RE: PA Deer Management
 

Junior,I too remember the days of seeing groups of 20 -30 deer.I've said many times that this was far too many deer.I'm not asking for a deer behind every tree.Think about this for a second.There is only one management unit in the state that is at or below it's goal.I live and hunt in that unit.Presently we are at 13 dpsm in this unit.I'm telling you for a fact that we have less bucks overall and way less bigger ones.Unless your hunting in 2g,you're hunting in an area that is above the deer density goals.If you're above the deer density goals you will see more and bigger bucks for a while.However,once those goals are met,there is no way you can have more and bigger bucks.It's mathematically impossible.I'm not against reasonable herd reductions or ar.I'm not against may of the changes implemented.I'm against the ridiculous goals and the lies Alt is using to obtain them.So tell me again,how will we have more and bigger bucks than ever before when these goals are met.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Doug, finally something we agree upon. There were too many deer. Your last sentence was correct as well. What I should have said was that thier will be more bigger bucks. Hell, I have as much Idea as the next guy what isexactly the right answer and what is wrong. I just know that the direction The deer biologist want to go in is correct. The goals of PA deer management are worth attaining. How they actually get there is up for debate. The thing that gets me going is the anti-alt bias. Anti-alt propoganda, anti-alt alterier motive nonsense. Deer management will be fine tuned and overhauled as needed and as the data directs. That's all I ask. Pick a direction, work towards it, tell us the truth (which he is, when he's been wrong he's admitted it), let the studies and the data direct you. Doug no matter how many DPSM we reduce the herd to it won't take too awful long for it to bounce back if we overharvest. But there is still an overabundance of poor habitat out there. No one gave a rats breakfast when local county treasurers were hoarding doe licenses for thier friends (Thank's for nothing LTV), doe licenses dollled out at rates based on what some commissoners feelings were-based on tradition and emotion, sometimes in direct conflict with the biologists recommendations, suddenly a system with some facts, knowledge, science behind it and every is up in arms. Mostly because it's a change, mostly because it's different. Now everybody seems to know how to fix PA's deer herd and it isn't Dr. Alt's way. Heck before he came around no one cared. Now folks care, slowely but surely folks are educating themselves and that's good. It's been a long, long time coming. If x percentage of bucks saved is lower or higher than predicted. If x percentage of bucks at 2.5 years have 4 points or better is higher or lower than predicted, if the average number of fawns decreases while fawn mortality decreases because habitat has improved, If the average number of fawns increases as population decreases, I don't care. I just want deer management to be in tune with all this stuff so I can go out and ethiclly hunt. if the reasoning behind it is sound , you get my support, how many low weight does and scrubby four points can we shoot. A trophy is a trophy for a lot of reasons, one of them being a healthy animal of any sort in the prime of it's existance. I haven't seen too awful many of them in all the time I've been deer hunting and I've harvested a buck every year except a few. Will the changes all take hold and be in place for a long time.. I don't think so. Some will have the expected results, some will have unexpected results both good and bad, but we need to allow the biologist the ability to make the necessary changes, react to the data resulting from the managment stratagies they're implementing. Time, Patience, and trust are needed. Alt has done nothing but good things for PA's hunters. His notariety is the reason he has been able to forge ahead with deer management and his noteriety has also contributed to the negative backlash. He hasn't done anything to warrent any mistrust, not one thing. He sure been the victim of more rumors, false accussations, fabricated "facts" than anyone of us would ever dream of putting up with in private let alone thrown out thier for the entire state to digest. That kinda stuff is ridiculous.
Doug, I think come fall you and I should go spotlighting together. One night I'll host you in Lackawanna County and one night you can host me in Pike County. Heck maybe I'll even buy a round at Mel's tavern or the bar in the Tom Quick in, though last time I think I was a QDM drinker, cause I was one or two age classes up from the young bucks I saw there. Enjoy, Juniorpc.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

What is truly ridiculous is your misguided defense of Alt. His notoriety did not contribute to the negative backlash, but his numerous, repeated lies did. The lies are easily documented because many appear in PGC press releases that are still available on the net.

