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Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
this speaks for itself
....On winning 3 of the 5 well deserved national awards... "Through aggressive changes in their deer management program over the past few years, the Pa Game Commission now is considered among the most progressive state wildlife agencies in the nation regarding quality deer management, said Brian Murphy, QDMA executive director." "The agency has implemented statewide antler restrictions, liberalized doe harvest regulations, instituted concurrent deer seasons and more. Early results from this program are very encouraging and bode well for the future of the state's deer herds and deer hunters." "QDMA's Professional Deer Manager of the Year Award recognizes the professional biologist or manager who, in their position, has done the most to promote the principles and practices of quality deer management." "Dr. Alt was a hands-down winner for his efforts to promote quality deer management in one of the most difficult and occasionally hostile areas of the whitetail's range - Pennsylvania," Murphy said. "While Dr. Alt is recognized as a black bear expert and an award-winning photographer, his achievements in the whitetail arena over the past few years are perhaps his most significant. "Since being appointed as supervisor of the Game Commission's Deer Management Section in 1999, he led the effort to bring many changes to Pennsylvania's deer management program including concurrent deer seasons, fall muzzleloader and gun deer seasons, increased bag limits, and statewide antler point restrictions. Over the past few years alone, Dr. Alt has given more than 200 lectures across Pennsylvania, conducted scores of TV, newspaper and radio interviews and written a number of articles." QDMA Northeast Regional Director Kip Adams offered his congratulations to the Game Commission and Dr. Alt for being selected for these two awards. "As a Pennsylvania resident, I'd like to congratulate the Game Commission on this prestigious award," Adams said. "As a friend and fellow deer biologist, I'm very proud that Dr. Alt was selected as the first-ever professional of the year. "Although the agency and Dr. Alt provided the framework, Pennsylvania's deer hunters also deserve recognition since they are the ones that provided the 'on the ground' work." So who do we believe?? The best biologists in the country like Kroll and Dr Woods, Alt, deer researchers, etc. +PGC + now QDMA.. ...or three or four antis on this board? |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
QDMA Northeast Regional Director Kip Adams offered his congratulations to the Game Commission and Dr. Alt for being selected for these two awards. "As a Pennsylvania resident, I'd like to congratulate the Game Commission on this prestigious award," Adams said. "As a friend and fellow deer biologist, I'm very proud that Dr. Alt was selected as the first-ever professional of the year. This is a totally meaningless award since Kip Adams had no clue what the OWDD goals were for the state .He was speechless when I showed him the goals at the Lehigh Valley Sports Expo,where Alt admitted the OWDD goals were wrong. Managing the herd at OWDD's that are lower than 50% below the true carrying capacity is contrary to the principles of QDM and would get any private deer manager fired.. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Guess it's a good thing he doesn't work for you, eh?:D
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Interesting quotes. Which website did you get them from?
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
He is working for me and for all hunters of PA. But, unfortunately what he has done is to reduce buck harvests to pre -1984 levels in just 2 years. It is hard to belive one man could do so much harm in that short a time period.
Here is a quote from John Ozoga about AR in DMU 118 in Mich. Antler Restrictions None of us like to see mandated antler restrictions. Currently, however, there seems no other way to save young bucks from harvest so that more of them reach maturity. In time, as the buck population becomes more structured, and hunters become more experienced, voluntary compliance is more likely. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Deadeer it 's here deal with it........
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Gosh DD, I bow before your expertise on the subject. You just don't get it do you big guy. Meaningless national awards. Cudos from other known and reknowned biologists. Meaningless. Your half arsed interpretation of Data, "presentation of "facts" (cough, cough) the truth, the light, and the way!!! Sounds like a plan to me. Cripes now I do believe you Mr. Slinsky... . Gosh, I'd love to here your advice on financial matters and child raising. You have so much to give.
I don't think you could give an unbiased, strictly fact based (without interpretation or misrepresentation or outright decietful twisting) presentation of PA deer management issues if your were assured of a million bucks for doing so. Your quilty of what you accuse Mr. Alt of doing hands down. I bet your house has no mirrors in it! :eek:Juniorpc |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
LIMITING ANTLER TAGS WOULD NNNEEVVVEEERR HAVE FLIED KNUCKLES!!! GOSH, your something!!! Man you must love monday mornings and the ability to throw the football around like you do without any rush......... What we should have done is limit the antler tags.. yeah, allow folks to not have the ability to harvest a buck. While I'm in favor of that, and yes It has a bunch of merit... It won't fly right now and surely wouldn't have in any of the years since Dr. Alt took over. Yeah gotta stay grounded in a bit of reality, just once, ok?!. AND if he had done that you'd be killing him for it - WITHOUT A DOUBT!!! Woah fella. Juniorpc.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Name one reknowed biologists that manages their herd at 13 DPSM. You can't do it ,because there is no biologist other than those in the PGC who would attempt something so silly.
