Curious Pa deer food question
 

OK, The PGC says we need HR because there is not enough food for the deer. They then sell all the mature timber that produced acorns for the deer.So Did they not create the problem themselves?????????? Seems to me if there is not enough food ,you dont take more food away from the deer mouths

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

don't worry the horn hunting wannabes will plant food plots to feed them

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

U

don't you get tire of the same old BS?

I think I can speak for most of the others here - WE DO!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

PGC only timbers off 1% each year for a 100 year rotation plan. They didn't even reach 1% this year according to this months Game News.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

D:
don't read it..pretty simple,eh?

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Mature oaks are not good year round food for deer, they supply great food for a few weeks when they produce, which is not every year. Year round the deer need browse to make it through, removing the mature timber allows browse to grow.

--Bob

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

The PGC could do something other than raise timber for deer feed. They do plant food plots on game lands on a very limited basis but it's not a meaninful amount. I'm not sure but I think the cost of planting those food plots keeps them from doing it more extensively.

Why not institute some type of sharecropping arrangement where private individuals plant crops that are also beneficial to game and leave a part of the crop standing instead of paying for the use of the land?

Maybe it's an idea that won't work economically. I'm not a farmer. Are there any open minded farmers out there on either side of the HR/AR thing with information or insight on whether the idea is feasible.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

the PGC already does that

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Then they need to do more of it! especially in areas where the forest habitat needs some relief!

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

My my BTB do I read a hint of anti PGC in your post? How dare you question those sacred employees of the fine state of Pa

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Yep PGC already sharecrops the majority of thier SGLs, and acorns only make a part of a deers diet for a few weeks in fall. In winter deer mainly shift to browse, and pa's forests according to the Bureau of Forestry are "predominantly mature" meaning ready to cut at the 1% a year rate. (Actually DCNR shifted thier rotation in the new forest mgmt plan to be variable, it used to be 100 years, now it is 80 to 100 depending on species composition)

So no, cutting mast trees and replacing them is not detrimental to wildlife, it creates the diversity of sapling stage, pole stage, and mature that is needed for ALL wildlife.

And the pgc does already (has for years) partnered with private landowners in CREP and co-op projects to create food for deer.

Pa can support decent deer numbers with the habitat we have today, it has for decades, but the enviromentalists are drawing a line in the sand and saying there cannot be a tradeoff of flora for wildlife. (trees for deer)

Well there always has and always will be a tradeoff. If you go by ecoweenie standards in pa we will have few deer <12dpsm. If we accept the tradeoff, even Audubon says our state could support between 18-20dpsm before affecting regen.

So why is the PGC at 12dpsm ave. for our DD goal?

Its an extremist goal meant to make a point, but is not a realistic goal for longterm and statewide.

The DD goals are way out of whack, and in the next few years they will be changed.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

The reason they don't is because the soils on most game lands are so poor that it would not be economically feasible to grow a crop to be marketed.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Thanks for a concise, reasonable answer DD.;)

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

You are certainly welcome. Anytime I can be of service just ask.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

People get way to hung up on the mast crop.Like someone else mentioned,it only lasts for a while and it can be extremely sporadic.Besides red oak is the major cash crop and deer aren't all that crazy about red oak acorns.Most lay on the ground to rot unless the turkeys pick them up.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

The DD is extremely variable throughout the state. In the western counties they have been holding probably betwwen 70-100 dpsm for the last 10-15 years. But the land will only be able to withstand that for so long. that is why they need herd reduction to get it down to around 40-50 dpsm. In the mountain counties with mature forest the habitat can only hold between 10-15 dpsm and if the herd is at 20 then you need HR. I think as deaddeer said it is very good and important for the clear cutting as the regrowth provides a year round food source not just a 2-3 month food source.
The problem occurs when there is not a big enough clear cut to withstand the browsing or to many deer browsing on it that it can't properly regrow with hardwood timber. The better the habitat and the healthier the animal the more it reproduces and the more animals that need to be killed.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Ulysses,

I think you confuse BTB and I for being diehard PGC fans. Granted, there are things that we like but I know that I have problems with some of the stuff the PGC does, and I am pretty sure BTB does too.

Now, as far as what all could be done. Well, if the soil on the SGL's isn't good enough, fertilize and lime it. Then plant something for the deer. Afterall, hunters put alot of money into the PGC each year, and it is about time that they start seeing some rewards for it. Afterall, if they could improve the habitat, then a good deer density study and a accurate projection on what the carrying capacity is could be done and we could aim to keep deer levels there (which for alot of areas would mean that we could have more deer in the area than there currently are).

Planting corn on SGL's may sound like a good idea, but truthfully corn isn't all that beneficial to deer. I believe corn has a protein rating of around 12%. Now, plants such as rape, turnips, chickory, clover, alfalfa, ect... all have much high protein ratings also, they have a very fast regenerating period and they produce a huge amount of food each year!

My best-friend's uncle owns a farm here in Indiana County and he has it in a program where he has to keep it open to the general hunting public, and in return the PGC will "help" him out by sending him free food plot seed or stocking his farm with pheasents each year. This may sound like a good deal for him, but, the PGC will send a maximum of 30# of food plot seed yearly (probablly enough for 1/2-1 acre depending on the mix). The problem is that he would have to take time out of his busy schedule (farming along with be a foreman for a construction company), and spend that time tilling the ground, then he would have to purchase the fertilizers and lime with his own cash, till that into the ground, spread the seed and pack the ground. Alot of work for somebody who already doesn't have enough time in the day for his own work! Now, if the PGC would send out a crew to do the work, it might be worth it for him. Heck, this past August he gave my best-friend and I a blank check and told us to go pick up our own seed and we were gonna spend the weekend putting in a good food plot and that is what we did. He maybe saved $30 on seeds but that is it (and these seeds were probablly better than the mix the PGC sends).

