RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Sept 1st is very do-able.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Hey Ralph, could we have found some common ground? sept 1 is a great idea but maybe it would be even better if that was either doe only or maybe an "earn a buck" early season. (can't shoot a buck till Oct 1 or till you turn in a doe AT A CHECK STATION, whichever comes first) Check stations arent that hard to implement. In WVA for instance, many convenience stores in deer country are check stations. They do it to draw people to the store, not because they get a big fee from the Game and fish people.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

<font color=red>FINALLY, YOU GUYS ARE STARTING TO AGREE ON SOMETHINGS</font id=red> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
P.S. Only Chuck Adams can sit at home and see deer so get into the woods. =;^)

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

make sure you know what you are agreeing to. sept 1st opener for any weapon not just archery.But MZ,rifle,archery,crossbow as well; and for doe only. and only in deer troubled areas. Not statewide and not without smaller units. OR you can bet old Alt will have the current county anterless guidelines if he's given a chance.
Then oct-nov crossbow and regular archery combined for a buck with a canceled doe tag, in damaged areas. Rest of state buck only. A buck& doe gun season only in troubled areas with buck only in units with low deer numbers already.
As long as we're all dreaming why not throw in a biologist that knows something about deer,and listens to the hunters ,too?

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Ever walked in the woods in early Sept? Talk about wondering where all the deer are, you wouldn't be able to see 50 yards in front of you,not to mention the noise, the the next year you'd be crying &quot;see I told you all the Deer were killed off&quot; What about hunting accident for an earlier season? Can't see whats beyond 50 yards could cause more accidents. Just a thought.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Once again it seems that the only thing Mr Ledgen/Lochorns is committed to is anything to keep us at odds with one another Did anyone else here think they were agreeing on any weapon starting sept 1? Lets take it from the top. First, if we are to kill more does (some may disagree with that, but it seems that the guys in power want it that way and I happen to agree) it's only fair that we should ALL have more expanded hunting oportunities. It should happen while we work towards smaller DMU's and a more credible count so that anyone concerned about accurate numbers has an opportunity to scrutinize them more than they can now. Second, I think that most reasonable hunters understand that it would be fair to let the guys with the most restrictive yet non disruptive weapons go first leading up to the most effective/disruptive weapons. (start with spears and end with machine guns LOL) Seriously, I prefer the compound bow, I wouldn't mind the recurve /longbow guys having a week or so before me because they are least likely to disrupt or negatively affect the deer for the rest of us. Follow them with all compound bows. Then the ML's and/or crossbow guys and end with the rifles. I'm beginning to think we all would be able to be more agreeable here without one spoiler continually stirring things up and twisting whats been said. One things is for certain. We obviously have a group, with the exception of one and maybe an alias or two, that cares very deeply about these issues. When people care deeply about something it's hard not to get frustrated and maybe occasionally step on one another in the process. To those I've inadvertently stepped on I apologize.It's only cause I care as much as you do. To those whom I feel stepped on me and others, I respect your right to express your views even if I may not agree.I know you care too... On the other hand,I just wonder how a clever PETA mole might behave on a forum like this?!?!

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

I believe I said expand opportunities for ALL hunters. We are all in this together and if more deer need to be killed, then we should all gain opportunities. Not just any one group.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

I am in full agreement for a Set 1st ARCHERY SEASON. Not in any way shape or form for an &quot;any weapon&quot; early season. Sorry. I see no reason why the archery season shouldn't be Sept 1st-Feb 1st. No biological reason either.

That DOES NOT include Xbows by the way.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

I don't see a real need for check stations to be honest. I think requiring a &quot;report card reciept&quot;, filled or not, to purchase your next years license. It would cost the mailing and processing of the reciepts. Much cheaper, and incentive to comply.

I think each tag should be bought with a stamp personally. It should include a buck and a doe tag. And the doe first rule could be applied in those &quot;smaller and necessary&quot; areas only.

Ralph

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Hi Ralph,
Agreed about the tags. The main reason O think check stations ought to be tried is that the PGC has done an abysmal job of gaining credibility with their numbers. Whether their numbers are accurate or not, there are obviously a number of hunters out there who don't trust them. I just think the check station idea might put that problem to bed. WVA checks every deer abd I'm pretty sure that they don't pay the check stations more much more than that postage free card we now have costs the PGC. If not check stations, maybe your idea would be ok but maybe more vigorous enforcement of the rule is needed too. In all my years I know of one guy fined for not reporting his deer. (Deputy found the number part of his tag that had ripped off in the woods on a rainy day and came to his house just itchin to write a ticket and that was the only ticket he could come up with.
BTW, I don.t really want crossbows either but would rather see them than rifles in early archery season! Heck, put em in with the smoke poles and call it a primitive weapon season!