Alt also got an award from the Safari Club and they praised him for all the big racks produced by AR,even though none of the buck harvested in 2002 were the product of AR. The big buck guys in the QDM and Sarfari Club love Alt because they don't understand his OWDD goals or the true results from the antler buck study. They were all hynotized by those big racks Alt was waving during his lecture series. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Name one state that has the browse line we do. We have more fern than any other two or three states combined. Sure you don't want to hunt outta state? Just want you happy is all. Juniorpc.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
It's not just the size of the racks that's important, it's the age of the deer, just sound management to get the harvest away from what it has been, that's all. Your right- Safari club international isn't concerned with conservation or biology. I would think with the issues Africa has with habititat,poaching, extinction, etc they would have a biologist or two on staff or an idea of sound biological practices. Unlike you I could be wrong! QDMA is all about the nuts and bolts behind producing larger racks- better habitat, sound managment of the deer and the habitat, perpetuation of good habitat and good hunting. LARGE racks are just the byproduct. Please give these groups more credit. Juniorpc.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
I give QDM credit for what it can accomplish on private leases and clubs, where the members all have the same goals and they can control all aspects of the plan. In PA we have 1M hunters with widely divergent goals and objectives . Just look at last years anterless harvest when we harvested 68,1K BB ,but only 58.7K female fawns. AR has no chance of succeeding when we harvest such a high percentage of our males before they even have a chance to be saved by AR.
Furthermore, the state has no plans to improve the habitat ,since they are more concerned about the revenue from saw timber. No matter how many doe we kill ,pole timber will only support 5 DPSM , for the 40-60 years it remains in the pole timber stage. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
DD, something we somewhat agree upon. I heard thunder!! QDM is effective with private lands and clubs. Those folks worry about thier neighbors and attempt to get them on board sometimes forming 7,8,9 landowner collectives with the same goals. On public land it's different for sure, but more were in favor of AR than not and deer aren't being killed and left in the woods and folks are generally abiding by them. I think as more poeple get educated the percentage of button bucks will drop. I do agree folks need to be more responsible.
Like it or not, pole timber needs to be a part of PGC land, DCNR land, etc and money is an issue for any agency. Gas leases, timber sales, etc make up a part of the revenue that allows the PGC to operate. Pole timber needs to be their, not only for revenue, but for naturalized succession as well. We can argue back and forth about what percentage should be pole timber, but the bottom line is that Pole timber is necessary. Juniorpc. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Pole timber is absolutely necessary.However,proper rotation of timber keeps too much of it from being in the pole stage too long.Poor forestry practices are just as much to blame as too many deer.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
DD, at this point there is only one way to say it:
George Bush Won:D Elvis is dead, Jerry too :( there is no Santa Claus:( Gary Alt is here to stay:D GET OVER IT!!! |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
I am tip toeing into this battleground with little knowledge of what going on in PA - just curious - I am on the fence - be gentle:D:D
But, unfortunately what he has done is to reduce buck harvests to pre -1984 levels in just 2 years. It is hard to belive one man could do so much harm in that short a time period. I would expect to see a large drop off in bucks taking with Antler regs. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Kind of just browsing around and came upon this topic.I live in WI, also with many hunters and many deer, and have read up on as much info as I could regarding Alt and I beleive he is doing the very best thing for Penn. and can only hope that we get the same thing for WI! IMO.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
You have to ask yourself,where are the bucks that were saved by ar in 2002?Remember,Alt claimed the harvests should return to normal after the first yearof ar.This probably did happen in areas that are still above his deer density goals.However,the herd reductions and extra button bucks harvested contributed to far less bucks being available in many areas.This trend will continue until the deer density goal of less than 15 dpsm is obtained.No one is argueing that AR by itself wouldn't produce more and bigger bucks.The argument is that once his dd goals are met,none of his claims can come true.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Th first year of AR the buck harvest dropped by 35K as expected. The second year of AR it decreased by another 23 K ,when it should have been significantly higher than the first year. The first year of AR we harvested a record 352 K anterless deer and 25% of the anterlesss harvest is BB or adult buck that have lost their rack. Therefore ,we harvested 88K buck as antlerless in 2002 ,the first year of Ar, and that is why the buck harvest dropped the second year of AR.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
You started this thread in another feeble attempt to defend Alt and his highly flawed plan. Both Alt and AR will be history in 4 or 5 years ,so maybe you should follow your own advice and get over it. You certainly can't defend his plan based on science and facts ,since even Alt admits the OWDD tables are wrong and they are the foundation for his entire plan.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Hi Rack attack! Welcome to the Pennsylvania, the new home of the Hatfield/Mccoy fued;).