If the PGC really wanted to help the land, they would plant food plots on SGL's (to help the deer through the winter when the browse gets low), and they could also fertilize the oaks in the woods in order to get a better acorn crop. Select clear cutting would also help by allowing areas to have some new-growth (which produces alot of food for deer). Also, you have to remember that no matter of food and bedding area is going to matter if there isn't a water source in a close distance. Putting in some small water holes wouldn't be a bad idea either! Adding variety to the food sources for the deer would be very beneficial. Deer have pretty much three sources of food in one year, corn/alflalfa/clover, acorns, and browse! The alfalfa and clover are good in the summer, and the acorns and corn are good for the fall, then the deer have browse left to get them through the winter and into the spring when green-up starts (and still they don't have any solid food source).

If the PGC was really worried, they would look at the fact that deer need to have a food source year round, not just half the year! I am pretty sure that deer would do MUCH less damage to the woods if they weren't forced to survive on browse for close to half a year!

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

All of the foodplots and habitat management benefits won't be seen though if there is too many deer. Deer numbers need to be managed and that is what the pgc is trying to do. If the game lands are being overhunted they should put the doe permits on a lottery like some of ours in WV and only allow so many be taken each year.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

cardeer, I agree with you to a point. If they leave the white. red oaks and beechnuts the deer and other critters will have a basic food source. When a forest is selective cut you keep the mature food source and you also start ground level growth for additional neutrition. We recently selective cut 88 acres and the growth of small, ground level plants are springing up all over the area. By spring the area will offer more than acorns and beechnuts, there will be brouse for all the critters.;)

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

The same is true if there aren't enough deer left to benefit from the additional food.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Whatever deer are left will benefit from the increased food and if it's logged they will benefit from the increased cover. Have you ever seen the black and white pictures of the meat poles from the early 1900's with all of those big bucks they used to kill. That's because the whole country east of the Mississippi river had been clear cut and was starting to regrow and they had unlimited food and because the deer numbers were so low. You couldn't produce that number of big bucks today cause there are way more hunters now than then but with low DD and ample food quality deer can be produced. You just have to hunt a little harder for them.
Look at the quality of the deer in eastern OH compared to western PA. There is a big difference because of deer density, even though they have similar habitats, OH has half the deer. In western PA damage to the native habitat is probably happening at the high levels of that they hold and those deer need reduced. In the mtns there will never be the quality or the quantity of farmland deer. The only way to increase the quality and quantity of the mtn. deer is through large scale timber cutting and clear cutting, and I'm sure that the hunters wouldn't approve of that.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

sniper: but once the deer nip off the top of those succulent young trees they are shot they will never produce a single acorn.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Can you cite a source to support that claim? Is there any county in Ohio that has les than 12 DPSM?

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

qdma.com on there deer density map it looks like about 63 of 88 counties are below 15 dpsm and the other 25 counties are between 15-30 dpsm. They don't have the mtn counties like PA they have vast farmland with more than enough food but no cover to support a deer herd. The PA mtns have cover but no food. Any type of monoculture is bad for deer even if it is a 1000 acres of soybeans they will be lacking something.(cover) Thousands of acres of forest with no open areas and no timbering just can't support that many deer. All of those deer that ran around the PA mtns years ago when the hunting was "good" was because it was just coming into a closed canopy forest. There was still thick under growth plus the mast trees were starting to come into there prime. At the same time the farmlands were completely open and had no cover for deer but now old farms are grown in and there is a perfect mix of mature forest, thick over grown fields and open ag land. And that is where all of the deer are in the state now.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

In NC PA the herd has been reduced significantly in just the last 10 years. Elk Co. went from 30 DPFSM in 1995 to 19 DPFSM in 2003 and it wasn't due to a decrease in the quality of the habitat, it was due to high anterless harvests. The fact is the herd in 2 G is being managed at 2 DPSM below the goal of 15 DPSM. The goal of 15 DPSM is 50% below the max. carrying capacity for 2 G ,so there is more than enough food and cover available to support more deer.

The areas in PA with the best mix of forest and farmland have the lowest OWDD goals of any WMU's in the state. WMU 5 B has a goal of 5 DPSM while the goal in 5 C is 6 DPSM. How many trophy buck will those areas produce when hunters will only be able to harvest 1 buck PSM.

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

Holly Poop Deaddeer thats where I live and hunt. 5c and 5b, You made my day

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

CarDeer if your really interested read this A Conflict between Forest Renewal and White-tailed Deer: A Silviculturist’s Perspective on Values

Susan L. Stout

USDA Forest Service

Forestry Sciences Laboratory

P.O. Box 267

Irvine, PA 16329-0267

sstout/[email protected]


http://www.audubon.org/chapter/pa/pa/Stout11Nov99.htm

Lefty

RE: Curious Pa deer food question
 

On a link to the Audubon Society, I have serious doubts about anything that orginization would publish in the guise of better deer management.