"Busloads"? of angry deer hunters descend on PGC meeting!
 

I believe it was reported here that Jimmy the Slink predicted busloads of hunters would descend on Harrisburg yesterday to protest the past season.

They must've been the "short buses".................

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1264391709189540.xml

The meeting was over in three hours. 26 people spoke in total and about a third of that were there to speak about low deer numbers.

So a well publicized all important meeting where we were supposed to see what could easily be called a "deer management tea party" simply didnt materialize. Seems to me the representation at a state meeting tells us way more than these few internet polls with (usually) less than a hundred participants.

Boop claims hunters have given up

Hunters are seeing less deer, there's no disputing that. Most of us would enjoy seeing more deer. No disputing that either. But rather than giving up as Boop claims, maybe hunters are beginning to see why there needed to be less deer and accepting what we were told from the beginning..... less deer equals less deer.

People have been attending these meetings for years now, some years a few meetings, other had several with the "open houses" trying to get pgc to change things. How long do you think it takes for people to realize they are being ignored?

Representatives have taken polls. You dont need to cite internet reports or the turnout which isnt indicative of much of anything. The legislator polls showed a big MAJORITY dont support a pgc fee increase. As for the meeting, I was told it went just fine. Plenty of deer complainers. One of the reasons pgc didnt give the airtime on the webcast. Only showing the pgc testimony today.

As for turnout, good or poor, makes no diff. as most people arent gonna drive for hours from all across the state to get there, esp. After being ignored for years. Not when its much easier to correspond with people who are the only ones who can fix this. The legislators.

Part of your logic could apply if not for the fact that this is essentially a new BOC with fresh faces.

The fact that the public comment portion of first meeting after deer season had so few speakers on the subject and was over so quickly when a new BOC was there to listen is not a "no diff" situation.

When UBP attended the meeting to decide on extending archery two weeks into the rut, it was standing room only and still overflowed into the lobby and halls. The dismal showing at this meeting is definitely very telling.

"

Most dont trust the commissioner selection process any more than they do the pgc themselves. As far as that goes, i'd wager by far the majority of hunters in this state couldnt even tell you who the commissioners are.

Btw, boop also said in that article he has been hearing from hunters who do not believe its worth the time & effort to show up anymore. Think that pretty much sums it up.

You also might wanna look at who wrote the article. The pro-pgc version of the slinkster. Schneck. Real well known to be unbiased source. lol

Not for 8-10 years. Because thats how long THIS issue has been ongoing.

"The dismal showing at this meeting is definitely very telling. "

I agree. The people are learning who listens. The legislators, not pgc. Something i learned long before now. A lot easier to send emails, calls & letters to those people that listen. So why on earth would i go hundreds of miles simply to bang my head off the wall talking to people who have ignored us for many years now?:happy0157: There were meetings where not another person could fit. Besides staying the course, what was the result? lmao.:s13:

I absolutely agree that the BOC doesnt always listen to hunters. The xbow fiasco was glaring proof of that.

That doesn't mean you give up on any front. If you believe in your cause, you keep on hammering at it from all angles. In my example of the UBP and the extension of archery season, it was also a years long effort.

IMHO, the low number is more an indicator that the USP and like minded crowd is not the force you think it is and some may have indeed resigned to the idea that less deer is the right way to continue.

Oh rest assured, we are. The "hammering" is now on the legislators.:hit: Its gotten us the fee increase prevention. Whats petitioning the pgc gotten us other than ignored by the "green" thinking commission? Would be just as productive to petition audubon or peta for more deer!:p

The internet polls. The legislator polls. The people i hear on a daily basis....

All of these beg to differ. But believe as you like. You are very close to being "alone" in your assertion that most support the failed plan. Very few, even on the highly biased hpa, aside from one or two VERY extreme types, will not use that angle when the proof is so overwhelming. The argument now is that we hunters may not support it, but we arent smart enough to challenge the experts positions, so should just sit back and shut up. lol.

Please explain why the PGC doesn't get its fee increase.

>The argument now is that we hunters may not support it, but we arent smart enough to challenge the experts positions, so should just sit back and shut up. lol.

It's no more the job of the GC to make hunters happy than it is a parents job to keep their children happy.

The GC manages the wildlife resources of PA and a parent raises(manages) a child.

Child says "I don't want to go to school or brush my teeth". If it was the parents job to keep their child happy they would use their spawns input in deciding if they should make said offspring go to school and brush their teeth.