It is partly what you suggested, partly this year due to horrible weather, and to a small extent (IMHO) the higher BB kill from higher doe allotments, a necessary evil that no one has given a feasible solution to. The point is that we are only going into our third year at this. It is not an exact science. Some folks just have no patience and expect ALL results to be immediately everything they hoped for. Kinda what we're experiencing nationwide with the Iraq situation. Since you said you're new here, I'll mention thaty you have to be careful around here with the deluge of "facts and figures" many have only a shred of truthfulness and are intentionally taken out of context. Trust what you see here only after verification. Most here, from both sides, see some value in the other sides case. we also have to put up with the camp that just plain doesn't like Dr Alt and will say just about anything to discredit him even though he continues to be praised by his peers in the field as well as most Pa hunters. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
DD, If as you say, the OWDD goals are wrong and Alt admits that( it was probably in the context that they need to be modified as we go) Then I trust that he will fix them. Period.
Wouldn't it be professional suicide to admit something is wrong and then continue to follow that course. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Be careful what you wish for . Your herd is being managed at 10-35 DPSM. The goal for our herd is 13 DPSM. In agricutural areas,where we have the best habitat the goal is 5 -10 DPSM. If we reach our goals we will be harvesting 2 buck PSM and with AR our buck harvest decreased by 30% in just two years and it will decrease by more than 50% if we reach our goals.
If that is what you want for Wisc. ,hire someone like Alt to manage your herd. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
What I said.... Verify the numbers.... And the context!
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
DD, If as you say, the OWDD goals are wrong and Alt admits that( it was probably in the context that they need to be modified as we go) Then I trust that he will fix them. Period. Alt has little to worry about because the UBP and the Federation is still backing him and very few people know about the OWDD gaols. He also knows that they will never reach those goals because of restricted hunter access. I have no idea what numbers you want me to verify. The OWDD goals are on the PGC web site. What more due you want. Maybe you are still looking for the link for the OWDD goals and if you are,here is the link one more time. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...A=495&Q=161094 Klic on the PDF file and read it and weap. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
As an outsider with no emotional ties to this whole feasco - I do find it interesting.
And I can see both sides. I can see DD's concerns, and if the BB kill is much higher than pre Alt years I can see it having an adverse effect on Alts goals. Lets face it - if the BB count gets out of control - you may be taking a step backwards. I do want to bring up a point though ,a point I havn't seen presented. If AR's stay in effect I don't think you will ever get your buck kills up to where they were - unless the hunters themselves change. Some on here may rip me for this but..................there are many hunters out there - like in PA - that really don't give themselves a real oportunity to kill any buck but a 1-1/2 year old. And it may not matter how many more mature bucks are in a population - because many hunters cannot consistantly put themselves over these deer. A mature buck is still a mature buck, lets face it - and "Joe blackberry brandy in his pocket sitting on a log" still isn't gonna see him:). I have said this before, and I will say it here - even a solid QDM policy will not benefit the majority of the weekend warrior buck seakers - they will have to shoot a doe or eat tag soup. Find a way to get that BB kill count down a little, give it some time, and hunt smart - and IMO it will start to pay off. Thats if all you care about is bigger racks...........like me:D:D |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Here is the link for the OWDD and unless you are three steps slower than an amoeba you will realize they can't be taken out of context. They are what they are .
