Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Well, I've heard of people being fairly skeptical about coyotes having that much of an impact on the deer population, but I've always thought they would have more of an impact than hunters would. Onto the story... Apparently locally here in upstate, NY the DEC found a coyote den and set up a camera for a few months. Over the course of that time there were several coyote pups living in the den. Apparently during there first few months the parent(s) brought back 27 fawns to the den for them, 27!! Now if that doesn't have a fairly hefty impact on an areas deer population I don't know what does.

That doesn't hold a candle to the 6 or 7 deer that get taken each year in the 100 acres I hunt on. Looks like its time to do some house-cleaning on coyotes in the area.

Tim

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Got a link for this story? Saw a similar account on another site only it was a guys friend with the camera. Sounding alot like a "rural" legend/rumor. Would like to see the documentation.

Steve

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I don't think there is any formal story on this so I don't have anything saying its not a rural legend or rumor. Just a story that was relayed to me by someone who talked to a DEC officer.

Tim

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

File it with all the other "stories" - don't take this personal, but it is very easy to be skeptical.

Steve

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I really don't dought it.
We found a den site still active last summer it had lots of deer bones around it.
Many were fawns.
I personaly have shot 6 youts while they were chasing deer in deer season.
I have a good friend that traps them 2003 take was 15
so far in 2004 take is 30.
Sheep farmer in the area has lost a lot of lambs to youts.
Dec came in & said wild dogs so he started shooting them along with some of his friends Dec came back & tried to trap the rest on the den out.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

They do take deer regularly. A couple of years ago while hunting VT I came across a doe skeleton in the fresh snow. There were parts of the animal scattered all over and we had 6” of fresh snow. There was coyote scat scattered all around and judging from the tracks there were at least 6 -10 yotes of all sizes. I back tracked the carnage and came to a spot where 2 deer were eating in a grown up field bordered by goldenrod bushes. You could see the yotes set up an ambush and must have rushed the deer from different directions. One got away but all the tracks led up to the one that was killed. They literally tore a whole front shoulder off the deer and the head/neck was severed. All the yotes must have divided up the kill because it was scattered over an area that was the size of a small house. All the bones were picked clean and there wasn’t more than a few scraps of hide left. Due to the snow fall I surmised that the kill occurred the day before.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

First, I've never personally seen more than two Coyotes together at once. I'm sure they do get into bigger "Packs", but I've never witnessed it. What I have seen is some pretty amazing, and BOLD behavior from some of our local does. I live in the Town of Maine,NY, with a good population of Coyotes. On more than one occasion, I've watched a single mature doe, with fawns, run off one or two Coyotes in the field. The Coyotes would cruise the field edge, just looking, and the does would agressively pursue them. They got out of the way real quick! I think if fawns are with mature does, they should be safe.
Now throw in an injured animal and it all changes. Not to say that Coyotes don't kill their share of fawns, but they're opportunists. They're going to pursue something that's sick or injured, as opposed to getting their heads literally kicked in.
Those numbers you posted just seem a bit ridiculous. At that rate, the DEC wouldn't need to issue any DMU permits any more!

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

J-Bow I know what you mean about actually seeing large packs. When I see them they are usually alone except during the winter breeding season. There are lots of them in my state and often at night you can hear them howling and banding together for a hunt. Sometimes at camp in the night we hear them carry on for minutes on end and believe me there are more than just a few. In the case that I stumbled on the evidence was pretty overwhelming. They did take the smaller of the 2 deer and the tracks indicated that they had the deer surrounded and caught her in less than 50 yards. The kill site covered more than 30 yards and the final eating spot was another 20 to 40 yards away. Another time while I was in a bow stand at the edge of a field I saw 3 coyotes come out of a swamp and 1 stayed at the edge of the field in a hedge row and the other 2 went into the swamp. About 5 minutes later out came a deer with the 2 yotes right behind her. They ran right by where the other one was hiding and they all took off across the field. I figured the deer must have gotten away because she was in good shape and easily put some distance behind her. Only problem is that the yotes can run that way forever and the deer can’t. Nature can be really cruel.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I've got a friend that hunts coyotes all winter. He regularly finds carcasses and lots of tracks. There's no way to tell what the deer died from, but judging by the number of carcasses he finds thoughout the winter it doesn't look like natural causes...unless you consider coyote kills natural. Coyotes are very efficient predators, so it wouldn't surprise me to find them bringing a bunch of fawns back to the den....easy pickin's if you ask me.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

