kotten

This year was by far the worst hunting season I could remember. I believe the state has to do something to change the hunting regulations. This is a copy of the letter I sent to the DEC. I would like all feedback both good & bad about the letter. I want to get an idea what most hunters are willing to change in the regulations so I can go to these supposed public meetings & speak out. I am going to be posting this on many other websites to get as many feedbacks as I can. Please give me some input. Here it is:


To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Ken Otten & I own 220 acres of land in Otsego County. I also have control over another 215 acres that border me. In total there are 5 people that hunt on 435 acres. I am an avid hunter & would like to see a healthy deer herd with opportunities for everyone to enjoy. I am a big fan of the way Pennsylvania has restructured their hunting opportunities. I believe NYS can be a leader in this way also, but now is the time to start. But before I begin, I would like to commend you on your re-thinking of the hunting opportunities for the state of New York. I like some of the new ideas & would like to input some of my own. I know the DEC is getting a lot of input from all over the state between hunters, biologists, task forces, farmers & from anyone else that has an opinion. This writing is of my story & my suggestions. Some of my ideas may be good & some bad, but you can take from it what you will. I’ve been trying to implement a management system on my land to grow bigger bucks & have a healthier herd. I've shot some nice bucks over the years, but since doing some spare time taxidermy work, I have seen what the potential could be for the deer in my area. Three years ago I stopped shooting young bucks in favor of Does. Last year I initiated food plots on my property along with those shooting practices & this is what the result was. Three years ago, we had about 35 to 40 deer on the land. This was a combination of bucks & Does that we saw in the fields during the summer & winter months. After the food plots were in, we had the same number of deer but only 2 bucks. They were a year and a half 5-pointer and a year and a half 6-pionter. They were there in the summer & stayed during the hunting season. Unfortunately, they were both shot by neighboring farms during the gun season. A two and a half 8-pointer came in and bred the does. We passed on shooting him to let him get bigger & he was there and alive until well after the season was over. Last year, we took 7 Does off the property. When the summer came, we still counted about the same number of deer (between 30 to 35) in the food plots. Of these there were 5 yearling bucks. One 6-pointer, three 4-pointers, & a spike. Throughout bow season we saw these bucks on a regular basis. Then what we believe was the 8-pointer we left last year returned & was breeding the Does. We saw him on a daily basis for about 2 weeks just prior to the gun season, then he left. As the gun season came in, the yearlings were still there but the 6-pointer had broken off both antlers and was barely legal as a buck & one of the 4-pointers had broken off one side. The broken horn 6-pointer stayed for the 1st week and then within a 24 hr timeframe left our property & was shot about 2 miles away. The other yearlings were also shot by neighboring farms. This past week we saw the spike breeding the Does. So far as of this writing, we shot 3 Does. One was a year and half Doe with 2 fawns. My problem with this scenario is that the state has procedures in place to control the Does but nothing to control the buck population. Each year, the new crop of bucks are being harvested & there is no carry over to let them get to an older age. It’s not a healthy herd when the year and a half spikes are doing the breeding. Unfortunately, I cannot control this. But the State can. I don’t have data to go on, but here’s what I think:

1. I think there should be antler restrictions of 3 or preferably 4 points to a side during the gun & muzzleloader seasons and possibly the archery season. This will let the little ones get a little older & force meat hunters to shoot Does to put meat in the freezer. This will increase the antler size & quantity of bucks while decreasing the herd for damage control. With an influx of larger bucks, the State can get more revenue out of the out of state license sales. Out of state residents would be more likely to come here if they thought they could get a trophy buck like in Illinois.
2. I’m not in favor of an Earn a buck program for NYS residents because I believe it would reduce the herd too much. I think it would work if you used the Earn a buck program for out of state residents. They would benefit by being able to take 2 deer with the one license while letting NYS residents get first chance at the bucks. This would bring in more out of state hunters while reducing the herd. The way the state has it now with the DMP permits can better control the Doe population.
3. Lower the big game hunting age to 13. At this age they are more inclined to take up the sport without being sidetracked by other social behaviors. I don’t believe there should be a special season for them, but they should be allowed to shoot any 1 deer of their choice without any restrictions. This should be done every year, as long as they have a junior license. This will get them hooked at an earlier age & keep them interested as long as they shoot something.
4. I don’t believe there should be an early muzzleloader season, even if it’s antler less only. I believe the early season shooting will spook the deer prior to the regular gun season. Also, from what I’ve been hearing around, a lot of people are talking that if there is an early muzzleloader season & they see a nice buck, they will shoot it & never report it. I think having people going into the woods with a firearm in the early season, is asking for trouble. What I would suggest is to reduce the regular gun season to 2 weeks with 3 weekends. Then implement a muzzleloader only season on the following week with all the regular season regulations & benefits carried over. You don’t have to have the regular season that long. Most of the deer are shot within the first week anyway. This would give the muzzleloaders their own week plus they could still use their unused DMP permits from the regular season. Also on this week the secondary rut would be on and their chances would be good to tag out on a good buck. By decreasing the cost of a muzzleloader license to $10, I believe you would get more state income by the increased number of sales. Hunters wouldn’t mind spending the extra money to extend their season.
5. I like the idea of opening the gun season on a Saturday & the bow season 2 weeks earlier. The only thing is that the period of the bow season between Oct. 1 & the 15th should be for antler less deer only. In this way the herd can be reduced & the bucks wouldn’t have bred them already. This period, as well as the rest of the early bow season, could be used to qualify for the Earn a buck program. This would give out of state residents a chance to fulfill their requirements early on. It would also increase the number of bow hunting sales.