WV Gino

Sure it is. Hunting is the management tool. To say it doesnt matter is completely irresponsible on the part of a management agency. Which is why most dont make that ridiculous leap.

Only problem in your little depiction is that its not debatable that not brushing can lead to extreme health implications. Our deer program is very nonessential as is. There would be far more good than harm by NOT staying the course exactly as is. There is much room for improvement. Staying the course, in comparison to your little parent child theme would be more like the parent knocking the childs teeth out with the back of their hand. Totally uncalled for, Totally unacceptable and very extreme. So extreme, the parent should be prosecuted. Unfortunately thats not a legal option currently for pgc. Pgc isnt doing one thing for "our benefit" but do slap us across the face figuratively every chance they get.

Then again, its kinda funny to see your usual condescending antihunter sentiment referring to hunters as the children and an agency which many if not most believe to be corrupt as the "wise parent". lol .

You're kidding right?

Because the legislators havent seen fit to do the right thing. And PLEASE dont insult our intelligence by telling us that our elected politicians are doing the peoples bidding LOL. One only has to turn on any news channel any day to know that our politicians have gone way far away from that principle on all fronts in Harrisburg just as they have in Washington. Incumbents have ALWAYS shied away from hunting and fishing license increases like they were a plague! It's not really any different this go around.

>would be more like the parent knocking the childs teeth out with the back of their hand.

That would be child abuse and negligence. Violations of the law.

If you think the GC is violating the law go to court and seek an injunction. That's what the USP is doing.

A better example is a parent decides to send their child to violin lessons instead of scoccer camp. Or raise their child in the jewish faith vs. baptist. It is entirely within a parents legal perogative to do so.

They are allowed to raise their child as they see fit.


Same as it's within the legal perogative of the GC to manage the number of deer in PA based how those deer effect the other flora and funa vs. raising the max possible deer over the short haul and to hell with what that will mean down the road.

WV Gino

Theyve done the right thing. The job of the representatives is self explanatory. To REPRESENT the people. The people have spoken. The representatives listen. Theyve also cited the exact reason for it. Deer plan.

And what pgc is doing could be called negligence by not acknowledging the harm they are doing, and it SHOULD be a violation of the law.

No thank you. I think i'll trust my legislators to handle the fight on my behalf. For an individual to take on pgc, or dcnr or other state agency would be like Vern Troyer trying to take on Mike Tyson.

Not when they rely on their childs soccer derived income (like hunters paying the bills), as well as having society benefit greatly (like us controlling the deer herd) in some way because of that childs interest in not violin but soccer. To push the violin and say screw the soccer would be asinine on the parents part.


No reason to worry about "down the road" with reasonable, accepted and proven deer densities.

You also dont have to completely sacrifice one over the other if the goal for neither is "extreme". If you want extreme levels of biodiversity, you will have extremely low deer numbers. If you want extremely high deer numbers, you'll have little biodiversity. There is also a balance. That balance should be what is considered the norm pretty much everywhere else. And thats not happening here currently. Audubon, dcnr & pgc do not want "balance". Their values differ from those of the average "normal non extreme enviromental" people of Pa.

Nope. Sorry you dont like my methods or those of many other pa hunters. Pgc is a lame duck agency, doing dcnr & timber + audubons bidding. To ask anything of substance from Pgc is like asking the 5 year old neighbor to borrow his dads truck.
They wouldnt have the authority if they even wanted to.

How many guys are gonna drive halfway across the state to a meeting such as this after the last decade of it being so effective? lol. Not me. Work here to do. If i had NOTHING to do, and i could be driven by limo for free with food & drink included I wouldnt have gone. I'll not even acknowledge that pgc input system as legit. Its not.

Im putting my effort to actual use where it actually is meaningful with the legiscritters. Laying in bed all day would be better spent time than wasting it saying one more word to pgc. I havent been to a meeting or even sent them an email in years. Only words I wanna hear from them is "goodbye"..:s8:

It's lookin' more and more like ol' ManySpurs has had a whole bunch of smoke blown up his arse.:confused0024: We'll see tomorrow:s8:.

....Dont get me wrong, there ARE a few good guys on the boc pretty much all throughout this ordeal. Thing is they are kept to a minority, so their vote is meaningless. Boop is a good example. Hes been against this dmp all along. Cant do anything though when you have the rest of the boc made up largely of representatives from "other" special interest groups.

