glew22

It's not propaganda when it's true and for me and is what I employ when I'm hunting. If I believed success was measured in antler inches I wouldn't have passed up a 15 yard quartering away shot at a 2.5yr old buck that would have been my BIGGEST buck ever. I felt successful when I let that buck walk, and I can't wait to get a picture of him next year.

I also felt successful when I shot a 4yr old doe out of that same tree (the second doe I shot that day from that tree). What's more, by shooting that doe not only did I contribute to my goal of reducing the herd, but her 1.5yr old son and her BB son have stayed put. Every other yearling buck I had on film at this location has dispersed. So by shooting that mature doe I helped bring down the deer density, improved the sex ratio prior to the rut, increased nutrition available for other deer by shooting her in September instead of December, and prevented the dispersal of two bucks that I will now get to watch grow up using my cameras.

So you can say I'm throwing around QDM propaganda, you can say whatever you want. But one thing you can't tell me how I measure success. I measure my own success based on the age of the deer, not the antler size. And I know a lot of people involved with the QDMA that share that with me.

Screamin Steel

Funny. I always though that success was measured by ethics and enjoyment. Never knew that age of the deer was a necessary ingredient. So I guess if you had killed the best buck of your life (that 2.5 year old), you would have had an unsuccessful season? Amazing. But of course he was a "bad quality" deer. I do have to ask...Was it his rack that was bad quality?...Would his chops have just tasted awful?....Or was he diseased or somehow inferior in any other way than his age?

Screamin Steel

Here's a definition for you: "ANY DEER HARVESTED UNDER FAIR CHASE CONDITIONS IS A TROPHY IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER." When my son begins hunting THIS is what he will be taught to gauge his success by. Obey the rules, excercise personal ethics, and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter at all how big or how old your deer was...or even if you killed one. Anything less than this is superficial. I would never think of imposing any limitation upon him other than those imposed by the law. If he wants to gladly shoot every legal yearling buck that waltzes down the trail, it's his choice. If he decides at some point to limit himself, good for him, but it really doesn't matter to me in the least, as long as he enjoys what he's doing, obeys the laws, excercises ethics in the field, and continues to spend time outdoors with his Dad.

glew22

You're right Steel. I was responding to BB's statement stereotype that success is measured in antler inches, I responded with two factors that, for me, go much further in defining success. Enjoying time in the outdoors is what it's all about, I think we can all agree on that. And in regards to ethics, if you're not doing it ethically, then get the he// out of the woods.

I don't think I would have had an "unsuccessful" season if I harvested that buck. However, going into the season I made a personal decision to not harvest a buck under 3.5. I made that decision because, for me, the challenge of harvesting a 3.5 yr old buck is so great that when I finally am successful it will be well worth passing up 2.5s. So if I would have shot him, I'm sure I would have felt successful, esp. if I had double lunged him and got to see him go down. However, I think ultimately I would have been disapointed for not following through on my personal goals. You can say I'm stupid for being disapointed about harvesting a great 2.5, but the disapointment wouldn't have came from the deer, it would have came from failing to meet my personal goals. I think we all feel some degree of disapointment or regret when we fail to meet self imposed goals...so I think many will understand where I'm coming from.

The last section of your post brings up a good point. Maybe I should not have said that a quality buck is "3.5+ yrs old" because it contradicts a lot of what I believe. For instance, I do not feel this buck is inferior in any way shape or form. On the contrary, if he is indeed 2.5, he's the best 2.5 I've ever gotten on film at this location. I know ultimately that I will get a lot more enjoyment out of getting this buck on film again next year, and possibly getting a shot at him, then I would have if I drew my bow. So getting back to your main point, yes there are a lot of factors above the age of a deer that define success, especially enjoyment. But when I measure my own success age will supercede antler score 100% of the time.

glew22

I honestly could not agree with you more. I think this is the foundation that everyone should incorporate into their opinions. I will never look down or judge anyone because they shot a yearling spike. Everyone gets something different out of hunting. Some go out the first day and thats all. Success should always be measured on an individual basis. Case and point, my 12 yr old sister started hunting for the first time this yr. It was in the same place that I passed up the 2.5. Was he a shooter for her? OF COURSE. So were all the yearlings. Did a little part of me hope that the 2.5 made it through, yes (that was probably selfish on my part). But would I have been upset if my sister got him...NOOO. It would have been the most rewarding day of the year for me. I know we disagree on some topics, Steel, but I want you to know that my word means a lot to me, and everything above is how I truly feel.

