missedagain

What is really unfortunate is that most of you don't have any idea how bogus the PGC numbers are. The PGC does nothing scientific to get real numbers. Contrary to their formula spiel they do not check processors to the extent necessary [if at all] to get supporting information to come up with kill figures. They do not have the field data, but the all-knowing Alt knows, he absolutely knows, that we must reduce the deer statewide.

The October gun barrage is necessary to lessen the doe numbers so that because of the unbalanced herd there isn't the late breeding problem. His fawn study last year proved that late breeding is not a problem. READ THE RESULTS ON THE PGC WEBSITE YOURSELF. But you want to know whose fault it is that there is an unbalanced herd? It's your's, Mr. and Mrs. Bowhunting Person, because you didn't shoot the does. That is just plain hoey. And besides, the archery season was never, ever thought of as a deer management arm. Rifles in the gun season (read: doe season) was the method.

All you people who believe the PGC and their bogus figures have nothing in common with the pursuit of truth. My hat is off to the PGC. They have many of you not seeing deer and admitting that you're blind, stupid or worse. It is really a shame.

Ledgen LS

BT you have once again lost me with your logic/DBL talk. 1st you say no Oct gun doe season, latter you say gun doe is the means to lower deer numbers . Then you add to that by saying bring less does into the rut so only the dominate bucks will breed.
I guess what I don't understand is how are we going to have lower doe numbers coming into the rut without the fall gun season, which Alt has scraped.And what says all these bucks that are going to get to be grownups are going to vow of celebitcy till then? How are you going to stop them from breeding? and PPPPPlease don't tell me the boss buck will take care of that matter. Cause in the real world that just don't happen. The boss gets with 1 hot doe and sticks to her like glue till she's over it. All the while Jr. is sowing his seeds with the other hot babes.
And you have every right to be proud of your boy. Would think less of you for not. but if he's such a holy terror on deer, it only seems logical that he'd want to try something new, like a crossbow.

BTBowhunter

Maybe I missed something, what Altaholic among us has complained about not seeing enough deer. Please name just one?

mhogan

I just read over a six page memo by a PGC biologist on how they come up with some of their numbers. We really have no idea how complex their models and formulas are. Of course we don't have degrees in wildlife biology either.

445 supermag

Boy it is getting a bit rough here. Well Frank asked a question, and since he is happy now ( Well why wouldn't he be New house new wife new bow and new truck life is good my friend) I will give my opinions. One make or change the tags to buck and doe so If you shoot a button your done no buck tag left. Even though If you shoot at a doe and its a button buck you must use you doe tag. It still leaves a racked buck in the woods.

Second thing is to make bow season for deer in PA start sept 1 st or close and make the archers take a doe before they can take a buck. This way archers can have a couple weeks before other weapons come on the sceen.

I also think for a couple years they should impliment deer checking stations so they can get an accurate number on things. Well I hope this didn't start something as this is only an opinion.

Brian

PABowhntr

I will take a stab at this one. Archers need more time in the woods so that they can be more effective in reducing deer numbers.

It takes more time to get a deer within range of a bow when compared with a rifle/muzzleloader, etc.....

Now, as for muzzleloader hunters....I would have no problem with a longer overlap with the regular archery season. Let the Muzzleloaders have the last two or three weeks of the regular archery season as an overlap........you won't hear an argument from me....


...just as long as bowhunters have more time, undisturbed, in the field. Fewer people and less overall disturbance are what is necessary for archery to be used as an effective deer management tool.

As for the crossbow...I have stated my feelings on it several times before....but I have one question. What happened in the last few weeks that everyone is so sure that it is going to be legalized in early archery, or in a separate early crossbow season, next year? I get the feeling that everyone "knows" that it is going to happen, but nobody has stated why they know.

RLong

Once again....it is stated that "we offer no solutions". BS! We have stated here MANY MANY times alternatives, and solutions that can and would do much the same or better. But it didn't come from a person with a "doctorate".....please forgive me Mark. I've gone over those formulas too.....nothing secret there....nothing hard to understand....BUT....there are quite a few ASSUMPTIONS within them. Ahhhhh.....but the science of it all is much to great for us common folk to grasp. Horse patoochie!

....."If you still can't understand why it is better for the health of any species to let only the best individuals breed there is no hope you will ever understand any part of whats going on here.".....

And just where is that going to happen? We are trying now to put in place a system that shoots the "best of the breed" and allows the "rest" to breed the population. Antler restrictions will save some junior buck....but along with it will also provide a haven for "poor genetic" buck as well. I suppose Alt will just "tell" them not to breed any of his doe? While all along their numbers will grow. Get it right. AR will protect smaller buck. IT WILL NOT ensure that the "best" do the breeding. Not even close. Nor does reducing the doe numbers. But....I guess I am just hopeless and will never comprehend.

sigh...<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

BTBowhunter

Brian, Frank,
Right on! Archers represent about 1/3 of Pa hunters. Until we account for 1/3 of the deer kill, our season is not too long. Anyone who envys our extra time in the woods has the option of grabbing a bow and joining us. As for assuming crossbows are inevitable, I personally haven't heard anything new. Still don't want em classified as a bow. Keep track of them seperately and treat them as a seperate weapon. We don't really know what effect they'll have. Maybe start by making them another choice in the early Muzzle/jr-sr doe season. I would rather see them in archery than have the rifles out there in October. Since I support an early doe kill, maybe the crossbow could be an effective alternative to rifles for that purpose. One things for sure, none of us is going to love every change that will take place in the next few years.

buckhunter3

I am waiting to go to Gary Alt's metting in Feb,in my area.As a hunter I believe I have every right to ask even a deer biologist some Questions on where the deer herd is going and why.I may not have a degree but having hunted 40yrs I do believe I know my area alot better then Gary Alt.I just don't understand the reasoning that all these doe are not getting bred as Alt states yet are deer population is way out of control.I have not at least in my area after the season went out and saw all kinds of deer dead because of starvation because they where born too late in the season.I just don't buy the theory that alot of doe do not get breed period if so we would have a population problem in our deer herd.I do believe the smaller bucks do breed alot of doe while the big bucks chase one hot doe as Ledgen stated.
I hate to say this but that is how mother nature works.I have not heard as much fighting between hunters as I have seen since Gary Alt proposed bigger bucks.I have seen some big bucks taken this year on this forum and in my area and not all where shot this season so next year there will be some big bucks left.I just don't understand why do you want to change a deer herd in Pa where hunters from Ohio and Ny flock to every year because of the number of deer seen and yet say not enough doe are being breed or not enough big bucks around.What happened to the if I get a buck I will be thrilled to death if not I will try for a doe and if there is enough all the more chance to get one.I myself just like old fashion deer hunting I don't need a trophy buck behind every tree to get fired up for deer season.This is just my opinion as a Pa deer hunter.

PABowhntr

Terry,

That would be fine with me. I have no problem hunting strictly for does over a longer season. It isn't about a buck for me.

Nor does the idea of denser foliage really apply when it comes to archery. The denser the better. A twenty yard shot is the norm in bowhunting season. And since there are less hunters during bow season.....

The idea of putting it in November/December wouldn't fly though for two reasons that I can think of immediately. One, that is when the rifle seasons are. And two, if you place archery after rifle then less deer will be harvested during that archery season because the deer will already be spooked and there will be much less of them.

September 1st is a viable option that should be instituted.... And again, I have nothing against more time in the field for other hunter groups....give the muzzleloader guys, crossbow guys and rifle guys extended seasons as well.

Ofcourse, we need to keep all of them within reason since the herd can only support so much hunting per deer management unit.

Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/08/2002 13:57:24