This is how the season would work out in 2005:

Oct 1 – Oct 14 Early Archery (Antler less Deer only)
All Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Antler less only)
Non-Resident hunters can use for the Earn a buck program

Oct 15 – Nov 18 Early Archery (Either Sex) – with or without Antler restrictions?
All Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) – with or without restrictions?
Non Resident hunters can use for the Earn a buck program on Antler less Deer
Youth & Disabled Archery license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Nov 19 – Dec 4 Regular Season (Antler Restrictions)
All resident Big Game license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
All resident Big Game license holders can take 1 Antler less deer with a DMP license
Non-Resident Big Game license holders can take 1 Antler less & 1 Buck with 3 or 4 points to a side (after the Earn a buck rules are fulfilled) – If the Antler less rule is fulfilled during Early Archery season, then only 1 Buck can be taken & no Doe
Youth & Disabled Big Game license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Dec 5 – Dec 11 Muzzleloader Season (Antler Restrictions)
All resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
All resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 Antler less deer with a DMP license if it is not used during the Regular Season
All Non-Resident Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 buck with 3 or 4 points to a side
Youth & Disabled Muzzleloader license holders can take 1 Deer (Either Sex) without restrictions

Dec 12 – Dec 18 Muzzleloader Season (continued) and Late Archery Season
All leftover tags are valid (Same rules apply from earlier seasons)

I hope some of this can be used to have a healthier Deer herd & to give the hunter’s of this state the opportunities and satisfaction they deserve. From what I have always been told is that the Deer belong to the State of New York & it falls upon you only to make these decisions. The buck herd needs to increase and there needs to be an age structure within it. Future generations along with my 2 sons are counting on you. Please do the right thing.

kotten

I spoke to a biologist & he said for a healthy herd there should be about 11 deer per sqare mile. 16 if it is in an agricultural area. NYS has about 47,564 sq miles of land. Not all of that is whitetail habitat. If you multiply NYS's sq miles by 16, there should be about 761,000 deer tops in NYS. The under 1 million mark isn't bad except the buck to doe ratio is out of whack. The state definatly has to do something to protect the bucks while decreasing the doe population.

SteveBNy

Phade - you are right. We need to exchange opinions and not attack each other. My intent was to critisize the opinion not the man. I apologize for the way it was recieved. I don't believe calling someone ignorant is a very positive way to get thinks back on track - however, I have been called worse.

I passionately believe that the mz in Oct will change bowhunting in a very negative manner. It would be different if it was for primitive, iron sited mz. But it is not.

The modern inline is for the most part a much more effective weapon than the shotgun - single shot being it's only limitation. In my area of Cayuga county and with people I know in Cortland and Onondaga counties, its use as the primary gun for regular season is gowing at an incredible rate. I use an Omega for that very reason.

Once the early season starts it use will grow at an even greater rate. I know groups now that have enough people that they do big drives during late mz. It will become more and more common in the Oct mz. I see no way that it won't effect and change bowwhunting.
All to sell a more tags and whack the herd harder in all areas. By the time its real impact is felt and understood, it will be too late.

I do not know J-bow, but like him, bowhunting is a year round passion for me. Something like idea of the mid Oct mz which will cut the season by 60 % to allow a rifle an early season does fire me up! They are many ways to give mz more opportunities without gutting the bow season. I too think some of the NYB alterate's are not the solution either. I believe either extending the late season or allowing use of the mz tag for all or part of the regular season would be fair for all. After all, the modern inline is just another gun - why not use in in the gun season rather than bow.

By the way, while I am a member of the NYB, I have no leadership position - I am an alternate rep to the Cayuga County Federation of Sportsman's Club. Any opinion or position I take here are mine and mine alone - especially the ignorant ones

Steve

SteveBNy

maytom - see my post to Phade. We need to debate opinions and not be personal.
Take care.
Steve

Phade

I was not calling you a name, but merely based upon the actions you two took. I too am ignorant at times, hence why I have stated several times in this thread, I am not casting stones.

Thank you for getting back on track.

