A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Should we expect a record buck harvest in PA. this year? I mean after all we have 2 full years of AR. under our belt and according to Alt and the PGC. our herd is getting larger every year, and the 2003 deer harvest was significantly lower last year due to ( what was it? oh yeh, thats it!) bad weather and a poor mast crop. If Alt's claims about the size of our herd and how many additional bucks we have carried over the past 2 seasons are true, I dont see how we cant demolish the previous highest buck harvest in a single hunting season!! What do you guys think? Pike

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I think a lot of it has to do with the weather. Will it be too hot, too cold, raining, windy, an ice storm knocks visibility down to 2 feet in the woods, crusty snow makes it too loud to walk, dense fog??? If the weather is good, there should be a good number of deer killed. I don't think it will beat any records, though.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Alt blamed the weather for the low buck harvest in 2003, but we harvested 86% of the 80 K buck that we carried over from 2002. If we could harvest 86% of the older smarter buck, why couldn't we harvest the noramal number of 1.5 buck? Could it be there were alot fewer 1.5 buck due to the harvest of 77K BB in 2002?

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Alt blamed the weather for the low buck harvest in 2003, but we harvested 86% of the 80 K buck that we carried over from 2002. If we could harvest 86% of the older smarter buck, why couldn't we harvest the noramal number of 1.5 buck? Could it be there were alot fewer 1.5 buck due to the harvest of 77K BB in 2002?

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Personally.....anyone thinking we are going to see more and more large racked bucks in PA is kidding themselves. Unless you have a large tract of private property to manage for just that, big bucks, I don't think you'll see the array of big bucks Alt is promising. For starters, there are simply too many hunters in this state. Look at it this way... if your figures are correct, and we harvested over 80% of the bucks carried from the previous year, we have 20% left. What do you think that 20% is mostly comprised of? Bucks that weren't legal from the year before. In most of the state, these bucks don't grow large racks overly fast. So, by the next year, they are mostly minimum legal bucks and get whacked by hunters because, of course, they are legal.

I'm not saying we arent' going to get a few more large racked bucks, but I just can't see us ever being an Illinois, Kansas type state the routinely produces Booners or even 150 class bucks for that matter.

Hope I'm wrong.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

IMO NO!
The changes in AR and the combining of the doe/buck season in many areas is designed to lessen the buck kill and increase the doe kill. Things are designed so that most people will shoot the first doe they see and go home. MANY people only hunt one day a year-opening day. I don't think you will see the buck harvest record being broken ever under the current system. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. What you will see is some gigantic bucks coming out of PA in the next few years, but not earth shattering harvest numbers.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

There is simply no reason to expect that to happen and here is why. The average buck saved due to AR will be smaller that the average pre-AR buck ,because the average 1.5 spke develops slower than the avg. 1.5 , 6 or 8 pt. Also, we are harvesting a much higher percentage of our 2.5 + buck due to AR ,so fewer will survive to become 3.5+ buck. We harvested 86% of the buck that were carried over from 2002 and most of the 2.5+ buck that survived were those that were not AR legal at 2.5. In addition, we are harvesting more of our buck as anterless deer,so fewer buck will survive to be protected by AR.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

That's alot of thinkin'!
One more twist....No more does.... No more bucks!
Sound plausible? All I know is the bucks have gotten steadily bigger in the last two years where I've seen them and I have a few wallhangers that I'm drooling over around this year. Never had that in any amount before, only that occasional monster that someone lucked out and stepped on in some elderly woman's overgrown backyard. I'm really pumped about my prospects for the first time in a while, from what I've seen.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Are you really saying that the bucks are getting bigger, or are you simply saying that there are more 2.5 + buck due to AR? Since the herd has not been reduced and the habitat has not changed, there really is no reason why 2.5 bucks would be any bigger than they were before AR.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Bucks in general that I see. Before AR I would hunt season after season and the best buck I would see might be a 2.5. In the last season I saw many that I would consider to be near mature. I'm not that good at inventorying and aging every deer in the woods. What you call mature and what I call mature is the question. A 3.5 year old buck is a sight to see in the PA woods and I personally would like to see a few more. I actually wouldn't shoot a 2.5 year old deer anyway, so if AR was supposed to supply only 2.5 bucks, I don't think it goes nearly far enough.
I have tagged enough 1.5 and 2.5 bucks that I let them walk now, that's just me though. I'm not intent on filling a tag, I want my tag intact when I get a shot op. at one of the ones I've been seeing lately.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Your post is a classic example of why Alt's plan has created such dissention among hunters from various areas of the state. You have experienced no herd reduction and are seeing more and bigger buck and are passing on 2.5 buck.

