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HOW...do we get the changes we need in PA?

Old 12-25-2009, 05:35 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by J Pike
glew the only problem is that we did not harvest 80% of our 1.5 year old bucks during any year. If you believe the PGC. #'s what do you think our buck to doe ratio was prior to AR? Pike
TEAM RED MIST? WTH is up with that Pike?
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:09 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by glew22
Doubt it. You can't claim herd health was good when you don't know what herd health is. In your eyes the herd may have been healthy, but that dosen't mean it was by definition.
Don't try to sell me your line of QDMA drivel. I know better. And it appears that in 2000, before this plan was fully implemented, that even the head biologist with the DCNR agreed with my assessment on herd health and habitat.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/polycomm...points0101.htm

DCNR Studies Gauging Health of Forests, Deer


Ice choked the slower waters of Pine Creek, snow squalls whipped through the stream valley, and gusting winds of an Arctic front were downing tree limbs everywhere. It was not a good day to be hunting deer in this stretch of Tioga State Forest.
But, says DCNR wildlife biologist Merlin Benner, you should have been here yesterday. Or, more precisely, Nov. 27 through the 29, when the state’s regular antlered deer season opened.
On those days, Benner and his Bureau of Forestry colleagues were kept busy checking and weighing deer: big deer, healthy deer. Bucks that sported 6- and 8-point sets of antlers and does whose size showed food was abundant.
But that was yesterday. Today, on the second day of the state’s antlerless deer season, Benner sat idle in his deer-check trailer not far from Lycoming-Tioga county line. Today weather would be the deer’s strongest ally, and Benner would have time to discuss what he and the Bureau of Forestry are trying to accomplish by staffing deer-check stations in both Tioga and Elk state forests.
Above Benner hangs a map delineating an 18,000-acre tract within Tioga State Forest. A combination of pins and other makings tell the biologist where forest regeneration is being monitored; where deer habitat is best and deer numbers highest; and, finally, where hunters are killing deer.
“We are keeping one eye on where forest vegetation is rebounding,” Benner said, “and another on deer densities. As a result, we are able to direct hunters to areas where their chances of seeing deer are good.”
The Tioga study and a similar one in the Quehanna Wild Area of Elk State Forest are supplying the Bureau of Forestry with invaluable data on what happens in a forest when deer multiply beyond a woodland’s carrying capacity. It also gives some hunters needed ingredients for success.
“Just about everyone who comes through these doors has been pleased with what they have seen in the Tioga tract,” Benner said. “One man stopped in on the third day of buck season, asked for some suggested areas, tried one, and came back with a beautiful eight-pointer.” Most of the deer weighed in this year have been large and well fed, the biologist said.
That was not always the case, Benner said. Too many deer took too great a toll on available browse and other foods in the Tioga State Forest tract. Too many deer, mostly protected does, were tilting a fragile balance, and the population in this study area plummeted.
“The equation for a healthy forest is a simple one,” the biologist said. “The more deer you have, the more have to be shot. If not, we will return to not so many years ago when the population collapsed because of too many animals and too little food.”
Successful hunters, most of whom are grateful to participate, are asked when and where they killed their deer. They then watch as Bureau of Forestry personnel weigh the animals, measure its girth and, if a buck, the spread and thickness of antlers. Finally, a tooth is extracted for aging.
The teeth and study data will be forwarded to the state Game Commission, whose Deer Management Section has stated a commitment to deer management policies that seek both a healthy deer herd and thriving forests rich in biodiversity. As the 2001 hunting season approaches next fall, hunters wishing to participate in the deer-check studies can receive details by telephoning Elk State Forest at (814) 486-3353, or Tioga State Forest at (570) 724-2868.

Last edited by ManySpurs; 12-26-2009 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:22 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by ManySpurs
You are slow to catch on aren't you? There are many, including myself, that are finding much less enjoyment in hunting due to overharvest and lack of deer. And it's happening in each and every state that has embraced the pitfalls of this modern day half arsed deer management. It's happened here, it's happened in Wisconsin, and Minnesota is next on the list. Guys like me, and we ARE in the majority, don't expect a deer behind each tree. We don't expect to see deer every time we hit the woods. We don't expect to see 40-50 deer a day. And we don't expect to walk 100 yards off the road to our favorite stump and kill a deer at 7:20am on opening day. What we DO expect, is a management plan that includes our interests along with all the other stakeholders interest. What we DO expect, is the tweaking we were promised when we were duped into supporting this failed deer management plan from the beginning. What we DO expect, is the realization from PGC biologists that we went far beyond the 50% reduction over a 10 year period and we want the adjustments made to help rectify the mistake. What we DO expect, is an Executive Director, when questioned by the HGFC concerning deer numbers to low to get kids interested in hunting, is to not suggest hunting squirrels instead of deer.