For example, Alt said that the buck harvests would return to normal the second year of AR and when the harvest data is released ,you will see that the buck harvest will be lower than the 165 K we harvested last year. I predicted several months ago that the buck harvest would be around 140K and we would harvest fewer 2.5 buck than we did in 2002. Time will tell

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Dueling spotlights at 100 yards !!! There's just no hope for ya! Did you read my post about expected, unexpected positive and negative effects. It's called research.... something our deer "management" of the past ignored, failed to do, wasn't based on, or did and was ignored. Be mad at the PGC of the past, the Commissioners who fought the biologists recommendations, fostered myths on not harvesting does, etc. etc. You've been lied to for a long, long time my friend. Juniorpc.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Here's a question for you guys talking about the deer density (DD). I am under the impression that the old data was compiled using Deer per Forested Square Mile (DPFSM) and the new data is compiled using Deer per Square Mile (DPSM). Doesn't this in itself say that the DD will appear smaller due to the new practice? I do reallize it's still lower than that of old, just wondering if the decrease is less signifigant than originally thought? Have at it fellas!:D

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Alt has had 4 years to produce the result he was hired for, herd reduction, and according to the PGC's own stats he has failed miserably.

He has destroyed the trust you say is needed by repeatedly lying to us.

Most researchers conduct experiments on a small scale before implementing a plan that effects an entire population. Alt did the exact opposite.

The PGc has been doing research on our deer for the past 50 years and just because you are unaware of it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Alt is simply continuing studies that have been going on long before he came on board and repeating other studies that have already been done in Md and Miss. Furthermore ,most of these studies will do nothing to improcve deer hunting in the state, just like the bear research did nothing to improve bear hunting.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

You win. You don't care to read or listen. You're the winner. Experiment no... research yes. Large/small scale research.. suddenly you know all about research protocal. Heck, you need enough participants in a study to have it be valid. But enough about the truth. I move on "ignored biologists recommendations" that I've stated several times in this thread implies something (lets say research) led to those recommendations that I state were ignored. The climate over the years has also not been very favorable to biologists undertaking much in terms of deer study that would be politiclly incorrect was not fostered, encouraged, nor did it happen much. Can't have much ground breaking (there I go again using that word) research happen under such a negative climate. So yes I understand research has been going on here and in other states. Some of that has been implemented here (hence not so experimental) How about ground breaking (I'm chuckling now)! Four years??? has he now???? How many years have we had antler restrictions???. How about this, don't impose any pressure on the fellow, don't slow him down or quicken his track and just let him do what the biology tells him over that same four year period and see where we would be now. Don't accept that that task he took on was astronomical in scope with hundreds of different pressures and that has affected how quickly he can move, but then hammer the results minus the concession he's had to proceed on a politically and emotionally charged playing field. I conceed, you win. Deaddeer is the winner. Here ye, here ye... I do proclaim....... wow I gotta go run my hounds and relax. First I'll change my spotlight bulb should be one heck of a fall!!(chuckling again, I crack myself up). Juniorpc.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Junior,I'll be totally honest with you.If I never left Wyoming county,I'd be cheering Alt on.I'd also be saying how sick and tired I was of hearing people complain about seeing no deer.The truth is,many areas have way too many deer.I've never disputed that.However,the reductions are taking place where the herd has already been reduced.Cooincidentally that's also where all the state timber is..I also never complained about ar.Actually I've given Alt credit where I felt is was do.Some of you people just need to get out and hunt some areas where the deer density goals are at or below the goals.Also,prove me wrong about anything that I've posted.You can't.I have the documentation to back up everything I've said.

I actually live in Clearfield county but I grew up in Tunkhannock.I'd be glad to go spotlighting with you some time.I'm in Tunkhannock every few months.I'll probably do a little tukey hunting and trout fishing back there in May.All I ask is that you make a trip out here.We'll compare spottlighting results and I'll show you several enclosures where nothing but junk is growing inside.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

I saw 27 illegal buck in archery season and one legal ... i am under 16 so i didnt complain but i shot a 3 point with a 15 inch spread that was 3.5 years old ! now how the hell are our bucks gonna get bigger with those little junks running around !