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Terry, once again you have a short term memory problem. I said a number of times that I support an erly doe kill. I also said I would go along with an early rifle season to do that but, of course, I can think of ways I'd rather see it done. Again I'll say that archers are 1/3 of our ranks but don't yet account for nearly 1/3 of the kill. I believe you've claimed to be a bowhunter. If you're not and you're jealous of the time we get in the woods go get yourself a bow and take advantage of it. At 80+ I can't imagine a doctor who wouldn't sign off on a crossbow permit for you if you can't manage a bow anymore. besides, your previous posts indicated that you don't want a early kill off. Now you say that we need a Sept 1 rifle season to do just that? Maybe you said that under one of your alias's and forgot we know who that was. Once again, it seems controvesy is the only thing you really beieve in. Cotroversy among hunters IS good for the PETAfiles.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

As a matter of fact he uses my new crossbow in Allegheny county in slug gun season. (Where its now legal and the only season where I personally feel it belongs)

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

I am going to repost my last two posts because it seems like we haven't gone anywhere since then....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I will take a stab at this one. Archers need more time in the woods so that they can be more effective in reducing deer numbers.

It takes more time to get a deer within range of a bow when compared with a rifle/muzzleloader, etc.....

Now, as for muzzleloader hunters....I would have no problem with a longer overlap with the regular archery season. Let the Muzzleloaders have the last two or three weeks of the regular archery season as an overlap........you won't hear an argument from me....


...just as long as bowhunters have more time, undisturbed, in the field. Fewer people and less overall disturbance are what is necessary for archery to be used as an effective deer management tool.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> That would be fine with me. I have no problem hunting strictly for does over a longer season. It isn't about a buck for me.

Nor does the idea of denser foliage really apply when it comes to archery. The denser the better. A twenty yard shot is the norm in bowhunting season. And since there are less hunters during bow season.....

The idea of putting it in November/December wouldn't fly though for two reasons that I can think of immediately. One, that is when the rifle seasons are. And two, if you place archery after rifle then less deer will be harvested during that archery season because the deer will already be spooked and there will be much less of them.

September 1st is a viable option that should be instituted.... And again, I have nothing against more time in the field for other hunter groups....give the muzzleloader guys, crossbow guys and rifle guys extended seasons as well.

Ofcourse, we need to keep all of them within reason since the herd can only support so much hunting per deer management unit.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

And I especially like BTBowhunter's comments.....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>that it would be fair to let the guys with the most restrictive yet non disruptive weapons go first leading up to the most effective/disruptive weapons. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

...as well as Rlong's comments....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I am in full agreement for a Set 1st ARCHERY SEASON. Not in any way shape or form for an &quot;any weapon&quot; early season. Sorry. I see no reason why the archery season shouldn't be Sept 1st-Feb 1st. No biological reason either.......

....And the doe first rule could be applied in those &quot;smaller and necessary&quot; areas only.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Seems to me that Frank addressed a longer ML season in his quote. As for the rifle guys... we now have a hole in the seasons during the week that used to be for doe season. No solution is perfect for all. We all need to be open minded as Pa's new deer management system evolves.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

HMMM....I guess I'm just glad that it's not a decision that'll be up to Terry.

Edited by - BTBOWHUNTER on 01/09/2002 11:49:40

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

You know what.....I hunt with a bow....and a rifle, and a ML, and a shotgun......and I STILL think Sept 1st - Feb 1st is a supportable season. I don't think the herd can truly sustain more than the current alloted time with rifles in the woods. At least be honest enough to admit that there is a difference.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

I must have missed something........obviously.

Now, Terry, you have to admit that proposing an &quot;all weapon&quot; season starting on September 1st is rather irrational for several reasons.

1) Say a bowhunter shoots a nice doe and she runs down the hill 60 yards to where a rifle hunter is sitting. The rifle hunter shoots the doe and puts it down. Obviously, it is the rifle hunters deer, but how fair is that to the bowhunter, or the crossbow hunter?

2) If you allow a extremely long, extended season for rifle hunters then the deer herd is definitely going to be devastated.

It isn't bias....just common sense.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Terry,

I apologize...I did read it but it didn't &quot;stick&quot; in my memory as well as the rest of your post. You are right...if they put a set limit on the number of doe to be taken then it would eliminate excessive doe kills.