JN- I agree, they are efficient preditors and are part of the balance of nature. I view them as natures way to eliminate over crowding. On years where the deer population grows dramatically the following year the yotes usually have a good breeding season. When deer are scarce then the coyotes don't reproduce as well and there are less of them. Around here the coyote numbers really rise when the snowshoe rabbit hits a high cycle. I think that is their preferred meal when available.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

here in Pa a few years ago I hit a buck with my bow and thought best to finish the tracking job the next morning. While doing barn chores I heard a pack of 'yotes open up in area later that night, it sounded just like a pack of beagles that were cold tracking a ra bbit their yaps changed when they jumped the buck as I stood in the barn doorway listening. At first light I sneaked into the area and found where they came upon my buck. ALL that was left was the head sans the nose an 1 eye and the bones, with some of the hide scattered about. and that was only 5 hrs later!

that winter my son killed 7 'yotes with his 22-250 out on the snow using a varmit callaround the area

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I agree with this. I have seen a mature doe chase a adult coyote and 3 pups off of her fawn. Man she was pissed. Chased them right into the river.

But the situation changes with heavy snows or wouded/starving deer. Advantage is with the coyote then. I think they really add to the kill during heavy winters.

Just finding bones near a yote den, or fur in the scat dosn't mean the coyotes killed a healthy adult deer. The deer could have died from other causes and the yotes simply found or finished off the deer.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Like I said, I can't confirm 100% that its true unless I find out who the DEC officer was and attempt to contact him. Or my father does know a different DEC officer, I'll have him ask next time he runs into him. Maybe we can confirm it or find out more info.

I can tell you a different story thats pretty amazing and 100% true:

A few winters ago just after daybreak, from my living room window I saw a bear break out of the woods into a field at full sprint with 4 coyotes not far behind. The bear had something in its mouth that it was carrying around. Two of the coyotes broke out in front of the bear and were apparently attempting to "surround" it. They wouldn't get to close, and if they did the bear would lunge at them and they'd turn and run back a few feet. This continued for a minute or two until the bear apparently got fed up, dropped what was in its mouth and the coyotes grabbed it and all 4 took off into the woods and the bear went the other way. My jaw was on the ground for about 20 minutes.

Tim

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

It's funny...I was just going to make a post pertaining to this topic. This seems to be the popular story this season...seems like everyone has put trail cameras on coyote dens this year. I've heard several stories so far about so and so's cousin or brother capturing coyotes bringing from 20-40 fawns back to the den or of people finding 30+ fawn skulls scattered around a den site. I can't hardly believe the crap some people come up with...before you know it everyone around starts to believe the stories. For example, I think that most everyone on here has seen the trail camera photo of the mountain lion stalking the deer. That very photo has been circulating around my town for the past couple of weeks with claims that the picture was taken in New York. Everyone is just eating the pic. up as solid proof that there are cougars in NY State. You ought to see a few of the looks that I've gotten when I've pointed out the black "mule deer" tail on the deer in the photo and tell them, "not unless we have mule deer running around too." It's just unbelievable how this stories can get out of hand so quickly.

Anyways, I know that coyotes take their fair share of deer every year when the opportunity presents itself (mostly fawns and in the winter adults ithat are in bad shape), but there is no way that they kill as many deer as most people think they do. You gotta stop and think that coyotes are not strictly venison craving carnivores and most of their diet consists of small mammals such as woodchucks, rabbits and lots of mice and carrion that they come across. Besides, I don't know how many times in the past few years that I've been out spotlighting and have seen a coyote or a couple of coyotes out in the middle of a bunch a deer. Most of the time the deer don't seem to be too overly concerned and seem to pay little attention to the coyotes and usually just keep right on feeding. I know that alot of areas (included my area) faced less than great deer hunting this past season and I guess that people need to blame it on something...but I don't believe that it has a whole lot to do with a vast overabunance or deer killing coyotes. Besides, I certainly haven't noticed what I would consider to be huge increase of the coyote pop. here in the western finger lakes region of the NY state over the last 2-3 years. The only realistic things that I can think of that can cause a serious decrease in the deer herd over a large area to such a degree would be a disease (such as EHD or blue tongue) and the harvasting of really large numbers of does by hunters.

Just my thoughts on the issue!!!