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...A=495&Q=161094 |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
AYUUUPPP, just three steps slower than an amoeba and you, of course are SAKU!! (Source of All Knowledge in the Universe)
Guess I just have to learn that a bean counter on acid certainly knows more about deer management than an accomplished wildlife biologist with a PHD in his field. It's meaningless to you that the new OWDD goals now include parking lots, malls, golf courses, suburban backyards, in the total square miles used in the calculation. No matter, that stuff is meaningless and all your statements are accurate and in context. Wulp Me'n my ameoba friends shore nuff hope when Alt gits f'ard that thars nuff spikes and forkies left so's we kin go back to a blastin heck outt've em on op'nin day. Weez hopin you'd be partial ta takin over fer that no account deer wiper outer Alt. Here's ta Doctor SAKU and his management plan! |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Rack Attack,
Your point is well taken. It's kind of early to tell but the BB kill is something that needs scrutiny. What you won't hear from the other side is that this is a concern to ALt and the PGC too. One that has no easy solution given the fact that we have over a million hunters out there. I do know that the whole picture is being adressed on a first things first basis and the first thinmg that needs to happen is a substantial herd reduction in certain areas and at least some reduction in most. Alt has said that once we stabilize the herd we may need to change things even more. One of the biggest reasons I support whats going on despite some personal misgivings is that Dr Alt has aknowleged over and over that we are entering uncharted waters. He has said that we will make mistakes and we will correct them as we go. I think it reasonable to give that game plan a chance to succeed or fail. If it were to fail, the reproductive capability of the whitetail deer will put things back in order very rapidly! |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
I have a question, Where do you find the #'s of deer killed throughout the late summer in the red & green tagged areas of Clinton/Centre co's? I see a pissload of statistics for the # of deer being taken during all the regular gun,bow,,ml seasons but i see crap for the # of deer being killed for crop damage. Whhere does all this fit into the QDM #'s,,,hidden or shoved under the rest of the paperwork??? I know the area that i hunt & i know it well,,,in 25 yrs of hunting this area Clinton/centre co's,,,i have never seen such a dramatic change in deer populations as i have seen in the past 3 yrs. The deer are not there like they were before like it or not! I have been told that maybe i need to change my hunting practices & even move to a different area on here before?BS!!!!!!! Unless i was thrown a powerful learning curve somewhere in the past, im sure that what im seein is the real thing. Ive seen a huge increase in coyotes,,,bobcats,,etc.. The hunt club next to me that lives on the landinforms me of the Amish killin hundreds of deer in a late summer season,,,where do these #'s tally in??? The deer are not there!! bucks,,,doe,,BB's,,,there not there,,,it's that simple! So,,,enlighten me,,,where does all this fit into QDM?
Thanx Mike |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Good question Rem700! You might want to read the results of the fawn mortality studies. Coyotes, bears and bobcats took a way heavier toll than doe hunting in both study areas. It may not address your specific area but it definitely shows some surprising results and gives you something to think about.
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RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
It's meaningless to you that the new OWDD goals now include parking lots, malls, golf courses, suburban backyards, in the total square miles used in the calculation Alt knew from the beginning that the BB harvest would prevent AR from succeeding based on what happened in Ark. ,but he didn't care. It is clear from the article in American Hunter ,that he implemented AR to get hunters to shoot more doe ,and it worked. In a few years,when AR's are repealed he will blame its failure on the hunters,because they weren't selective enough and shot too many BB. But, the simple fact is ,that when you are reducing the herd by 50% there are going to be a lot fewer BB whether we shoot them ,or if we shoot the adult doe that produce them. Not shooting BB,but shooting adult doe instead ,just delays the effect by one year ,but the result is the same,fewer BB and lower antlered buck harvests. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
enlighten me,,,where does all this fit into QDM? The answer is ,that the PA plan is not anywhere close to a QDM plan. No QDM deer manager would attempt to reduce the herd to 50% below the max. carrying capacity. No QDM plan would prevent the culling of inferior buck as AR does. There is nothing in the PA plan that will improve the habitat statewide and simply reducing the OWDD will have little if any effect in many areas where the forest is comprised of pole timber and ferns. Fawn mortality is not the reason you have less deer in Clinton and Centre , the high anterless harvest of 94 and 95,and are the reason. Once the harvest exceed recruitment it takes a lower harvest the following years to reduce the herd even more and that is what happened in you area and it explains why 2 G is now at 12 DPSM. With only 8 doe PSM producing fawns predation will have a greater impact since there are fewer fawns for the predators to prey on. If predator populations are increasing and fawn production is decreasing , predation will have a more pronounced effect,which is the exact oppposite of what Alt claimed would happen. |
RE: Pa deer mgmt: an interesting post from another BB
Well that's good DD, because you told me QDM only works well on private land and hunting clubs a few posts back. Glad his isn't a QDM plan!
Hey I haven't seen a deer in weeks are we sure there are deer still in PA?? Juniorpc. |
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