Now compare that to the experience of our group of six hunting in 5 C. Now don't take this as a complaint because I know I could hunt harder,hunt somewhere else ,buy land somewhere else or join a lease. However, no matter what our group does someone else has to hunt here to control the herd.

Personally,last year I did not see one antlered buck while hunting.archery, rifle and late ML season. Since the end of the season I have seen a total of 5 deer and no buck. I live where I hunt and maintain ATV trails , ditches and cut firewood on the property we hunt. I planted winter rye in 3 areas and I only saw deer feeding on it twice.

The group only saw one legal buck during early ML, rifle and late ML. We didn't see any buck that weren't AR legal and only one buck was killed in the .5 SM we hunt. We had shots at two mature doe and killed one. We had shots at seven fawns and killed six, but they were all BB.


So while Alt's plan is benefiting a small percentage of hunters in the 4 pt. zone where the herd is double and triple its OWDD goals , for the majority of the hunters it has made hunting harder and hasn't provided any benefits.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Last year , i saw alot more deer taken that were mounters , every buck i saw getting drug out of the mountains on opening day was a mounter , i didnt see quiet as many , but they were bigger , and the doe sightings were down alot , i only saw a few doe but they didnt offer shots i was comfortable with , so i think PA is coming along , but down here in 2B i have a few honey holes that we manage and are posted up , so i have all archery to take a nice buck!

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

You answered your own problem. You are not seeing any legal buck because you are shooting them all as BB. Maybe you are not the only ones in the area doing this also. If you are in a heavily hunted area that gets alot of doe hunting, a huge percentage of your bucks are being killed as BB. It's no wonder! That is where my recommendation for the closer tracking of the BB kill would come in. We have got to do something more about the BB kill. If we are good hunters then I'm sure we could all be a little more thorough at assessing the deer we have in our sights. Try to hold off on doe hunting your area for a few years. I know this flies in the face of what you believe in but sometimes you can't get tunnelvision on deer density numbers in the short term. You can always weed them out in the future when your buck numbers start to rebound. As hunters, we can do alot to manage the conditions on the particular areas we hunt regardless of the goals of the GC. We are out there doing it, so the decision to shoot or not is ultimately up to us as individuals.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Did you miss the part of my post where I said that during early ML , Rifle and late ML our group of six only had shooting at 2 adult doe? If we had passed on those fawns there would have been 6 additional OW deer in the area we hunted. We all still had bonus tags to use at the end of the season so waiting for a mature doe was not the anwser. My wife and I did that during archery and we never got a shot at a mature doe.


That simply is not true . The PGC has been trying to control the herds in SRA counties for 20 years with no success It is very hard to harvest mature doe in an areas with posted ground and a lot of safety zones. There is no reason to have AR in SRA counties except to produce larger racks for trophy hunters and that is not good deer management and it is terrible PR for the PGC.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I just don't get what you are trying to say.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I'm saying we would much rather have harvested mature doe, but we simply didn't have the opportunity. You can't shoot what you don't see ,so we shot what saw and they happened to be BB. They could just as easily been female fawns but they weren't. In rifle and late ML we don't have a chance to check for buttons ,we have a hard enough time just identifying a legal target and making a clean kill.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

What are you looking for in a deer hunting experience?
Do you want to shoot bucks?
Do you want to fill your freezer regardless of what sex it is?
You complain of high density and then complain about no shooting opportunities except at BB.
Like I said, I don't get what you are getting at.
Please explain what conditions you would like to see come about.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I think the fact that most of the fawns were BB is because you have a low density of bucks in your area come the rut. Like I said before if you hold of on shooting antlerless, thus sparing your BB, your numbers will come up. Deer have a way of producing what sex the herd lacks. I think your situation is a regionally specific problem, to tell you the truth.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

"If you cut the tree, you get no fruit"

Words to hunt by...

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I agree with livbucks...

If you want to see more buck in you area , dont shoot at yearlings period , this will allow u to have more doe , which will in turn become mature , and reproduce more buck , for some they say OH WELL U CANT TELL ITS A YEARLING! Yes u can , all you have to do is take 2 seconds and notice the small fat fuzzy face of the animal , and if there is a group of them , you can still tell by the facial features .... and if you cant , then you shouldnt take the hsot , that isnt positivley identifying your game... Im not harping , as you can do whatever you want on your hunting land , but on ours we jsut simply dont risk it , in the last 2 seaons we have taken only 2 BB 5 mature buck and 12 mature doe , the BB we took were both injured , one had a broken leg and the other a birth defect which was effecting eating habits..