Screamin Steel

Thanks. You cleared up alot of things with those last two posts. Sadly, I know more than a few self proclaimed QDM guys, and I can tell you that they leave a strong impression that it really IS al about harvesting bigger bucks, and they candy coat that fact with telling us all about the habitat, conservation, healthy deer herd, etc. In fact I count a couple of them as good friends, and eve turkey hnut with and fish with a few of them...but I just can't accept their mentality on deer hunting, and have turned down a few opportunities to hunt with them on "managed" private land. Call me odd or old fashioned (though I'm still a young buck like you), but I've always wanted my hunting to be as natural as possible. I like the idea of taking what the land gives you, not manipulating things to grow larger deer, or sitting on a "harvest" plot. Not that I don't apprecate a nice set of antlers, but I like 'em natural ( like some other things we guys tend to appreciate, lol) it would cheapen the experience to me if I knew the buck was fed on a bunch of supplements and high protein food plots. At this point in my hunting I often pass on legal deer, but I accept that whatever buck I decide to shoot was a natural product of the land, and not my own manipulation. Hunting is my way of geting back to the basics, and becoming a participant in nature. A predator. Not a beneficiary of my deer farming. And many of my most successful hunts ended with tag soup. There was the cool buck fight I saw last year on Nov 2. And the breeding party of seven bucks chasing a hot doe on the 11th.The gobbler that somehow knew that that last step would put him in front of my gun, and melted back into the brush. The flintlock hut with my six year old son that only produced some squirrel sightings, but priceless, great bonding time. That's what its all about.

Valentine

My plan is to get my old carcass on a non-resident, non outfitter, hunt in Pennsylvania this year.

With the snow and cold they are presently getting, some winter kill, unknown to many I guess, will get many a complaining Pennsylvania hunter out to Colorado and Wyoming.

That should leave a bunch of land for me to hunt on a vacant Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.

Let them complain. Ole codger is looking forward to Pennsylvania.

BTBowhunter

I also agree with everything you said here Steel. As you said, any deer harvested is a trophy inthe eye of the beholder. A successful season doesnt necessarily always mean harvesting a buck or even a doe.

So how does that square with supporting AR or QDM? Well, first of all we ALL, every one of us would rather see a big buck than a little one. For any hunter to say the rack doesnt matter is not quite true. The test is to ask a guy if a big 12 point and a barely legal buck came in at the same time and both gave a decent shot which would he shoot? Under those circumstances, I dont know of one hunter who would let the 12 go and take the smaller buck.

That being said, The QDM goal is to do our best to keep a herd in balance with it's habitat, keep a natural BD ratio and promote a more natural age structure. Yes, bigger racks wind up being a product of that and it would be silly to say it's not a major motivator but it's not the only motivator.

No deer herd is unaffected by humans today. The only issue is how much control humans exert on the herd. In the past, PA hunters were exerting heavy pressure on any buck that managed to reach 1.5 years of age. We were mainpulating them to a very young average age. We still are but the average age has been raised a bit. It's also an issue of how much we can realistically do with over 900,000 hunters.


You also mention food plots and your preference for a more natural situation. I would say thats a matter of degree for most of us. Unless we hunt way back in some wilderness area, its near impossible to hunt deer that havent been manipulated by man either incidentally of intentionally. Is hunting the edge of a yet unharvested corn field or an alfalfa field really any different than hunting near a food plot planted just for the deer? In either case, it's hunting over man made food. I'd say that major difference is that the food plot continues to feed the deer beyond the season. Is that any different than well meaning hunters putting out feed for the deer after the hunting season? I'm involved in a food plot program on our Illinois farm and the majority of our food plots are about year round nutrition, actual "harvest" plots are only a small part of the deal. Supplements? We dont do that but again, it's a matter of personal preference.

It all boils down to personal preference and usually its really a matter of degree or levels. No management plan can be all things to all people and the best we can hope for is the compromise that gets closest for the majority of hunters.

