record posters who will Damn anybody/everybody who disagrees with their form of wildlife management technics.

This guy Alt as I've stated in prior post had the Nadds to come up with a game plan to fix what most hunters within 500 miles knew was broke(the PA deer herd). A laughing stock in some hunting circles.

His plan was doomed to unpopularity from the get go. Hindsight is a many splender thing coming from a few armchair critics. Good for ALT. If he doesn't finish what he started from outside the PGC, you can bet somebody else will!

That's A Fact Jack

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

BM: thank you it seems like a pat on the back to the majority of hunters here in Pa.
Like I said IF the majority wanted HR and big antlers the Legislators would be pushing that wouldn't they? But the leg. / Board members go with majority rules. Certainly plenty of letters were sent by both sides, but obviously the MAJORITY came from those not happy with the current trend or we wouldn't see Alt running off and SOME of the Board calling for swepping changes....would we.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Undisputable truth......but one most close their eyes to.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

While outdoor writers all over the state are praising Alt and thanking him for his efforts ,I would also like to thank Alt for the following,

THANK YOU Alt for:

1. Stating that late born fawns were due to a skewed B/D ratio ,when in fact it was due to the late breeding of female fawns in Dec. and Jan.

2,. Stating that we had a skewed B/D ratio prior to AR when in fact it was 1:2.1 ,which is the preferred ratio in a heavily hunted herd.

3. Stating that AR would save 75K to 80K 1.5 buck and then telling us in 2002 it only saved 38 K


4. Stating that we would have more and bigger buck than ever before and that AR would double the number of 8+ pt. buck even though that was impossible as we reduced our herd by 50%

5 Stating that the buck harvest would return to normal after the 2002 season, when in fact it was 30% lower in 2003.

6. Stating that the harvest of 283 K anterless deer reduced the herd by 8% and then telling us the herd has continued to increase since 1998.

7. Stating that we had to shoot more doe to make room for the buck, but then telling us we have had no herd reduction since you were appointed.

8. Telling the attendees at the Audubon conference that the beta hunters of PA couldn't harvest a deer even if it was locked in the conference room or something to that effect.

9. Stating that there hasn't been any successful regeneration north of I-80 in the last 50 years.

10. Stating that the harvests are not responsible for the reduced OWDD ,when in fact harvests have exceeded recruitment for the last four years in 2G, thereby reducing the herd to 12 DPSM, 3 DPSM below it's goal.

Finally , thank you Alt for leaving and blaming the hunters and the PGC for your failure to reduce the herd and your ineffectiveness!

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

let us not forget the years he was in charge of the bear here in Pa and told us Blk bears don't prey on fawns. Only to swap directions when he came aboard to run the deer program and tell us BEARS ARE A MAJOR PREDATOR ON FAWNS

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Row Row Row your boat, gently down the stream

merrily

merrily

merrily

merrily

Life is but a dream

I'm drowning in this river of tears. You guys are such whiners. So what if you saw 5 deer instead of 8. So what if you saw 40 deer instead of 70. The sun will rise tomorrow, deer will breed and birds will sing. This isn't the end of the world, people. If the hunting really starts to suck, license sales will dip and PGC will react accordingly.

Look, I understand that you Alt-bashers are doing what you feel is in the best interest of the PA deer hunting population, which is a noble gesture. All this crying, however, is annoying. Either buy a license or don't buy a license. Something tells me that all you guys will be first in line to buy your tags next fall. Use thy actions in lieu of thy mouth.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

AMEN!

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

what irks you guys is that for all the stumping you did for Alt and HR it didn't float among the rank & file hunters in Pa. sorry to put it so bluntly but that is the simple truth of it like it or not

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

it is amazing/curious how much the words "truth" and "fact" get thrown around here.
just another observation

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

There in lies another major bone on contention. He shouldnt have been allowed to go to outside sources for the funding. Do with what you have not take money form those whos interest isnt with hunters. [:@]

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

when you take $ from flower sniffers for hunting reasearch you are pretty much telling the hunters you work for you are not worthy of the job!

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

That was my first reaction too. But maybe we ought to be thankful that the flower sniffers decided to work with the PGC and Gary Alt instead of the animal rights wackos. What if the timber companies, tree huggers, farmers etc etc get tired of hunters wanting too many deer and decide to fund some wacked out deer contraception plan instead. Think it cant happen? Put enough money behind todays science and it eventually will be feasible. If we dont become part of the solution, we will get stomped on as part of the problem.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Tell that to your fellow archers who have been relying on the rifle hunters to control the herd ,while they hunted for their trophies. The antlered to anterless PS ratio is around 1:5 ,but the archery harvest B/D ratio is 1:1. If archers were the least bit concerned about balancing the B/D ratio our harvest rate would be one buck for every five anterless deer harvested.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

DD well said the archers have failed miserably at harvesting does...too many of them proudly announce Oh I hunt the 2 weeks in Nov during the rut that's when all the big old mossbacks are out chasing the doe...maybe if I kill one I can get someone to think I'm a big shot video archer too!

