Goliath is dead!
 

I saw an article on this in the paper, but couldn't cut it out. I spilled coffee on it by accident. But Goliath is dead. He was 7 1/2 years old and he did get to spread his genes before he died. I also understand that he was stolen from a deer farm in PA in 1999 and later returned. They were supposed to do a surgery on the corpse or something to determine the cause of death. I suppose it was natural causes. Anybody know anything else?

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

I understand they are prosecuting the guy who supposedly bought him. It looks like he may have been the theif and not an innocent victim. If he did it, I hope he gets more than a slap on the wrist. he was gone from his rightful owners for 5 years.

Wonder how many of Goliaths progeny are out there?

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

I haven't heard that, but here is some info on goliath...

http://www.doublediamonddeerranch.com/goliath/
http://www.doublediamonddeerranch.co...iath-found.cfm

I encourage anybody that visits North Western Pennsylvania, to visit Double Diamond Deer ranch. They have some amazing animals there!

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

They do have some amazing deer.
For anyone who hasn't been there, it's worth a trip. Something I find especially interesting is that they have each deers sheds from 1.5 to the present and the best bucks were very ordinary at 1.5 and many were not AR legal. They give a good lesson in the value of letting bucks age a bit.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

i go to a preserve the wilderness lodge and the man who owns it andy is the one who found the deer when it was stollen the deer was just under 15 miles from his home. andy would buy genes for his deer at other places but he just started to raise deer that are over the 200 bc. if you guys hunt preserves for rams hogs or anything the wilderness is the place to go great guy and the prices aren't bad. and just so you know they did file suite against the guiy who stoll the deer just going threw court now.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

they are livestock, just like pen raised anything. Take a young bull an let him get 5 yrs old sure he's going to look like the bull of the woods. But he is not living in the wild is he? neither are those deer at Dbl Diamond are they, they are being feed every vitaman the best feed etc to promote antler growth. Another poor example of a horn hunter's logic "just let them get past 1.5 yrs old so I can have a MONSTER WHITETAIL BUCK to hunt for the club" yuk it's starting to stink around here!

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

That is correct. Deer at double diamond ARE fed everything they need to grow good racks and body size right from birth and STILL many of em aren't AR legal at 1.5.

Just proves my point that age is a key factor in antler development

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

I say it proves my point...any buck that isn't AR legal @1.5 should have been culled as a BB. Why feed more males in any population than what is needed for breeding? A horn hunter will say " So I can get into some book", a real sportsman will say keep 1 male for every 35 females and eat the rest at .5 yrs

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Now that makes alot of sense.

The FACT is that these deer all grow up to be nice bucks if left to live another year or 2 past 1.5.

Enough already with the button bucks. You've already admitted that you don't shoot them. You don't seem to be ruffling any feathers with it. Just making yourself look silly for thinking that way.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

902 actually it does make alot of sense. Think about it. How many bulls do you see in a dairy herd? How many roosters in a chicken coop?How many boars do you see in a hog barn?
Also not all deer grow up to be nice bucks by 2.5-3.5, no more than all foals become Belmont Stakes winners
A nice buck is whatever someone thinks is a nice buck to them. I've killed some 6pts that weren't what some guys call nice. I've also seen some spikes that I thought were very nice..like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder...a BB to me is the most beautiful when he is skinned out and cut up. What more beautiful backstraps could anyone want???????

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

There you go again.
Since I'll be up your way next season. How about I bring up a couple "young'ns" who will hunt and drive deer all day and we'll shoot every darn button on your property and the properties you have access to. Not mine of course. Then at the end of the week we'll invite all of Ulysses for a button buck deer roast. I'm sure they'll all be happy with you.;) You can just tell them that you are culling out the inferior bucks.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

ok with me but not 1 doe or you'll get slapped with a trespass fee of $750, that is part of our "posting agreement" among us landowners around here.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Dear U
The ratio for a farm is not the ratio for wild. In another reply you where saying the deer at a ranch are fed vitamins and are not real deer. Then you compare to a farm with male to female ratios. You don't agree with PGC management, you think there biology is wrong. Well lets let politics run our sport and there won't be a sport. The bioligists in NJ say we needed a bear hunt but the politcians say no. Keep politics out of my wood and fields. You can't beat a man at his own trade. Biology works! We can harvest unlimited does here and I still continue to see 12+ deer per day of hunting, fishing, or trapping. It sounds like you have no clue about farming or game management. Long live QDM! There are more deer now then when my grandfather who is 80 was hunting. All they where aloud to kill was bucks with atlers greater than 3". So there where no does killed. Just bucks and we have more deer now than they had in the 30's-80's. History is a good indicator of the future. Learn from you mistakes and you are wise to not learn is just stupid. I cull all weak of any species.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