You have some who are members of various conservancy groups. Those groups are antideer. Some are members of antideer groups like the made up yes man org. "pa deer association". Another few are qdma... And at least 6 of the 8 are members of PennFed sportsmen & conservationists....a well known to be "pgc yesman" group who encourages the "enviro" movement & embraces nonhunting enviro extreme members, whom many believe are callling the shots in the organization. Pennfeds representative btw, gave testimony supporting the deer plan as usual & funding, so its not gonna be hard to figure out how the associated commissioners will most likely vote on issues in the future..

If thats not having a stacked board, Im not sure what is.:confused0024:

...>Course noone thinks it odd members of one known yes man org. who are antideer would make up 6 members of an 8 man board? lol.

What exactly is it that pursuades a politition to vote the way they do?

I'm thinking that maybe elected officials would want to keep voters happy. They'd certainly realize that if they make voters unhappy they may lose their job.

So tell me again BTB, why would a politition refuse to allow the PGC a fee increase?

What is in it for the politition if he votes , "NO!"?

>So tell me again BTB, why would a politition refuse to allow the PGC a fee increase?

I'll take a stab. A Hunting license increase will be looked upon by those that have to pay it the same way they do a tax increase. No one likes a tax increase and voters tend to take out their displeasure over tax increases on those who voted for said increase.

Historically the GC and FC do not get license increases until the situation is desperate.
If every single hunter in PA killed a buck this past season most would still be unhappy with a license increase.

WV Gino

....Oh, ok. thanks for clearing that up Gino. I guess all the hunters who say they dont support it because of the deer plan and all the legislators who say they will not support it until changes are made to the deer plan because of their, and the hunters disgust with the deer plan are all lying. lol.:nonono2:

Yeah. They are all tightwads. Thats all it is. lol.:nonono2: Guess all the supporters who whine about pgc in their distorted view, being "held hostage" or "blackmailed" because of the deer plan are all misinformed as to the reason as well. lol.

"But if the agency could be trusted, most would understand its necessary.

Well said there Gino. Legislators have always been loathe to approve a license fee increase in PA. Anyone ever noticed that It NEVER happens in an election year? If it were another issue, the volume of calls and letters they're getting on this wouldn't even make em blink but PA's lawmakers have always been skeeerd to death of license fee increases and probably always will be...........

Id hope those guys would contact their legislators. If they have done that already or continue to, then I have no problem with them sitting on their bar stools instead of being at the pgc meeting. If theyve done nothing at all, then they deserve whatever they are dealt. Just my opinion. On the other hand, if some want to attend those meetings, more power to them.

Interesting article on the meeting. Commissioner Boops take, and backed up by legislator(s).

"Boop believes they stopped showing up because they got tired of being ignored.

Indeed, many state legislators — state Rep. Bryan Cutler, of Peach Bottom, for one — said hunters have increasingly been turning to them the past few years to lodge complaints about a lack of deer.

Cutler said last year that Pennsylvania's declining deer herd was the top issue constituents contacted him about. "

Hmm. Sounds exactly like what ive said doesnt it? Imagine that. lol.

Btw fellas, if you can you should try and tune in to the webcast tomorrow. Dont know what will get accomplished by i guarantee from some info that Id obtained... its gonna be alot more interesting than todays was. lol.

Wait a minute guys!

In one breath you guys are saying that the majority of hunters are happy with the deer management situation here in PA and only the USP type are unhappy.

Then in the next breath you think legaslators are afraid to vote for a fee increase because hunters will get mad and vote them out of office..

Now if the majority of hunters are well satisfied with the PGC's deer management then they'll also aprove the fee hike.

Look at this site for example. Those that feel there are plenty of deer want the increase.

Those of us that are not happy with the PGc's deer management plan are the ones against a fee hike.


So if you guys are correct about only the USP types being the whining minority, then legaslators should have no fear.

Could it be that in some way you PGC supporters actually realize that the majority of hunters are unhappy and legislators also know that the majority are unhappy.

Think about it.

If this is so true, then how did license fees get to the price they are today?



Fishing license use to be about $8, so did hunting license. Look how much they are today.

I say let the PGC go bankrupt and let the DCNR take over.