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

wingbar, last week when you were ulylsis what ever you were. you said shoot a button buck let a doe have twins. Now you are bashing bowhunters for shooting only nice legal bucks when their easyist. You have a short memory.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

BT still stand behind what I say. You can not take money from outside sources and try to hide where it came from. The PGC has been less than honest with the hunting faction in PA for far to long. We have the right to know what goes on and if they feel that outside money is to be used then explain why or dont do it. Why should the PGC allow money from those who want less or more for that matter of something to be used? I hear what you say about the timber cos. and such yes it could conceviably happen but taking outside funding to foot the bills and fund studies still isnt right. Dr. Alt and the pgc have done more to divide the ranks of hunters the past 4 years than any non hunting organization out there. I for one feel thats just plain wrong. Will everyone agree with deer management not in my lifetime or even maybe my kids but we are at the point where our ranks are being divided more and more and we dont need it. As for my syance on it dont feel AR was needed and as for HR fine in areas that needed it. As of yet there hasnr\t been much tweaking on anything as was stated there would be. The only things I have seen are allowing AR in sra which imho is asinine. The PGC admits to not being able to control the herd in them yet by adding more deer to mix is counter productive. The wmus need to be refined more to start getting the areas that need more reduction better defined. The hard thing with that is most of those areas are in private hands and as such wont be easy to do.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Hey wait a second here guys,I resemble that remark.:D
I love archery hunting.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

WW: nothing wrong with my memory, my UNCLE though has his issues with any doe kills. I couldn't care less about the doe that are killed in WMUs that are over populated. But just as Unc Uly said, it is time some idiots open their eyes to WMUs other than where they hunt, some are defentily over populated just as some are under populated.
Archers have not been getting it done as far as doing their share of doe,harvests where needed. Basically what you have is a 6 wk season where hunters are waiting for a buck assuming they can get out with the ML or gun and kill a doe or two.
All hunters should be forced to EARN a buck by killing a doe first. That would put an end to these wannabe Jay Gregorys out there!

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Archers have indeed not killed enough early doe. Some learned to get on board the hard way after seeing the early muzzy and youth/senior doe hunt put right in the middle of their season. Some still dont get it. It's a place that needs work. But remember, we have guys who claim to be archers right here who dont want any doe killed. A few years ago Alt proposed a two week earlier archery doe only season.
The commisioners shot it down due to heat from the unified crowd and jealousy from some rifle hunters.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

I'm surprized the UBP didn't force it thru, guess the MAJORITY of hunters in Pa just didn't want a longer archery season,I mean don't they have a 6 wks already and more after Christmas???

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

One thing we bowhunters have learned is patience...
and make no mistake, It's a comin.

Th e two week extension took time, the 50 yard safety zone took time...

Yep, its a comin!:D:D:D

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

actually when faced with similar situation, the hunters of arkansas with AR/HR had thier archery season shortened...... and everyone had their bag limit dropped. That was about six years into it.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

If I recall correctly 2G is kind of unique in that regard. What other WMU is 3 below goal or are you just exagerating to make your point?

I think you know who they are and I'm not going to single anyone out and risk steppin on the rules.

edit:
I just double checked. 2 G is the only WMU under goal

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Makes for some damn tough hunting also. I hunt Lycoming Co. in 2G and its not fun to try to pattern deer for archery when your not seeing them. Even in the area I live and hunt with farm lands the herd is down. Food isnt the cause lots around good mast this past season. Habitat is there lots of wood patches and brushy areas. Not even sure it the harvest . I usually know roughly how many are taken in my neighborhood. So you tell me why its down.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

Dont hunt there so I have no clue. It does kind of stand out though. why is 2G way down and all the rest of the WMU's are over goal?

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

BT you hit the nail on the head.You dont hunt here and many of those who dont or wont realize that things are totally differant than their area. Same for me I dont hunt the SW corner or other areas of the state. Even I am not sure about other areas of 2G. Wish I had time to explore some of the other places but dut to things just dont have it. So I really cant say why some areas have deer and others dont. Is it due to habitat or something else all together. No clue. Could be a factor of poor habitat and hunter harvest combined in some places. This is where further refining of the WMUS need to be addressed. Will we see it? I doubt it. All I see in the future at least for this year is more doe tags and more dmap tags. Hope I am wrong.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

I've been hunting the area all my life.The number one reason there are few deer is because most of the land is public-overharvesting.The lack of acorns in some areas and last year's winter played a very small role in it.
The deer that didn't survive were some fawns.A double wammy from Alt you could say.He says to shoot the mature does which leaves fawns which can't survive the severe winters,kinda like killing two birds with one stone.Being on the ground and actually in those areas I'd say the DPSM is below the 12 they're estimating.

RE: Things not likely to change in PA... at least not this year.
 

ALL the better reason to not shoot does