One buck to 35 does, eh? Hmmm, wouldnt that be something! Bucks are alot like batteries, they wear out. You might THINK one buck breeds all those does, but he doesnt. He breeds a majority, but the smaller bucks that he starts running off eventually get in there, trust me. Many does are bred by more than one sire during that heat cycle. Certain bucks are much better at passing their genetics on to other generations. As an equation it happens, but as far as desirable attributes passed, some are better than others. Bucks wear out, and nature needs another buck as a back-up. You need proof? Check the sex of twin fawns. Its almost always fifty-fifty, bucks to does. Nature produces as many does as bucks, and nothing is by chance or accident in nature. Mortality rates are higher on bucks, as they do wear out and usually die before does do.

Goliath was the result of a past breeding with a true super buck, PA Geronimo. Geronimo has passed down very well, producing many trophy animals. Goliath may well do the same. Time will tell. Antler replications of Goliath are now available from his famous 400 inch score of last year. If someone were seriously interested, post here and Ill get you in touch with a fellow named Stewart Valentine.

Deer in captivity enjoy many "perks" which help antler development. First and foremost is selective breeding programs, as genetics come first. Age, feed and stress are the other components. Because wild deer are collective feeders, they too can grow to capacity if given the years needed to do so. The biggest threats to antler development in the wild is poor feed, like when a major food source fails where one is traditionally strong, also age and finally overpopulation, where genetic pools are diluted. Thats been proven inside and outside the fence.

If I showed you guys pictures of some of the deer Im familiar with, youd cry! 150 inch yearlings, 200 inch 2 yr olds, it goes on and on. Theres at least one other buck I know of that flirts with the 400 inch class besides Goliath, its name is Highroller...youll be seeing pics of him on the covers of some of your fav Hunt rags soon.

Thanks guys, I enjoyed the chat!

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Welcome to the forum, Bill!!

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Bill while I agree with everything you've said as I have been raising somem sort of animal all my life I do believe it is wild deer living without all those perks hunters are interested in.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Wingbar, Im sure you just missed my point. For arguments sake I said yes, captive bred deer enjoy many perks. But I think its easy to prove that where wild deer meet that same criteria, they grow big too. Lower herd densities is the wild equivalent to selective breeding, aka natural selection and pure genetic pools. Age is age. Nutrition is also self explanatory. Stress, or the lack of it, comes with age and the availabilty of cover. The difference is, in captivity we as farmers supply these things, in the wild its often by chance. So it goes that the trophy animal is also sometimes by chance. As a deer farmer AND a taxidermist, I see it successfully each year, both methods.

Heres to hoping it happens for you, too. Good luck to you, wingbar.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Bill be careful we are not suppose to post "for arguments sake" I'm certain BTB will be only too happy to point that out to you :)
BTW some of my family are deeply involved with elk farming here in Pa, near St. College,Pa

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

A nice buck is whatever someone thinks is a nice buck to them. I've killed some 6pts that weren't what some guys call nice. I've also seen some spikes that I thought were very nice..like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder...a BB to me is the most beautiful when he is skinned out and cut up. What more beautiful backstraps could anyone want???????


If a wild buck needed to breed 35 does he would be dead by New Years Eve....do you listen to what you post or are you just mentaly challenged?

Edited personal attack, please refrain, thanks Rob

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Uly you compare domestic herds to wildlife. In the wild it should be close to 50-50.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

mr yox made the statement about deer farmed deer. But in truth in the wild the same 1 male is physically able to service most the females in his home range, that is 1 of the reasons you see bucks traveling outside their normal homerange during the rut, looking for receptive does

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Nope, Mr Yox was making that comment about wild deer. In my opinion, wild bucks breed every doe they can get to stand, but remember, with as many bucks out there, and all does cycling at about the same time, its just not possible for one buck to catch them all. Thats why overpopulated areas see a decrease in trophy potential. The reason why they so often travel outside their normal range is looking for those first few receptive does before they all come into cycle. Once a doe is in heat, a buck very likely will stand by her and breed her as many times as she will stand for him. What do you suppose is happening to all the other receptive does at that time, while he has her sequestered, seperated from the herd, to breed? Hes going from one to the next, but hes not going to service them all, and they wont cycle again for another 30 days.

