deaddeer

You just don't get it, do you ? It is not about whether I get a buck or not. Due to Alt and AR I am no longer a buck hunter, I am simply a deer hunter. If a legal buck comes along I'll shoot it, but I am not going to go out of my way to harvest a buck. Any legal deer worth butchering is good enough for me.

You may consider the harvest of adult buck as rare ,since you can choose to define rare anywhere you want, but it doesn't change the fact that increased anterless harvests decrease the adult buck harvest. You should also note that when that stat was published, 80% of the preseason buck were harvested before the anterless season and there was no late ML/archery season. Now,due to AR, there will be more buck that survive that could be harvested as antlerless deer.

So Alt's plan has produced lower buck harvests because we are harvesting higher percentage of our males as BB , more adult buck are being harvested as anterless deer, fewer BB are being born due to shooting more adult doe and at the same time AR only increased the numberof 8+ pt. buck by 4,000,while reducing the buck harvest by 61,000.

chickory

like quite a few others, they don't want to admit they fell for the hype.

Its kinda hard for them to admit they got punk'd.

livbucks

You don't think you are a buck hunter but you are. You take your racks in the form of premie buttons or empty pedicels. And your argument about no bucks left IS hogwash, whether a buck is taken as an antlerless deer or an antlered is irrelevant. It is still a buck and you guys that complain about not being able to get a buck end up shooting three or four a year in the form of an antlerless. Well there you go, you got your bucks. You don't have an antler fetish, do you? You are just "deer" hunters after all, not "buck" hunters anymore, right? "It's Gary Alts fault I shot four bucks this year, not mine, I couldn't help myself, honest, he made me do it"

That is the shortcoming in the plan. Guys that would fill their half dozen bonus tags with BB or empty pedicels today out of spite and selfishness and blame the plan for their loss of opportunities tomorrow. That is the problem today, some can explain and rationalize things on paper, and add facts and figures, but they have no real concept of how things work where the boot meets the mud. They have no realization of the consequences of their selfish acts. All I can say is shoot away, you reap what you sow. We practice the pure form of the plan where we hunt, and all the promised rewards are now being bestowed. We are a happy group.

Bob1961

one very easy way to tell if it's a BB or a doe is that doe have a hump on the top of there heads where as a buck does not....even at a 100 yds you can see this hump just above the eyes of the doe where as a bucks head will be flat..............................bob

deaddeer

Now you are just expressing your frustration that you can't formulate a logical defense to the points I have been making. Of course I realize I am harvesting male deer when I harvest a BB or anterless adult male and I have dememostarted quite conclusively that hunters will be harvesting a higher percentage of our male deer as anterless as herd reduction continues. It is a simple fact of life when you are reducing the herd and you can blame the hunters or blame Alt, but the end result will be the same.

Harvesting BB is not a selfish act as you claim. It is simply assigning a higher priorty to herd reduction than harvesting a buck. If every hunter passed on all fawns in order to save BB , anterless harvests would drop drmatically , more areas would be overpopulate and overbrowsed and Alt's plan would be a total failure. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT!!!!

PA-BOW-MAN

HR sux, its ruining the north central counties of PA. The hunting here is horrible now and I may need to start hunting NY if I want to see anything. I have killed a BB before and no I will not do it again. I probably wont be shooting a doe either, I plan to buy up as many tags as I can for this area, dmap,flintlock, etc.etc. and just hold on to them, my wife will also be buying a license now, should save a couple deer a year that way. ALT needs kicked out of this state.

chickory

Whaaaaaat...?? Not everyone likes herd reduction and wannabe's??

Go figure.

Not busting on you pa bowman, I'm just having a little fun at the expense of the Jr Alties. Up till now it has been theory and wishfull thinking. Fluff and rhetoric. But now the rubber is hitting the road and as predicted not everyone likes the smaller herd and the less opportunity.

If you think its depressing now, wait till after rifle season.

Herd reductions with extra BB dead biting the dust......coming to a woods near you...

livbucks

No , it is you who complains, I am a happy hunter, remember? You dutifully whack any deer that comes along without regard for the future and then complain about falling buck harvests. I have never complained about falling buck harvests. If the herd is increasing, why all the bellyaching from you guys. If you have private property nearby that harbors all the smart deer and all you are left with is dumb buttons, sorry.
Seems like something you gotta deal with and not Gary Alts fault. I still don't get you guys, do you think HR is necessary? I still can't tell either way what you want. By the way, harvesting buttons IS a selfish act IF you are going to complain later about no opportunities to harvest a buck.

livbucks

Now there is an expressed opinion I can respect. The guy thinks deer opportunities are down, he does not like it and yet he is willing to do what he thinks is best for his situation. He will lay off does and buttons because he knows that doing so will repair the damage done in his specific area. If that were DD or Chick saying this, they would respond by filling ALL their tags and bonus's with BB and even bucks that shed, out of spite and selfishness. In reading his report though, I must add that many posts reflect quite the opposite findings in the NC region. Deer density varies across the landscape and if your area is down, don't overharvest your future, do what is best for your specific situation. Shooting any deer that is left in your neck of the woods does not offset an overdensity 30 miles away. You are only shooting yourself in the foot.

chickory

Sorry, but your clumsy bash doesn't fly.... if your going to bash then at least have it make sense.

You complain because we are following the plan, which is to reduce the herd everywhere. Do you have any directions from the grand tall wizard Dr. Alt to harvest here, but no there? No

Do you have maps of population densities to direct the hunters to high populations? no. Matter of fact dmap areas are directing hunters directly to low deer populations according to Merlin Benner of DCNR.

You complain and complain, but we are just doing as the good Dr. asked. Apparently now you are the one who does not believe in Dr. Alts deer management, since you are saying there are areas that do not need reductions. Yet Dr. Alt says ALL areas are overpopulated and we need a heavy doe harvest this season to "balance the herd with its habitat".

When exactly did you walk away from the deer plan? Not that you are the only one to do so, a lot of hunters do not believe in it. But was it when you found out the states deer density goals were obscene? Or when you realized that it was not producing what it promised?

Big wmu's, big allotments = big antlerless harvest. And with that big antlerless harvest go a percentage of BB and adult bucks that lost thier antlers.... no wonder you no longer support the plan.