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Yes, Doug thier are areas out thier that are more in line with managment goals. Your suggesting he micromange these areas? Heck he's had to scratch and claw just for an initial foothold. I'm all for letting him take a good stab at deer managment and take a look at it down the road. Folks can't ignore the fact that the great hurdles- misguided views of the public, politicians, PGC law enforcement personell, PGC Commissioners, A century of traditon, that needed to be overcome have shaped his first couple years of managment. Things can't change overnight and folks who never supported him because it was change or simply that it was Alt, then isolate this fact or that fact and sight it as evidence that "Alt has failed." Just getting this far was a huge victory, and one only he could have accomplished (it took someone with some noteriety and media connects to overcome the immense opposition from within). Thing will only get better in the long run. Which doesn't mean there will not be ups and downs, good decisions and poor ones. Folks just need to leave it in the hands of the folks who have the best chance to make the right decisions. That's all I've ever advocated.. leave it in the hands of the folks who have the best oppertunity to make the correct decisions. has he done everything right, nope, but he's still standing so he's done most things right.... fine tuning will come, more drastic changes based on what data shows will come too, admitting this change was better, that change was worse for things will come too. Folks don't want to here that though. They'd rather it stay the same, despite what negative impact that would have. Using hunting as a proper manament tool is what will allow hunting to stand the test of time. Doug, email me or I'll email you as we get closer to fall and well meet up to spotlight a couple times. Juniorpc. Juniorpc

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Just what did he do that was right? He was hired to reduce the herd but it has done nothing but increase since he was appointed. Ar was suppose to double the number of 8 pts. but that's pretty hard to do when the buck harvested decreased by 30% in just two years.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

MikeE just caught your apology. No apology necessary. It has been a myth perpetuated for years. Long enough that it will probably never go away.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

deaddeer, I'm now convinced that if every hunter scored on a booner next year and Gary Alt develpoed some wonder plant that would feed 5,000,000 deer in Pa and a 200 lb deer was behind every tree, you would still find fault with him. Is your real name Silinsky?

RE: PA Deer Management
 

All he has to do is manage the herd at the true carrying capacity of the habitat and i would be happy. It would also please me if he told the truth about AR for a change. This years buck harvest stats make him look silly.

Although they didn't release that stats , I guarantee you we harvested more 2.5+ buck in 2002 than we did in 2003. That wasn't suppose to happen.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

CoyotePup,
That would mean that you saw 27 bucks that had spikes less than three inches! Who aged your buck and what method was used. Where are you hunting....county, WMU, public or private? What was the weight of that deer? When did you kill it? Since you're a junior hunter, why did you pass on all those bucks and then kill a 3 point?

RE: PA Deer Management
 

BT, notice he did not reply to that??? Maybe you hit the nail on the head.

IF I see any more freakin harvest numbers I am gonna Puke:D

I would like to know if the weather was better the first day how many more legal buck would have been shot. Hell the first saturday they predicited a huge snowstorm (that never came up here) and all the flatlanders beat feet home (you know bread milk and toilet paper) on Friday AM.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Cheer up. The buck harvest in Wyoming Co. actually increased in 2003. Your county was one of the few lucky ones.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

I have no doubt that the buck harvest increased in Wyoming county.Their antlerless allocations haven't been enough to decrease the herd.Plus,with the exception of sgl 57,the entire county in privately owned.I grew up in Wyoming county and am fortunate to make it back there a few times a year to hunt.I have no problems with some of the theories behind this management plan.I just can't except the ridiculous deer density goals for each unit.I hunt in Wyoming county where the deer density is 3 times it's goal.Save some 1.5 year old bucks and the hunting is bound to be better.The problem is,once the deer densities goals are met,none of Alt's claims will come true.I live in the southern portion of 2g.Currently,this is the only area that has reached the deer density goals.Let me tell you,there is a world of difference between hunting at this deer density and one that's three times the goal.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

as a bystander on this arguement, and with QDM raising it's godawful head here in VT, i have to ask a few questions: if there is so much land, (and by the sounds of it they are really big parcells), that is private, how does your dept. expect to effectively manage the herd if hunters can't get to the herd? the ideal c.c. for a QDM program should be around 60%, is alt heading for that? i know here in VT, and i believe NH is the same way, relatively little land is posted, and if it isn't posted, as long as you respect the property, you can just park alongside the road and go hunting, why does the residents down there feel they have to shut off access, up here you are considered a game hog for doing so, especially if you post your land, then hunt elsewhere. yes, you have more hunters, about 10 times the amount we do, but your landmass is probably 10x ours also. does the dept. have in place a management plan for those areas that have blocked access to hunters, heck, just through natural dispersion, the herd is going to remain close to the same level i would think. just some questions and observations for you all.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

PA has no plan in place that addresses managing the herd where harvests are controled by limited access . Their only solution they have is to issue more anterless tags and several counties have over 80 tags PFSM and they still can't control the herd. So we have very high deer densities on private land and low deer densities on public land.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

I personally feel that it really does not matter what the commission does. Why? Simply put, PA has way too many hunters to get the herd in healthy balance. Actually let me rephrase that. Too many hunters in particular areas. Most state game lands are hunted to exhaustion every season. Most of the legal bucks are killed and we are left with small spikes and "Y" bucks. In these areas, the deer typically don't have the food source to generate big racks. This is not from over bowsing either. Agriculture areas stand the best chance of generating bigger bucks each year. But look at where most of the game lands are.. mountainous areas. These areas generally don't produce a decent size buck in its first couple years. These deer need more time to grow these racks. But, in most cases they are whacked in their 2nd or 3rd year as a small 6 or even small 8.