But, if that scenario were the case then how would hunters know when the allotments were filled? What I mean is that say the allotment is for 2000 does for a specific area...and that allotment is filled at 8 am on such and such a day. How do the hunters that are still out hunting find out that the all the necessary does have been taken out of the area? Just curious.

Did you answer the one part of my last post regarding the situation involving the archer and the rifle hunter?

And just for the record...I do rifle hunt as well as bowhunt so either way I would still have more time in the woods.

...and I feel that the September 1st start for archery should be statewide, not just in the &quot;Southeast&quot; and &quot;Southwest&quot; parts of the state.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

How about this:
Sept 1 archery for doe only till Oct 1 or till a doe is turned in to a check station
Oct 7-14 a one week crossbow and ML season for doe only
Oct 14-21 rifle doe
Archery continues till Feb 1
buck season continues in it's normal time slot with antler restrictions where needed.
Late ML as it has always been.

Everyone who has a desire to hunt only one weapon still has more opportunity to hunt than they used to. Yes the archers gain the most days because they have far less impact on the herd per day hunted. All season should be open to adjustment if any one season accounts for a disproportionate kill (too high or too low) Make the 1 buck tag a male deer tag to protect the buttons and check every deer at check stations until it's proven to be not necessary.
Just my personal brain Phart, but it obviously isn't perfect. It might be a good start, however.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Frank; i have lived while in the service and hunted Alaska. so I'll use that state as an example of how quotas are filled. On the Kenai penninsula ( where I lived) each year a set number of Brown bear tags were set aside for excess bears. EVERY killed bear regardless of how it died..car,self protection,etc. was deducted from that number. If there were tags available at the seasons onset hunting was allowed. Each day the hunter or guide was responsible to listen to the radio watch local news etc. to see if the permits were filled. You had 24 hrs to report your kill. I filed mine by 2 way radio, within 2 hrs of harvesting my bear. it is that simple. In Pa a near identical plan could be established with implementing check stations. many public parks hold deer hunts nationwide. check in in the AM check out in the PM if you have a deer to report.
As far as the wounded deer you spoke of in an earlier post...I say what's the difference if 1 hunter carried a bow and wounded a deer and a gun hunter finished it off. Or if a gun hunter hits a deer and another gun hunter finishes it off? In both cases those guys are hunting too close to eachother anyway. I've killed someehere around 50 deer with my bow. I never had a leathal shot in a deer that it went more than 1500-200yds. most were dead in les than 50 yds. Besides the numbers in your senario would be small at best. Even I will except some margins in this deer management buisness.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Almost sorry I started this thread! As usual some people ( and you know who you are) must discredit everyones ideas, and get away from the original topic.





Edited by - fight4yourguns on 01/09/2002 20:30:35

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Terry.....be honest now. The number of hunters in Alaska is a drop in the bucket at any given time, for a particular species compared to PA's deer season. Alaska has many programs, quotas, and requirements, that could not be implemented in the vast majority of the lower 48.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

I just love being chastised after I have apologized....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I sincerely dreaded going on this forum this morning and reading this thread, but I just had to do it. I guess I am a glutton for punishment.

Terry,

That sounds like a reasonable idea (Alaska) and at worst the area might only go over the quota by a dozen deer or so. But Ralph brings up a good point....how would the significantly larger number of PA hunters in the significantly smaller area (PA) factor in to such a plan?

Second, there is a significant difference between an archer shooting a deer and having a rifle hunter shooting it before it has a chance to expire and the same scenario but with two rifle hunters.

A bow shot deer requires a loss of blood to die, so, obviously, it is going to take longer (and farther) for it to expire when compared to a rifle shot deer which, in most cases, dies more from shock than actual blood loss. And, if you think that my scenario represents two hunters sitting too close to one another then you are just going to love the pictures that I am going to take on Saturday....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I think BT's suggestions for seasons are reasonable.

Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/10/2002 06:22:34

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Terry......&quot;On the Kenai penninsula ( where I lived) each year a set number of Brown bear tags were set aside for excess bears. EVERY killed bear regardless of how it died..car,self protection,etc. was deducted from that number.&quot;......

I understand that. We should, and I believe do take all deer mortallity into the equation now (roadkill, crop damage, hunting, etc). We don't do it as accurately as it &quot;should&quot; be done IMO though. Our figures for the deer harvest alone is a WAG at best.

My remark was toward the concept you were eluding to of &quot;near-real-time&quot; reporting and adjusting of harvest numbers. In PA I think that would be an unrealistic goal. But do we need to addres the concept to begin with?.....sure.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

THE END