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I don't know about the rest of you,but I will do some coyote hunting this year after the terrible season in WNY where I hunt.When I was younger,there were never any coyotes around the area.Last year a guy trapping near my parent's house got 18 coyotes.I might as well get a coyote or two too.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Woodchucks? Rabbits? What are those? I haven't seen any since I started hearing coyotes howling at night 5-6 years ago. Also used to see 30+ turkeys at a time, several different groups of them. Now I see the same group of 12 every couple weeks. And we haven't had any real bad winters the past few years. Heck were halfway through December and I haven't seen anything more than a dusting of snow so far.

Also, I would assume if there was a disease taking out large numbers of deer in NY we'd have heard about it correct?

Tim

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

The idea of coyotes affecting deer numbers to the point of humans raising an eyebrow on it is complete BS. As mentioned earlier, the diet of a coyote varies by season. At a few points, yotes may go after deer, but it has to be in the right circumstances. Some include:

Heavy snowfall creating poor foraging of non meat food, and other small game for yotes making them hungry, plus the effect of it on deer (poor food conditions making deer stressed and weak, suprisingly, deer are very manuverable in snow due to their design)

Fawn drop and early fawn growth. Obviously this takes place, but it is nature at it's finest.

And if any hardships result, then yotes make do some bambi hunting.

Coyotes much prefer smaller game that wagers less danger to them despite pack orientation. I am sure you would rather go punch a 5 ft 145 pound guy in the face than a 6' 5" 325lb offensive lineman. Same principle, coyotes do not want to get the snot kicked out of them.

Also, coyotes prefer the small game due to their ability to hunt it. Ask a farmer in farm country, you'd be suprised to find out how coyotes often follow farm machinery in the field. This is because the machinery disturbs small game and flushes them out creating predatory oppotunities. I have two pics of coyotes on my game cam this year, and it coincided with the harvesting of the corn field around the woodlot.

Until a legit experiment with established and confirmed data has been released by different organizations offering a consensus, coyotes having a sever impact is only BS based on rumors.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Tim you can bet if there was a disease Alt would take some scrapings an release it into Pa's deer herd!

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Coyotes are getting to be a huge impact on everthing, rabbits, squirrls, domestic cats & dogs. They take fawns as they are being born, pretty aweful if you ask me! Do you also see the size of these cannies they have bred with the Red Wolf! Packs are bigger & stronger! There is a season , get rid of them, I have one now that has been trying to lure my Ausie from the farm, I understand the end result is the pack is waiting! That makes me a bit pissed, he is a working dog on a horse farm, of course the deer are hiding in with the horses.........Look at there scat, nothing but Deer of course it is an impact!!

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Until a legit experiment with established and confirmed data has been released by different organizations offering a consensus, coyotes NOT having severe impact is only BS based on lack of facts.

But seriously though. If small, easier to hunt game is so readily available I want to know why I need to hear large numbers of coyotes yipping and yapping at night 100 yards from my front porch and then find full grown deer carcasses laying 20 yards from the road the next morning. The last coyote we shot looked to be healthier and better fed than I am.

Tim

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

wasn't it just a couple years ago that after YEARS of research to the opposite Alt reversed himself and said BLACK BEARS are a major predator of fawns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ODD isn't it that was just after be went from BEAR biologist to DEER biologist??? That liar can't even cover his own lies anymore.
Now state biologists are trying to convince us 'yotes don't have a major impact on fawns, hmmmmmmmmmmmm think I'll pass my judgement on past lies.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Must be you don't spend a lot of time in the outdoors or your is in
it's own little world.

Think about this!!!!!!
As yout population grows so does the need for food- fact.
Youts will take the easiest meal it can get - fact.
A new born fawn is a very easy meal-fact.

A new born to 2 mounths old are an easy meal for a yout
and mom will leave them for a short time & if you don't belive that ask a farmer how many fawns he has run tru his haybind or almost has.

I'm not blaming youts for all the deer herd problems but in my area
as the yout population got bigger over the years the deer herd seemed to shrink.
There may be other reasons for it but over hunting in my area is not one of them.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

those damn yotes pounce on the deer in the winter deer yards of maine from what ive read they will kill for play like mousing.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I have never seen that from coyotes but domestic dogs are a different matter. The worst killers are often the neighborhood pet that is allowed to run. They kill and leave the dead deer.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Tim, I'm not saying that we had a major disease crisis this past year in NY, I'm saying that it's one of the things that can have a major impact on the deer pop. A few fall ago an outbreak of EHD took out and estimated 50% of the whitetail herd in regions of Montana. I live in the county and some nights you can go out on the front porch and here coyotes in every direction. We've heard them around here like this for well over 10 yrs. I'm out in the woods every chance that I can get in the spring either turkey hunting or shed hunting that and I've never found an overly large amount of dead deer. I'm sure that a vast majority of the ones that I have found were shot by hunters and unrecovered. They are real easy pickings for a hungry coyote then. As far as the turkey pop. around here is concerned, its definately down from where it was in the mid-1990's but I believe that it has alot to do with the poor hatching conditions that have occured over the past several years not coyote predation. Biologists claim that the turkey pop. can drop by nearly 50% in just one year based on the outcome of the hatch. We've been seeing fewer woodchucks too, but that's because all of the prime hayfields around here have been converted into corn over the past several years.