I think they are denying reality, just like a few of our BOCers are denying reality. In communicating with our BOCers, 4 will say that they are hearing many complaints from hunters in 2G, and 2 will say that they have very few complaints. Somebody ain't exactly seeing the light one way or another.:s6:

It's kind of obvious that you've only become aware of the politics involved in a license increase recently. Hunting and fishing license increases have ALWAYS been a political hot potato. Wait, Maybe I shouldnt say always, but I can say for sure it's been that way for 50+ years. I wasnt around before that so I guess awlways is a long time.

If you think a big controversey over a license increase is a new thing, you havent been paying attention over the years.

Based on what I have been reading here in the last year or so, this is the scene that i would have expected:

It was for years lanse. I believe thats been explained. Go troll elsewhere.

With all the negative noise on this site you'da thunk we'd have had more than a dozen man march!

Dont know why youd think that?? I dont know of one person on this site that said they were going.

In fact its the opinion of many the meetings are a complete joke.

Just chalk it up as another blunder by slinsky to infer otherwise.

Cornie,

As a general rule of thumb, protests against widely unpopular policies intensify through time rather than diminish. If said policies are supposed to be having a continued detrimental effect, then it should be attracting new and fresh numbers of protestors.

Or, maybe lots of folks were just too busy grilling venison or driving to the taxidermist to pick up this season's mount to make the drive in for the meeting.:s5:

Yep, the rabble was really roused!! Just heard that JS the fearless leader showed up, saw the one short bus and the one van, hung around for a little while and left.

So, lets see, on here it's claimed that a vast majority is unhappy. A poll here even supports that. Of course we all know, mostly from the disgruntled, that this site has become the last hideout for those banned from other sites that dare to allow this subject to go on. Of course the all PA site which happens to have 3-4 times more participants online at any given time from one state than this one has from all 50, has an entirely different tone. The tone there is one of support for most of the current DMP. Not that there arent suggestions for improvement, but over there, folks dont claim the sky is falling.

When all the facts are added up, the massive dozen man march on Harrisburg shouldn't be a surprise after all!

Of course, i Guess one short bus and one van makes a total of two. Two or more allows plurals in a description so I guess the report could be stretched out to a claim of "busloads" if that were your agenda. It'll be interesting to see Jimmy the Slink's report on this one!

Yes, but thats only according to "the general thumb protest book according to Lanse" lol. Most can see the common sense in those being ignored no longer taking that route. Insanity is said to be doing the same over and over and expecting different results. In this case for hunters it would be doing things over and over and over and over... Hunters apparently dont fit that description in regards to politics. A decade is a long time to protest to the wrong people.

. "

He he he. Yeah thats it. Doing all that in between calls to legislators praising the pa deer plan, and asking for a fee increase, as well as a hefty pay raise for director Roe. :party:

So, Cornie if insanity is doing and saying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, then the Moderators here should have showed up at your house with the straightjacket long, long ago....:sad:

Statement made by a highly biased pgc supporter on hpa. Gotta be valid info! lol

Here, there, across pa.... Where isnt it said? Perhaps some unknown area of Pa as yet undiscovered.

Sounds like unbased attempt to discredit people. There are no more "banned" people here than on any other site. Users on hpa haved been banned on other sites, and people banned there and elsewhere frequent other sites... Such statements are nothing more than purposely Inflamatory and totally uncalled for. Address the issue. Youre trying to make it personal out of desparation. There are also "voters" here who are pgc employees as well as other antideer agency personell. Far higher rate than they represent within society. So dont give us that crap. If anything the rate of nonsupport would be even more than shown here. And thats backed by nonbiased LEGISLATOR POLLS. One of which i previously posted. Hpa polls dont even support you. The HUGE majority on ALL of the polls support CHANGE.

I agree. No surprise. And said so several times.

Btw, how many busses did it take to get the testifying supporters there? lmao. The same couple pgc insiders & pennfed.. Far fewer than the detractors. Didnt even need a "bus". Id say a mini cooper wouldve sufficed. lol

Lanse, nothing about that was accurate. I do nothing that fails over and over expecting other results. I post as i see fit, just as you do. Not expecting any "results" from my posting other than discussion and educating those not informed. IF those who matter see it swell. If not, thats all good too.

You simply want to flame again and again and it seem you just cant help yourself. You take a break for a week, let things simmer down, then back you come for more. You dont live here, dont hunt here, but have said how you love the controversy and arguing here, so agitate incessantly including personal attack on a consistent basis despite moderator warnings. Only shows your level of respect for other users and moderation.