Have you heard anything about the DEC's take on lower deer numbers? I am really interested to see if they are going to pursue a doe only week.

SteveBNy

One more

Phade - I hope you are right about the DEC being able to realize that many many areas of the state seem to have a reduced herd and the harvest is down considerbly. For the most part ,in my area, everyone who is not hunting large tracts of privately managed land are reporting far fewer sightings and harvests. 3 different processors are saying their business is off as much as 40%.

If you are right about the DEC, than I will have wasted all this outrage.

steve

Phade

Kotten,

Please take this as being constructive criticism, your efforts will be much more effective.

You need to cut out the size of your letter. Having experience in the political world, I can tell you that your letter may never get read. This is simply due to the length. The most effective letter you can present is a 1 page letter straight to the point. Reason being that it allows those who do read it to completely read your views. 9 out of 10 times a letter that is too long, or otherwise is flagrent in some way (attacking, or poor language) gets disregarded.

I have yet to read your letter and will respond after I can read it all. But keep at it, your efforts will help shape how our future hunting sesons go.

Phade

Ok here we go:

First cut the fat on the stories a bit, and your letter will be great.

Your points:
#1. I am against antler restrictions. I like QDM, but it is not for everyone. AR has little value to overall herd health in my opinion, although many studies may dispute that. I believe AR will grow larger bucks, but that is not a priority for the DEC. They want a healthy, stable herd. I also disagree with AR because the first time my kid gets into the field, or my grandfather gets into a blind a small buck may just be the best harvest of their lives. I believe Charles Alscheimer (sp?) is aginst AR as well for reasons similar. He is a firm believer in QDM, but reconizes the value of getting the fires going for a young or new hunter, and the personal value of an elder hunter who may have shot his last deer (a small buck).

It will not bring in enough money from trophy hunters. First of all, we have expensive tags comparatively to other states, so we do generate a good amount of revenue from that. But the killer is the number of hunters in this state, we are in the top 5, and possibly in the top three of the country numbers wise. I think Texas, PA, and maybe Alabama have more hunters, and then us. So generating more hunters may be a poor avenue to explore. Plus the fact that our deer kill is ratioed pretty well, despite the need for more harvesting in certain areas (hence DMP's).

#2.
Agree 99%. Do not like the out of state rule. Simply put, No Earn-A-Buck is the best way to go.

#3.
I like your thoughts on the younger hunters, in fact I would go one step further. I would say AGE 12!!!!!!!!!! That is right. Several southern state have this as their age for big game hunting with a gun. All the studies point this to be safe, and not dangerous in large. I am a product of that in fact. I lived in VA and began deer hunting with a shotgun at age 12, and it really does capture kids at that age, I saw it first hand.

However, your choice in age discrimination regarding the ability to kill ANY deer, even in AR is illegal. Age discrimination is against the law. A new hunter at an age of 23 would not be able to kill his first deer in similar fashion. Although NYS allows relief in cost for elder hunters (65), which is legal based upon cost of living standards (read: retired...meaning fixed income), it cannot promote age discrimination, or it would be sued. I wish we could do something like this to get youngsters involved, but it is a social deviance. So yes let's lower the age for hunters, that is most definitly agreed.

#4.
Interesting idea. It definitly needs more investigation. However, we are not the norm as far as hunting seasons go. The most common season amongst states is Bow/MZ/Gun, and a possible late season. Your remark about spooking deer is incorrect about its effect on numbers. Remember, the DEC's first goal is numbers...thats it....numbers, not quality of the hunt, that is secondary. Although it is important, the DEC will much rather prefer numbers over quality. I will not input my ideas on what think the season should be since I have already done so in the thread, and because we as hunters have shown we cannot agree in large in NYS on this. This premise scares me about our future. But good of you to promote what you believe, that is what we need to begin a process of a consensus,

#5
I firmly understand the practicality of a Saturday opener. However, I still am against it simply based on tradition. I remember getting the "get out of jail free card" every Monday opener when I was in High School, and the memories of an early breakfast with friends and families. To me a Saturday breaks that tradition, but I reconize the impact it could have on a positive note. I am just a stickler for tradition I guess There are not many left.
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Overall, a well devised view. Trim it down, and send her off. Good job.

Phade

You will find that biologists can have different opinions, that is similar to all of the sciences. However, the 1 million mark is the ideal number from what I understand. The best years of hunting were the prior several seasons. This was when the populations were between 1-1.2 million deer in NYS. I mean best not only in numbers, but also quality of deer (look at state record entries). You said it yourself, this year has been poor hunting wise. The state population was estimated at below 1 million this year by the DEC. I suspect there is a relation to why you and many others had poor seasons.

CattNY

Try this on for side you "primitive" hunters. I am in favor of not allowing muzzleloaders in Oct if you don't use treestands or compound bows. Be real hunters, hunt from the ground and use recurves or longbows.