Now you may think that you are trying to impress one of those 2 day wonders that some of you people so eloquently speak of. That's not the case. Guys on this board know that I'm no slouch when it comes to getting around the Tioga State Forest, SGL 208 and parts of SGL 64. I have the time to devote and I see what's growing, and I see what's not growing. You may think that you are the only guy with trailcams out in your area of operations. You are not. My 3 trailcams verify what my eyes are seeing, and that is very few deer with very little gain in the regeneration department. And just about the time we think we see light at the end of the tunnel in the form of fawns born to the few does that exist, we get the door slammed shut on us by a disappearance of fawns by the end of August thanks to a bear management plan that is still in the Dark Ages. In other words, this deer management program is nothing more than a mad experiment gone wild that has failed. Period. And just for the record, I'm even running into more WCOs each season that totally agree with what the majority of us hunters are seeing. Supposedly we are in a "stabilization" mode. That's impossibe with no fawn recruitment and doe allocations remaining the same. We are losing ground each and every time an adult buck or doe gets taken out.

Now.....here's another newsflash....here in Tioga County, we were shooting prime, mature, healthy bucks long before some money grabbing seed selling entrepreneur discovered that he could dupe people into buying his products with a sales pitch called QDMA. For those in these parts that refused to pull the trigger on lesser bucks prior to the Alt Brainwashing Experiment, there were rewards at the end of the rainbow in the form of healthy, mature bucks that actually went into the winter with fat on their backs because they didn't have to cruise for mile after mile in search of estrous does. You look at the handful of mature, healthy bucks that are taken these days, and they are run ragged because they are cruising so much more and farther in search of estrous does.

So save the Dr Feel Good philosophy about "all that's important is that we are enjoying hunting", because many of us are not because we are busting our arses with very little return on the investment.
Your post rates a 10 on a 10 scale; boy did you certainly "nail it".

Last edited by yano; 12-26-2009 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:36 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by yano
Your post rates a 10 on a 10 scale; boy did you certainly "nail it".
Thanks Yano. It's high time to call an ace an ace and a spade a spade and run these BS'ing lying left wing liberal eco-terrorist bio-freak money mongering morons right off the face of the earth. If we don't take it back, we ain't never gonna get it back.

As far as I'm concerned, the line in the stand has been drawn and if they ain't with me, they ain't worth a dang.

Last edited by ManySpurs; 12-26-2009 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:52 AM
  #125  
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Rock on man ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCrmknqVOCE
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:41 AM
  #126  
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I'd like to pose this question.

Have you contacted your elected state senators and congressmen? I'd start making noise with them and bypass the GC all together.

JW
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:03 PM
  #127  
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Absolutely JW. Thats exactly what many of us have been doing for some time now. Our pressure has led directly to our legislators (house rep. game & fish committee) not granting pgc a license fee increase which they will need sooner or later or cease operating. So far they are calling the legislators bluff, even though they have claimed they desparately need that money....for several years now.

Our persistence has also led to some of our legislators to demand an audit of the program be done. WHile many of our legislators are avid hunters, we also have a few "greenies". Unfortunately there is a minority of legislators who are on the side of the environmentalists, who throw a monkey wrench into the efforts of the good legislators. Seeing no other way out, one of them (Levdansky) had taken the spoken of audit upon himself pretending to be an "ally" when most know he isnt... and a couple of other likeminded legislators and set up what basically looks like is gonna do nothing but rubber stamp the program. Many of the issues initially spoken of as problems the audit should address arent gonna be included, and also they picked a very pgc friendly outfit to do the audit. 2 previous high ranking pgc personell are involved. One is the chairman of the auditing companyWMI! And the other is on staff and will be in charge of the audit directly! SO basically what it looks like, is that you have the pa game commission auditing the Pa game commission.

It also appears the other legislative action....not granting the fee increase..is gonna hinge on the results of this sham audit. SO it appears pgc will once again be completely free to do whatever they please with OUR deer herd.

Alot of us are tired of being hosed, but there is no end in sight Im afraid.

Last edited by Cornelius08; 12-26-2009 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:56 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by JW!
I'd like to pose this question.

Have you contacted your elected state senators and congressmen? I'd start making noise with them and bypass the GC all together.

JW
Below is a list of the HGFC members that I've been writing to for the last 18 months. To date, I have received one reply back from Garth Everitt. That's it.

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Old 12-26-2009, 01:41 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by JW!
I'd like to pose this question.

Have you contacted your elected state senators and congressmen? I'd start making noise with them and bypass the GC all together.

JW
You betcha.

Next week I'm going to even go a tad further than that, a certain Federal Agency is going to be getting a phone. I suspect that phone call will end up about be about like whizzing in the wind, what won't be, will be the FOIA request I'll prolly end up sending after the holidays.

.

Last edited by yano; 12-26-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:53 PM
  #130  
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Good Idea - not getting answers from state go Federal too as your PAGC does get money from the Feds through the Pittman Robertson act and I bet a few other Federal sources.

So start contacting your Federal level offcials too...........

JW
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