Cougar,

Here's some basic biology for you. I've heard of this coyote breeding with red wolf theory several times from people. Just so that you know....according to my field guide of North American Mammals, a red wolf is a small coyote-sized wolf (40-70lbs) that is found in the south/southwest. They are highly endangered in the wild, almost to the point of being exterpated from their entire native range. If coyotes are trying to breed with red wolves in the wild...they must be having an pretty hard time finding companionship...that is, unless the DEC has been releasing red wolves into the wild. Even then, how would northern coyotes breeding with a small species of wolf that evolved in the south make our northern coyotes bigger and stronger? If wolf / coyote hybridizing has occured and created a race of super coyotes it would have had to have been with the large, northern GRAY wolf which is the common wolf that everyone thinks of. Even then, the closest pop. that I'm aware of is found in the northern most reaches of the upper midwest (MN, WI, MI) and canada. The reason that our northern coyotes are so much larger here in the north than they are in the south is due to a phenomenon known as Bergmann's Rule which dictates that mammals in northern climate have evolved to have more body mass in order to minimize bodily heat loss in harsh northern climates. It's the same for whitetails. That's why the deer found in Saskatchewan and Alberta (the northern most and coldest reaches of the whitetail's range) can reach 300-400 lbs, while those deer in the warmer south in areas like TX (although the same species---Odeocoileus virgininanius) normally only reach a fraction of that size.

Fastfire,

I agree with what you say about larger coyote pop. needing lots of food and coyotes preying on the easiest prey they can get and it's true that a newborn fawn is pretty much helpless to the advances of a hungry coyote. Coyotes certainly do take a fair number of fawns throughout the spring / early summer...but the idea of coyotes killing almost every fawn in the woods is ridiculous. Coyote predation on fawns is just nature's way of thinning out the surplus of the fawn crop. That's why does in good habitat usually have twins to compensate for anticipated natural mortality on the fawns. The reason that farmers get so many fawns while chopping hay isn't because the fawns are totally helpless, but rather because a fawns main defense against predators is laying still and allowing their spotted coat to act as camouflauge until the threat passes by. When the farm machinery gets to close the fawns just see it as another predator and usually hold their ground until it's too late to escape. As far a coyotes go, think about it...if coyotes ate all of the fawns every year, the deer pop would crash within a few years and then in turn so would the the coyote pop. I'm beginning to think that alot of folks believe that there are actually more coyotes in the state than there are deer. The rules of nature dictate that there has to be adequate food sources available for a predator pop. to grow and thrive. If coyotes ate mostly deer and the deer pop. was being thinned out too much up to the point that there weren't enough deer around to feed all of the coyotes, then the lack of prey would cause the coyote pop. to suffer as a result.

Like I said earlier: There's no question that coyotes do in fact kill and eat deer...the more deer that are around the more that coyotes will have the opportunity to take, but the diet of a coyote is very similar to that of a fox which is composed mostly of mice and other small mammals. That's why areas that experience a large increase in the coyote pop. usually experience a similar decrease in the fox pop. due to the larger, stronger coyotes outcompeting the foxes for food (I don't think foxes take too many deer). Predator-Prey relationships are very complex cycles with lots of variables.

I don't live too far from you (about 1/2 hour east of Hornell in Steuben County) and I agree that the deer hunting this year sucked over most of the Region. Last year wasn't that great either (2002 was probably the best take I've ever seen around here) and I don't know why...I saw plenty of deer and videoed lots of nice bucks in velvet around the area for the past couple of summers. This year, once bow season got here most of the deer just seemed to vanish. It was really wierd. During gun season we do alot of deer drives and saw tons of tracks and sign but never really got on the deer that made them. Personally, I think that our main problem was that our best hunting land which is about 250 acres of the thickest, nastiest bedding cover in the entire area was put off limits this year (the guy that owns it wanted to make it into a sanctuary for deer)and the deer really stacked in there and never left the security until dark. I think that alot of bucks made it through season this year which it pretty unusually for this area. We should see some really nice 2 and 3 yr. olds and maybe even a few 4 yr. old bucks around next year. I've been out bowhunting for the past few days and there are deer tracks all over the place! We can only hope that things will be better next season. I just think that too many people are jumping the gun and blaming the entire lack of deer sitings on predation from coyotes

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

They can definately do some damage to a deer herd in that situation, but that isn't the case for my area here in the western finger lakes of NY, our winters aren't nearly as severe as they are in other regions of the state and northeat.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Well I'm not blaming EVERYTHING on the coyotes, just saying that I think they have more of an impact then alot of people give them credit for (or discredit however you want to think of it).