I think the deer herd management is going pretty well. The buck/doe ratio has been out of whack for quite some time. That part of the management is legite. I have serious questions on the part that they tell us that the buck hunting is going to get better.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

The B/D ratio is not out of whack. It has been 1:2.2 for many years.What makes it appear to be out of whack is the antlered /anterless ratio which is around 1:5 preseason. If someone takes a buck from an area the first week of archery ,that ratio jumps to 1:10 ,which makes it look like the B/D ratio is out of whack.

However, you are right about the quality of the bucks on most SGL,especially in the NC counties. Poor soils, short growing seasons and hard winters make for a lot of small racks.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Most of you have probably figured this out by now but for the benefit of those who havent and any newbies out there Take DD with a big lump (not just a grain) of salt. Check what you read here! He spouts a lot of numbers making it look,at first glance, like he's done his homework. Had my head spinning for awhile! Problem is, many of these "facts and figures" don't seem to be available from a credible source. If you read carefully, some he admittedly says he "just knows the PGC isnt telling the truth".
Sorry if i've restated the obvious, I just get frustrated when someone starts stating "facts" that have a distorted basis. I just can't let stuff like that go unchallenged! I guess its a character flaw!

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Well said, well said. The post that really got me was the fellow that asked for more information from DD, after a particularly "fact" filled post. Kinda like going to L. Ron Hubbard for advice about religion! I don't think DD is Slinsky, his posts aren't as full of himself as Slinksy would be and I don't think Slinsky can tone that down. Gotta wonder about a fellow who has a website with a section for his own qoutations on it! Juniorpc.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

I challenge you to prove that statement is true. The OWDD goals are available on the PGC website. Tha antler buck survey is available on the same website as is the harvest data. You can go the the PGC PR section and see many of Alt's claims for yourself. It is all there for those that want to become educated about deer management . But for some ,ignorance is bliss because it allows them to belive in their baseless opinions rather than facing reality.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Wull gee whiz guys[&:]! here we wuz all this time thinkin that we oughter let Doc Alt do his thing but we wuz all ignorant to the numbers.[X(] Thank goodness a smart feller like DD came along and showed us his way of a crunchin them numbers tagether. All this time I wuz a thinkin that seein some bigger bucks wuz a good thang. Seemed ta me that thinnin out some does ,and they is mighty tasty, would leave a bit more food ta go round fer the critters and mebbe let some trees grow up a bit. I guess weez all been wrong. This feller has "bases" fer his opinions an Doc Alt musta been fibbin to us all this time!

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Is that all you have,more idle rhetoric and nothing to support you claim that the facts and figure s I provide can't be documented. Talk is cheap and you are pretty good at cheap talk and cheap shots ,but you can't provide facts to support your cheap talk.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Geez thats very contradictory to the PGC's GPS tracking data that indicates that over 90% of the hunters dont venture further than 1/3 of a mile away from the road. Unless the Game lands are only a couple hundred of acres??

Dont know how they could get overhunted up here where many areas of SGL are more than 4 or miles across and in many instances ALOT more than that.

BT, he still has not answered one of your previous questions??

Maybein I is Guessin he was tryin ta ivoid da subgect???? (PS you crack me up!!!)LOL)

RE: PA Deer Management
 

I do not know if that is entirely true but I do agree that whatever plan they have is inaffective.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

I believe they were talking about NC PA. I hunted Potter & Tioga Cntys years ago and there it's possible to walk miles without seeing another hunter or a road. Not so in the east.

RE: PA Deer Management
 

Alt said at the Lehigh valley Sports Expo that they didn't have a solution to the limited access problem as yet. They are cosidering permitting baiting and having split seasons to allow deer to move out of restricted areas . However, the latter is not a solution ,since once deer are pressured ,they stay in the restricted areas for extended periods.

They also said in the management plan that SRA areas and urban areas would see the least herd reduction since those areas have had unlimited anterless tags for many years with little effect.