It might not seem like it helps but letting all yearlings go does help. you will have doe to reproduce nd a constant flow of mature doe , as well as a constant flow of buck form the reproducing doe... on our property there r two deer that get shot , mature buck , and mature doe ... boh are plain as day when it comes to identification , and if you cant identify it by body or facial features , then you dont need to take the shot , you have plenty of time to go out and get another chance at a deer , jsut dont risk it on being greedy for meat in the freezer!

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Well said Livbucks;););)

Voluntarily passing on BB's, although optional is one thing we can all do to help the current plan succeed.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Deaddeer-

I have been reading your posts and just don't get it. I have been hunting 3C for the last 10 years and it amazes me how different 2 separate hunters experiences are within an hours drive of each other. The number of bucks my group saw last year is much greater than what we saw 5 years ago. You have a very slight point in regards to the fact that 1.5 year old bucks that grow extra points are being culled while their fork horned brothers get to live ... but you fail to point out some of the huge holes in that argument. First, it has only been 2 years! It would require decades to affect the herd genetic make-up in such a way as to reduce the trait to grow additional points as an immature buck. The reason for that is because when a fawn was born in the year and the quality of the food it eats affects antler growth as much as genetic potential.
Secondly .. the genetic quality of fawns being bred by even 2.5 year old's is an improvement over the old system. Plus, as bucks get older, and there will be more bucks because people have to legally pass them up, they do get wiser and more elusive. So you can't expect to see these more mature deer with the same ease you have been seeing spikes and forks.

Which leads me to my final point, and it may be the most obvious issue with some PA hunters.
Your problem is not with the deer herd .. it is with your hunting choices. Less than an hour from you there are areas that people see 20 to 40 deer a day. Why would you hunt an area that you did not see a single buck in an entire season? The PGC can't put deer in your yard for you to shoot. Maybe there was a better herd there years ago, but obviously you and your neighbors have affected change and removed all of your bucks. Instead of complaining about the management policies you should find a spot within an hours drive where guys like myself and others here go and help manage the growing deer herds with greater buck numbers. It sounds like your area could use a break....

and you may find yourself once again happy with the hunting quality in your home state.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

In case you didn't notice the goal for 5 C is 6 DPSM. If you believe in Alt's plan of balancing the herd with the habitat, then one has to shoot any legal deer when the oportunity presents itself in 5C. Sure I could go somehwere else where the hunting is easier ,but then who is going to control the herd where we use to hunt? Also , remember an overpopulation of buck causes more damage that an overpopulation of doe. They damage fruit trees ,Christmas trees and shrubs when they rub their anterlers ,doe don't.

BTW, protecting fawns and yearlings and harvesting adult doe instead , reduces breeding rates and recruitment.

.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

1. I was quite satisfied with the hunting we had before , when we had a reasonable chance of harvesting either an antlered buck or a doe.

2. I don't have to fill my freezer , but we do like venison and the sex really doesn't matter that much. Bucks just add a little more excitement to the hunt.

3. I do not complain about high deer density. I think the area we hunt can support the deer we have , but my neighbors disagree and we do have a fair number of road kills ,so the herd definitely has to be controled at or below it's current levels.

Remember , I am discussing these issues based on Alt's plans and his OWDD goals. I am simply pointing out the conflict between implementing AR while trying to reduce the herd by 50%. I am also pointing out the vast differences in the effects of Alt's plan , in various areas of the state.

My position is that AR should never have been implemented statewide when the herd was 50% above the goal OWDD. AR's should only be implemented in WMU's that are within 20% of their goal OWDD ,after 60% of the hunters vote to approve AR. Furthermore, the OWDD goals should be updated to include all of the habitat that the deer use to survive ,rather than just forested habitat. That would increase the OWDD goals to 21 or 22 DPSM instead of 13 DPSM and that would mean we would only have to reduce the herd statewide by 15% instead of 50%.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

The point is , there are going to be pockets of inconsistancy in any given management district. I think you are trying to dutifully carry out the plan on a pocket of land that is not representative of the conditions if it's district. Over every other hill you will find varying degrees of deer density. By killing every deer on your parcel you are not helping to control the DD on a parcel even 5 miles away. You could make your area devoid of deer for several years and still have overpopulation only a few miles away. Do what's best for your situation and don't overemphasize what is needed over the next hill, unless you want to walk over that hill and help shoot some of those deer, (that's an option). Does have small home ranges and doe fawns generally like to stay with their mothers or where they were born.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I think it is erroneous to make statements about how spike bucks will grow in comparison with other bucks or deer. The reason is that with AR, more does are shot, so there is more forage for the remaining deer, so that "spike" probably wouldn't be a spike, he'd be a 6 or 8 because he would have received better nutrition. They have done studies that suggest MOST spikes are that way due to overpopulation and consequent lack of nutrition, not due to genetic inferiority.