Screamin Steel

I understand what you're saying, BTB. In this day and age it is next to impossible to replicate a truly natural hunting experience. I guess I justify hunting farm country by rationalizing that the crops would be there with or without deer, their purpose being commercial agriculture, and not to directly influence the quality of my deer hunting. I alos won't deny that I've occasionally desired to experience a midwest hunt. Of course, the midwest with its rich soils and abundant agriculture have been producing nice bucks since long before anyone coined the term "QDM' or ever planted a plot expressly for the benefit of deer. Of course the wilderness of the canadian provinces or even maine and vermont commonly produce some large deer, and miles from any food plot. In my mind, this would be a better expression of a true trophy than anything I could ever grow on a managed property. There are going to be as many opinions on this subject as there are stars in the sky. My primary beef with QDM, is that is think it's having a negative impact on our sport, and also in the eyes of the nonhunting public. It's not enough for us to go and hunt for deer as they exist in nature, but now we have to personally manipulate them, and yes....alot of it is to create more big bucks. It's also creating a division among hunters. The privileged that are part of a lease with a "QDM" label, and those who are not as fortunate. I hate to see such social classing among deer hnuters, classes that historically did not exist commonly in America, but what ultimately evolved in Europe, into a very exclusive fraternity for rich nobles. Scenario: A few families who have hunted the same piece of land for years are told by the landowner that after this year, they are not going to be allowed to hunt. He has signed a lease agreeement (more than the others could ever dream of paying) with a hunting club who will have exclusve hunting rights, and will manage it under QDM for trophy whitetails. The landowner feels bad, but he needs the money. The families either are relinquished to public land or just quit hunting. Sound familiar? It should. It happens everyday, esp in the prime areas of the midwest, and yes, increasingly more in PA. Then we see guys make statements about declining hunter numbers that reflect a growing trend in selfishness..."Good. Less pressure, more deer for me..., etc." And that one is almost verbatim from that "evil empire" (LOL) Hunting PA website- posted last week. Incredible. I feel exactly the opposite. I cringe every time when I hear that another guy is hanging up the gun. In these times of mounting social and political oposition against recreational hunting, we need every one of us. I apologize that I'm ranting now, I just fail to recognize any widespread benefits being realized from the perpetuation of QDM. All I see is more division among hunters...Granted, some of it probably steeped in envy...HR has contributed significantly to this. Nothing like hearing John Doe and his buddies bragging about all the "140's" and the high DD they got running around the lease, while Bubba and the boys drove the mountain and the state land hard and didn't see much. Interestingly, John Doe and his buds support the deer plan 100%, it's the same sound science that benefits them on their QDM land, right?..Only their land isn't being "managed for all wildlife", the general public, and the state's commercial hardwood revenue. Not to mention the QDM lease land is now covered with food plots for every season, supplements, etc...and their DD are sky high as a result. Hard to find any faults at all with the state's DMP from a treestand perch watching a parade of deer into a green field, isn't it? Of course, there has always existed private land vs. public, thats no new development...However I think QDM has played a major role in the push for more private land acquisition and the resulting increase in the more troubling concept known as "privatization of wildlife", which was listed several years ago by D&DH magazine as the biggest threat to hunting today. I find it very ironic that the same publication now embraces QDM to such a high degree.


Gotta go....Write more later.

Hunt4Life23

I definitely agree that a trophy is in the eyes of the beholder and every hunter has a different look on what is a trophy. Rack and age are certainly not everything to me, as the experience is the most important thing to me while hunting. But if two bucks walk out to me and one is an older, bigger deer and I want to harvest one of them, I am going to shoot the bigger one every time.

My outlook on what deer I want to harvest has changed greatly since I began hunting. In my first years of hunting it didnt matter what the deer looked like, if it was a huge buck, little buck, doe, or fawn I was so excited to see any deer and to shoot any deer I had a chance at. I was lucky to have my father support my every decision and I would never look down on anyone for choosing to shoot any animal as long as it is a legal kill. If someone is happy for shooting a spike or a fawn, I am going to be happy for them too because I have shot spikes before and I was just as thrilled as killing a 6 pointer or an 8 pointer. It is all about the experience being out in the woods and the success of pulling the trigger and making a kill shot on a wild animal is a memory never forgotten.

After a few years of hunting I began passing up smaller bucks in certain areas and even passed some bucks that my dad would of shot. This was all my decision and to me that is what I wanted to do. To this day the first thing I worry about when going out hunting is putting food on the table and if I need the meat I will shoot a younger buck if given the chance. Venison is certainly my favorite food and I dont think I could go a year without it. I hunt in new york, new jersey, and PA every year and my outlook on what I want to shoot in each state is different. I set goals going into the season for each state and try to reach those goals every year. At home in PA I hunt in an area with low pressure and I choose to pass on younger bucks and let them grow but in NJ I often shoot younger bucks if I have the chance. My sister recently started hunting and I was lucky enough to be at her side two years ago when she shot her first deer. Even though it was a doe, I could see the same excitement in her eyes that I had when I shot my first deer and I knew she was hooked. I always try to get my friends and also younger kids to start hunting to ensure that hunting will be passed on.

So looking back at my outlook on trophies, every animal I harvest is a trophy, whether it is a squirrel, deer, turkey, or elk it is an accomplishment to take an animal and have that memory forever. I take pictures of every animal I harvest to ensure I will never forget that moment. To this day my blood still gets pumping and my heart beating fast when I have any deer coming into range and just being in the outdoors and harvesting, or even just watching deer gets me going like nothing else I've experienced in life. To me thats what its all about!