Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

I'm in favor of putting all Pa buck tags on a lottery draw by WMU. Anyone else agree or for that matter disagree?

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Why? what scientific study or research has shown that we do not have enough bucks in pa to breed and have a healthy herd? None done here in pa is the answer...

So why conserve bucks?

Dr. Rosenberrys very good article published before the AR/HR fiasco clearly showed we have plenty of buck to get 90% of adult does bred and even 25% of the fawns. A good breeding rate before AR ever was even begun as a carrot to shoot more does.

No need for tags for bucks, because no one has shown that there is a need scientifically to keep bucks around longer.

Unless you really aren't using science, but instead trying to appease rack hunters. Yuck!

Makes me queasy thinking we want to manipulate nature and the resource for our own desire to brag over a rack to the guys at work. [:'(]

really with the herd at its new reduced size, thanks to cutnrun Alt, there is less need now for more bucks than ever before.

Repeal AR since its not needed, skip buck tags they too are not needed unless your a wannabe. Harvest away and we keep the herd small the way the nonhunters and timber companies want it.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Chickory, You crack me up with your "wanna be" rants. LOL. It makes no sense to me.

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RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Our B/D ratio was 1;2.1 before Alt was appointed and our late breeding was doe to fawns being bred in their first year.
That hasn't happened in 5 C where I hunt. There were fewer buck rubs and scrapes than I have seen in the last 20 years and the rut was less intense than normal because there were so fe adult doe to be bred.

The goal for 5 C which includes Notrhampton ,lehigh, Berks and buck Co. is 6 DPSM. At that level deer hunting will cease to exist in 5C because all the deer will be in safety zones and posted ground.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

anybody that knows me knows I distain "cutnrun" and his HR program where they are not needed. Where they are needed fine but I still distain Ole CutnRun anyway.
AR is here to stay, face it the PGC is not going to repel them anytime soon. surely not in the next 5 yrs or so.
I suggest we put the buck tags on lottery just like Ks,Iowa,Mt,Wyo,Colo.,etc. I really can't think of any state that has a good quality healthy deer herd that doesn't have them on lottery. Keep the point restrictions as well. Call this horn hunting,wannabeing, anything you want but the end result will be a larger % of mature antlered deer in the existing deer herd ( note deaddeer I said EXISTING deer herd,not the herd today as compare to 10 yrs ago)
The benifits should be to mention a few: the obvious nicer older rack bucks, hunters wanting to hunt for meat can apply for doe tags in WMUs with an overpopulation of deer thus putting more hunters in the field where there is a deer # problem cutting back on hunters in WMUs without a deer overpopulation, etc.

Deaddeer: while I agree with your stats on HR your stats on AR reaaly don't impress me. Stats can be adjusted to make any point anyone wants. It is simple enough to do, solely because for every stat that says one thing another can be produced to say the opposite, when both are really viewpoints in the end.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

There would be too many PA hunters headed out of state.If they don't get a buck tag in PA they would just head elsewhere.What they need to do is cut back on the anterless tags and get the populations back in check on public lands.Alot of areas have exceeded the goals of herd reduction yet they want more.

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RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

But deaddeer says if we have too many deer then they will be killed by cars anyways.LOL:D

I agree Ulysses, just give it time before you burn down the PGC.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

The buck harvest in 1999 was 197K. If we had 10 times as many doe there would have been 1,970,000 doe and 250,000 buck for a total herd of 2.22 M. But , in 1999 we had less than 1 M deer so how do you explain a 1:10 B/D ratio?
It is impossible to have an B/D ratio of greater then 1:3, if 90% of the adult doe are being bred and there is an anterless season every year.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

"Deaddeer, I do not know where you got that fact from, but according to a biologist I know from the QDMA. He lives in Pa and said before Alt put his plan in the woks. The buck to doe ratio throughout most of Pa was 10:1 and higher."



You better do your math again sport!!!!!

PA ain't got no 10:1 ratio of anything unless you count those who are against the current deer plan : those who like it.

Pa's B:D ratio before Cutnrun Alt blew into and out of town was around 1:2.1 and not a problem at all for the buck to get the
does bred.

#1 problem you got so far is you listened to a Kip Adams clone (or worse Kip) and he ain't exactly truthfull when spinning his tales about deer. QDMA is not exactly a solid source for any deer data.

Start with a 100 deer in your 1 mile area and pick how many you say are buck (X). Shoot every one of them in rifle season and then have your does give birth in the spring and they have as boys as girls. Your ratio (even if you overshoot every adult buck in hunting) will be right back to 1:3 in the spring.

Anyone who tells you that you or Pa had a 10:1 ratio is a snake oil salesman who is spinning BS.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Other than those attempting to discredit ALt and his deer plan, Who here believes that the pre AR BD ratio was 1 to 2.1???? Every third deer would have been sportin a rack. Thats just plain ridiclous!!