In captivity we often give him X number of does to breed, but hes by himself with no bucks to run off, so he gets the job done a bit easier. I dont want to sound argumentative, just offer another opinion for you guys to consider.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

:eek:?

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

28 days and that is why you see trophy potential plummet. Lesser dominate bucks are breeding those other does while Monster Whitetail gene pool is staying with that doe.

IMHO that is one step in lowering deer numbers in Pa. Less doe being bred if you have less buck, while leaving fewer DNA positive bucks to breed with fewer offspring of those DNA positive doe.
Be it race horses,cows,hogs,emus,elk whatever all breeders know you are much more apt to produce a quality offspring by breeding supierior genetics. The same holds true in captivity or the wilds.
you wouldn't breed a donkey to a blue ribbon philly and produce a Triple Crown winner would you?

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Im not sure what you are saying now, but Ill try. What Im saying is, too many deer makes for lesser quality deer. Dominant bucks breed, and of course, to some extent so do most of the other bucks. But the best does cycle and stand for the better buck, natural selection touches on this. The lesser bucks can still have the similar DNA as theyre most likely related to the dominant buck. Lower herd numbers just helps insure that the healthier better, and in theory, "trophy" bucks do the majority of the breeding. Antler restriction rules on the other hand, are just insuring that the buck, regardless of what potential he has, lives long enough to make an attempt to reach that potential. I believe they use antler restrictions simply because the average laymen hunter isnt able to field judge deer for age. Its difficult for most, especially in a hunting situation.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Bill: what I'm saying is in reply to some ..ok maybe just one Monsterwhitetail hunter...is that while he screams we don't need a deer behind every tree only big bucks so the horn hunters are happy an he can try selling hunts here in Pa too is:
you don't need a buck behind every tree either, there is no need for a 1:1 or a 1:2 or even a 1:10 ratio. you know as well as I, be it wild or captive a few bucks can easily breed nearly every doe in their homerange and those that aren't bred first go round are 90% sure to be bred next cycle along with most every 6 mth fawn that comes in heat in January too.

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Ok, gotcha. Being new to this site, I havent quite gotten used to how some of you guys post (talk) just yet. I didnt really think we were disagreeing!

This argument will always come down to those who want quantity and to those out there who would rather sacrifice numbers for quality. heck in my opinion Id shoot a doe over any button buck, any day, anywhere. Its not even debateable. In fact, anyplace Id hunt that the owner has any clue about management would want it that way, too!

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Bill I see you're a "fawn" but apparently you either don't hunt in Pa or have your own private places to hunt in Pa.
Cause here in Pa mainstream hunters are so strapped for a place to hunt they don't have the priveledge of finding landowners whom prefer you to shoot a doe over a BB. Heck when they get on public land it's darn near any deer they can get a shot at that is reduced to bag bologna .
glad to have you on the board, Rone

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Wing, Im one state over, in NY. Its the same set up here, only the guys who do allow permission are all starting to lease the land, something we all saw coming ten years ago. Many have different ways of doing what they feel is managing. Finding land to hunt is harder each season. Also, NY states DEC wants to really thin out the numbers, but because of so many areas being off-limits to hunting, theyre allowing hunters to literally scour the land they can hunt, to drastically lower numbers. It seems they use an average as a median for a deer count, rather than look at areas individually. The glory days of 90% success rates looks to be a thing of the past here. I still recall those seasons when it seemed more like 40% rates. Oh well, with less interest in hunting, and fewer deer, at least we will see some hogs...

RE: Goliath is dead!
 

Geez, sorry about that, I got on a roll, and off topic. I wouldnt be all that happy about the antler restriction rules that you have in PA. I know why they did it, but I just have a hard time telling folks that they cant shoot certain animals, straight across the board. I wish, maybe naively, that guys would soon graduate from that "Yep, I got MY buck" mentality and CHOOSE to hold out on a young buck. Let him go, not be told you have to. Theres too many scenarios out there. Just practicing some selective hunting in an area will reap rewards quickly. I dont believe you could ever truly manage a herd that big, with that many hunters participating, and be successful both in deer and in happy hunters. Too many variables.