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

should i hunt them afternoon(like 2-dark) or morning

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I noticed that this year and last year there was no sign of coyotes. The prior years you heard the coyotes at night howling especially after sunset. 3 years ago me and my friend were bow hunting the last day. As soon as the sun started to set we heard the coyotes start howling from all sides of us. We climbed down and packed out treestands. They were less then 100 yards from us and kept howling. From the time we left the tree stands till we got out of the woods the howling never got anymore distant. Everyone says that coyotes are afraid of people but im not saying we were stalked but the howls never got anymore distant from our departure. The past 2 years deer populations had a drastic decline along with rabbit along with coyotes. I'm gonna experiment with some coyote hunting this winter to see what is or isnt out there.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Did anyone here about the WOLF that was shot in Wayne county during buck season? Heard this from a good source !! The wolf was well over 100#'s and had a BRASS tag in it's ear. It was mistaken for a coyote and shot. The hunter reported it to the PGC when the tag was spotted on it's ear.
Never heard another thing about it!!!! Imagine That !!!!!!!!

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

I am almost laughing at the responses that I am reading in this post. I am no biologist or any type of scientist. I am however an avid outdoorsman that is out every season and I can tell you all this.....Coyotes absolutely muckle the deer. They do not only kill the sick, young, and old. They do travel in packs and have an organized method in which they kill. They are not afraid of a mother with fawns.
Coyotes are eating machines. The colder it gets, the more calories they burn, the more they eat. They use strategies, and are very smart. If you want to kill them, not a few here and there, I mean kill em all....read on.
The absolute best method to kill these things, other than trapping, is with a fully choked semi auto shotgun over bait. Not a little bait....alot of bait. To the tune of a few hindred pounds of bait. Bait just before a snowstorm and either clear a tree ( way higher than deer)at least 30ft or set up a shooting house about 40ft away from the bait. (always keep the moon in mind in your set ups) Walk away for a week. When you go back to check your bait, do it from a distance with binos or drive by the bait in your truck, sled, 4 wheeler or whatever. DO NOT walk over to your bait or even close to it. You leave boot tracks and you can forget it. Dont educate em. If its getting hit, wait for the next miserably cold night, and get into position at least 1 hour before dark. Wait em out. DO NOT shoot the first dog or pair that comes in, unless they stop to eat. If they stop to eat, not just smell around, let em have it. Usualy they do what I call a buz- by. One or two will come out, cruise around your position, sniff around, and leave. They are the scouts. Let em leave!!! Within two hours, the whole crew will come back and then you can lite em all up. Most winter family groups are between 4 and 8 animals. Once you light them up, don't leave!!! If you wounded some, the rest will come back even though you just scared the crap out of them. They are VERY family oriented and they help each other.
This is not bull crap....this is years and years of freezing my butt off when any normal person is in front of a fire. If you dont see them, stay. They ALWAYS show up to a bait that they are hitting hard. The hardest part is waiting them out. The only exception is if one starts barking. If this happens, you mine as well pack it up cuz you have been had. I could go on forever on this subject, so I guess now would be a good time to end this post. If anyone has any questions...just ask. I will help anyone with killing these things. I absolutely hate them. They are the devil if you ask me. Just a lttle smarter.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

Not blaming it all on youts but in my area it has had more to
do with it than you would think.
I have been on stand during bow & had deer go by on fire and with in a flash here is mr. yout in hot persuit.
Worst part is this is in broad day light no where near dark.
I agree that this was a weird year lots of deer seen till opening of bow then less an less seen then opening of shotgun all most no deer.

RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
 

And you must not read very well....... Re-read my now in bold statement on fawn drop. I clearly acknowledged what you just....:eek:

PS. Any knowledgeable outdoorsman would know what was already explained.....Fawns hide because it is their only defense to predation...hence the common occurences of fawns becoming bales of hay.