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

I do, and not every 3rd deer had to have a rack they could just as easily be BB. your posts continue to show your complete lack of knowledge of deer

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

OK let me clarify it for you: I was referring to adult deer and every third adult deer having antlers is still ridiculous. (at least it would have been before AR)

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Bt let's see a mature doe drops twin fawns on the average, that's 1 mature doe,an possibly 1 doe fawn and 1 buck fawn 1+1+1=3 today just as it did back in 1945 when I was in school

"course if that doe dropped her twins around my patch I'm pretty sure that the BB would be in the freezer before the end of October. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Button buck it makes my mouth start to water just thinking about those chops!

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Wrong again. In jan 2001 we had 1 M OW deer. In 2001 we harvested 203K buck and carried over 60K for a total PS buck population of 263K buck and 641K PS adult doe, which produces a B/D ratio of 1: 2.4.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

When is everyone going to realize that Ulysses is always right and we are all blind to everything in the world.

Man I'm glad I have him looking after what I don't see.:D

OH yeah, 1:2.1 ratio.............Thats a good one!:D

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Do you have one bit of documented evidence that shows that we didn't have a 1 : 2.1 B/D ratio in 2001. If you are capable of doing simple math you would realize that with a harvest of 203K buck in 2001 and an OW herd of 1M, the buck to doe ratio had to be better than 1:3.

Remember ,we are discussing the adult breeding B/D ratio, not the ratio of antlered to anterless PS deer!!!!!!!!

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Oh boy)$!$@*%!_

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Show me a hunter who believes we had a BD ratio of 1:2.1 or even 1:2.4 in 01 and I'll show you a guy who thinks Bill Clinton didn't lie!

Once again you crunch the numbers to suit you. You yourself have refused to believe the ow deer number you hjust cited and we were killing 85-90% of all adult bucks not 70% before AR

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

Whether hunters believe it or not is irrelevant. The simple fact is when 91% of the adult doe are being bred and the vast majority are producing twins, it is simply impossible to have a B/D ratio of greater than 1:3. Just because you can't comprhend simple biology and basic third grade math doesn't mean it isn't true.

Wrong again. I belived the OWDD of 1M deer in 2001 ,but what I questioned was the 8% herd reduction caused by the 2001 anterless harvest which was less than the 2000 anterless harvest.

I never questioned that we harvest 80% of our 1.5 buck or 80 % of our PS buck pror to AR.

Now I have a riddle for you. Let's say an archer sees 5 antlered buck from the same stand during archery season and can identify them by the number of points and shape of their racks. During the same period he sees 30 adult doe. How does the archer know how many of the adult doe he saw more than once?

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

2 posts later:

Now lets see..... 263k + 641k = 904k according to my math.

Maybe you're right, I dont understand the "simple math" that allowed you to add 263K and 641k to come up with 1 million.

Simple math or convenient math????

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

The 1 M deer are OW deer and the 904 K deer are the adult breeding population in the fall prior to hunting season. The change in the numbers is due to non-hunting adult mortality that occurs every year. You should know that by now.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

deaddeer,

your numbers are baffling, almost mind numbing. you ask others for their "proof" or documentation, yet never give any of your own. why is that?? just curious.

when you spew those numbers of yours, why not list the sources so everyone cand go look for themselves. then they won't have to take your manipulations and interpretations at face value.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

If you took the time to read the PGC press releases and annual reports on their website, you would know where all the data I post comes from. Also, if you would read pages 69 to71 of the Hunting Digest , you would find many of the same stats I post.

If you don't know where the data came from , how do you know I manipulated it in any way?

Does anyone know how to delete a double post?

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

If you took the time to read the PGC press releases and annual reports on their website, you would know where the data I post comes from. Also, if you would read pages 69 to71 of the Hunting Digest , you would find many of the same stats I post.

If you don't know where the data came from , how do you know I manipulated it in any way?

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

You know DD, you probably have some valid points in your posts but you barrage the board with such a deluge of numbers that makes it impossible to tell. Some of your numbers come right from reliable sources but some you've concluded by crunching the numbers in your own way.

If you want credibility here, identify the source of each number and admit to the ones you've come up with and try and make your case. The way you do it now makes it all suspect at best. It looks like the classic tactic of tossing a deluge of "facts" all at once in order to make verification impossible or at least very difficult in the hope that these "facts" wont get checked or questioned.

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

It is simply not practical to identify the source of every stat in every posts. The harvest data is available on the PGC web site and in the Digest. The percentage of 2.5+ buck harvested is also found in both sources. Applying PGC percentages to PGC harvest data is not manipulating or twisting the data to suit an agenda. It is just simple math. The antler survey data is availabe in the 2002annual report and the new OWDD tables are available in the 2003 annual report. The comparison of the old computer model and the new computer model is available on page 31 of The DEER Management Plan.

Now that you have most of my sources ,please feel free to point out any mistakes I may have made!!

RE: Put Pa buck tag on a lottery
 

It is simply not practical to identify the source of every stat in every posts. The harvest data is available on the PGC web site and in the Digest. The percentage of 2.5+ buck harvested is also found in both sources. Applying PGC percentages to PGC harvest data is not manipulating or twisting the data to suit an agenda. It is just simple math. The antler survey data is availabe in the 2002annual report and the new OWDD tables are available in the 2003 annual report. The comparison of the old computer model and the new computer model is available on page 31 of The DEER Management Plan.

Now that you have most of my sources ,please feel free to point out any mistakes I may have made!!