PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

Here is what Alt had to say about the 1.5 spikes in Pike Co. and in poor habitat.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

Oh knuckles- yes, he's using the antler data collected to tell us what percentage of 2.5 year old bucks in pike have 8 pts or better. You cannot use the same numbers, compared to other anlter data for other age classes harvested in Pike to say what percentage of bucks harvested were 2.5 year olds. That's two quite different things. The PGC biologists did not make the assertation you did because it is invalid to do so for the reasons I have spoke of earlier. I do believe even that data used to determine antler points, spread etc is a bit invalid, though evidently not statisticly signifigent, because folks are more likely to take a bigger racked deer to the check stations, taxidermist, than a smaller racked deer, it musn't be statisticlly signifigent, unlike your use of the data which is signifigently flawed. Juniorpc

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

There you go again Junior! DD had a perfectly good spin started and you go and toss the truth into the mix!!;)

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

What we have here is a prime example of how Alt cult memebers react to a simple statement of fact. All I did was quote what Alt said about the spikes in Pike co. I said nothing about the percentage of 2.5 + buck or the percentage of 1.5 buck. But junior went off on a rant about how the antler study did not represent the actual percentage of 2.5 + buck in the preseason herd.

Now if junior would have done his homework instead of watching the Simpsons ,he would have know that the antler buck survey showed only 40% of the 2.5+ buck were 8+ pts. Since that 40% included bucks that were 3.5+ and it also included bucks that were more than spikes as 1.5 buck, Alt's claim is simply ridiculous and has no basis in fact.

But,junior and junior II compelety missed the point of my post. Instead ,they went on the attack mode ,shooting blanks.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

And thats all I have to say about that!

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

That's fine with me . You never had a leg to stand on to begin with. so your input will not be missed by anyone.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

I see you boys found a new playmate!;)

On the serious side....how could anybody who put any time in the timber figure that ANYPLACE in PA had less than a 1-5 buck/doe ratio?

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

If you think the B/D ratio is 1:5 ,maybe you have the answer to this riddle.

We had 1 M overwintering deer in 2001 and we harvested 203 K buck and carried over an additional 80K buck to 2002. Therefore ,the total preseason buck population was 280K ,which means we had less than 720K adult females which would produce a B/D ratio of 1:2.57. So how could your 1:5 B/D ratio be correct?

Could it be you are talking about the antlered to anterless ratio, not the adult breeding B/D ratio?

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

I live in Wayne county and I believe that our doe to buck ratio is closer to 10 does to every 1 buck, in my area. This is based upon my sightings of none antlered versus antlered deer. Is this correct?? I would say, yes. There are private communities also near me where the deer are fed and hide in there during the hunting seasons. You will see more deer in there versus any other area. I can also tell a button buck from a doe, and I am not counting them.

What is the ratio in your neck of the woods??

T

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

Tomster, you gotta throw in lots of numbers, along with some dots and dashs if you want us to believe you!:D

Our herd was probably just about perfect until the antichrist(Alt)came along.:(

Some folks have agendas, and sooner or later they come to the surface for all to see.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

The antlered to anterless ratio , is around 1 :4 or or 1:5 in my area. The only way you can have a 1:10 ratio is if a significant percentage of the doe in your area aren't being bred. However, if every doe has 1 surviving fawn,which is the state average, then every spring the herd returns to a 1:3 ,B/D ratio even if you don't include the males that ,were carried over from the previous year.

EXAMPLE; 2 doe produce 2 fawns,1 BB and 1 female. Therefore , there are to adult doe and 1 female fawn for a total of 3 females,producing a B/D ratio of 1:3.

Can you find a flaw in that reasoning?

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

Big Country,

I hear you, but I do find that observations or pictures speak louder than words...

deaddeer,

I believe your numbers look good but reality is something different. You are making an assumption that every buck born beomes an 6 or 8 pointer eventually. The reason your numbers don't work by me is that 1, there is a hunting club, 25 members, on 500 acres next to me. Next to that is over 3,000 acres of Public Game Lands. The hunting club ONLY shoots bucks, 5 points or more. Button bucks are the dumbest animals in the woods and are easy target for un-experienced hunters on the Public Lands. Therefore, the button bucks don't make it to full spread, more does survive. Big bucks head into the private communities where it's safe, and other bucks are shot on the 500 acres or 3,000 acres of public land which is heavily hunted if they are there.

Where do you see reality and your numbers comming together??

Pike county might be different from Wayne near me but not by much? Also, why are there several DMAP areas in Pike county selling doe permits, such as the Promise Land, because there is a buck problem. NO, Doe problem!

T

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

BB and female fawns are harvested at the same rate ,so the BB harvet has no effect on the B/D ratio. If we don't have 1 buck for every 2 adult doe ,can you explain how we harvested 203K bcuk in 2001 and stll harvested 52.6K 2.5+ buck in 2002 ? Bucks are always more reclusive than doe and fawns so we all tend to overestimate their numbers and underestimate the buck populations.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

deaddeer,

In Wayne County, 2002, there were 2,359 bucks taken and 6,080 anterless deer for a grand total of 8,439 deer or for every buck taken, 2.5 anterless deer were taken, including button bucks. Since there are 488,265 acres in Wayne County, that equates to .01728364 deer per acre harvested.

I don't believe that the number of deer harvested compares to the number of actual deer on the land. So if you are usuing this as a guide to determine the doe to buck ratio, you are comparing apples to oranges. This is probably due to the fact that the buck is still a more prized reward for hunters than a doe.
If you had a choice between a legal buck and a doe, many would take the buck.

T

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

That comes out to a harvest rate of 10 DPSM. The harvest rate for Wayne for 92-96 was 15 DPFSM , so that harvest is very close to the average harvest for Wayne Co.

I'm not sure what the point was that you were trying to make , but the harvest rate for Wayne correlates with the OWDD numbers and historical harvest rates.

Did you know that the new goal for Wayne is 13 DPSM instead of 20 DPFSM?

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

It's flat out impossible to have a b/d ratio of 1/5 let alone 1/10.Let's assume we kill 200000 bucks(pre ar)and carry over 50000.That would give us 1.25 million adult does with a 1/5 ratio.Those adult does would recruit have 1.1 fawns each.For arguments sake and to simplify things we'll say 1 each.That would give us 3 million preseason deer.That ain't happening.The only thing that matters in a healthy herd is breeding age deer.The antlered/antlerless ratio means nothing.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

You SURELY do not believe this statement.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

What Doug E meant is that in PA where the anterless harvest has averaged 315 K antlerless deer for the past 4 years and where 91% of our adult doe are being bred , it is mathematically impossible to have a B/D ratio of greater than 1:3.

Now before you over react,remember the B/D ratio is defined as the adult breeding B/D ratio, not the antlered to anterless ratio, which would include both male and female fawns.

RE: PIKE CO. SPIKES
 

Deaddeer,

Your numbers do sound more accurate, but observations look otherwise. While scouting the area I'm in, 400 acres, you will see does, does, and more does. I know the bucks are more recuslive than the does.
But I scout and walk the woods all year round since it is like my back yard.

Anyway, you are probably correct.

T