Making statements about spikes ASSUMES they will be a spike regardless of deer numbers and nutrition, which is flawed rationale...


I also just read an article in D&DH that stated that button buck mortality during doe season is not as large as people think, and the policy of shooting does is a GOOD overall policy for the health of the herd and having bigger bucks...

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

We are doing what is right for our situation. Farmers are complaining about crop damage, residents are complaining about damage to their gardens and roadkills are increasing. Simply put , the herd needs to be controled where we hunt and in every other woodlot in 5 C.


What you are telling us to do is ignore the experts, ignore the complaints from our neighbors and just manage the herd to produce more bucks. Personally I think that would be irresponsible.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Those statements are simply not true. Our herd continued to increase after AR was implemented so there was no additional food to improve rack size. The latest study show that the average spike will not catch up with the average 1.5 ,6 or 8 pt until they are 3.5 or 4.5. In Miss. where they have had statewide longer than any other state ,rack sizes decreased in the areas with the best habitat. We are harvesting the best buck in each age class and protecting the smallest, slower developing inferior buck, so the average buck in each age class above 1.5 will be smaller with AR than without.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

How can there be so many deer that all landowners are outraged, when the only deer harvested by anyone that you know of in the area were BB?
Do the deer hide in underground bunkers? If you are hunting around residential areas then you have to drive the deer out of their hiding places. That is why they reduced the safety zone for bowhunting to 50 yards. My Dad and I have always agreed that BBs are the dumbest deer in the woods. I just can't understand your position or statements based on all of my years of hunting PA deer.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

I guess you never had the pleasure of hunting deer where there is posted ground and a lot of houses that are owned by people from NY and NJ. The vast majority don't like hunting and don't want any hunters close to their property. Even when you do get permission it is almost impossible to get the deer to move in the direction of the standers since they'll will cut through peoples yards and stand in open fields where you can't get a safe shot and you can't approach them.

Just why do you think the population are out of control in 5C ,5B and many other WMU's? It certainly isn't due to the lack of anterless tags . It is because limited access makes deer in rural areas much harder to control by hunting than the deer in the NC county with much more publiu land.

What you may not realize is it is much harder to harvest a doe in 5 C than it is in 2G. For example, from 92-96 the PGC issued 14.5 anterless tags PFSM in Elk Co. and 48.9 tags PFSM in Northampton Co. In Elk we harvested 1 anterless deer for every 3 tags ,but in Northampton it was one anterless deer for every 5 tags issued.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Then the landowners need to make a choice then, don't they? Either they allow hunting (if only bowhunting, so be it) or shut up and live with the deer problem. See, that is the problem with alot of folks nowadays, they bitch and moan about something and then tie your hands when you try to do something about the situation. Everything must be "politically correct". Probably alot of "animal lovers" out in that area. It's funny how they don't want you to "murder bambi" but they scream and yell when they hit one with their car or lose all of their expensive shrubbery to a feast one night. I see more of your position now, I just don't think it applies to my area and I support AR in my case. I know it is easier said than done but you should wash your hands of your hunting area and devote your efforts in an area that is more hunter friendly. Seems like you are in a situation where it is damned if you do, damned if you don't. Good luck in finding a solution.

RE: A record Buck Harvest in PA. for 2004???
 

Thanks for at least acknowledging that you understand my position. By doing so you also acknowledge the very difficult postion that that the PGC faces. There are no easy answers.

That is not something I cannot and will not do because I live where I hunt and both my brother and I have gardens, fruit trees and Christmas trees. I have a responsibility as a hunter to control the herd where I live even if the hnting is not what I would like it to be. I wouldn't ask anyone else to hunt under these conditions so if we don't do it , I can't expect anyone else to do it.

I don't blame you for supporting AR's where you hunt. As long as the population remains stable you'll have great hunting. However , if herd reduction eventually succeeds in your area the quality of your hunting will decline as it has in 2 G.

Instead of fighting over AR ,we would accomplish a lot more if we could work together to get the PGC to update their OWDD goals to reflect the true carrying capacity of the habitat. If we could accomplish that, there would be no need to reduce the herd by 50% and there wouldn't be such a big diparity in the quality of hunting in various areas of the state.