Fall Deer Chronicle
 

The PGC finally released the Fall edition of the Deer Chronicles. Here is the link.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/p...7_20091123.pdf
If you want a good laugh read the section on," Are there No Deer Left in 2G" and don't miss the fast fact at the end where they say hunters account for 70% of deer mortality. That pretty much kills the theory that the habitat is controlling the herd.

You know nothing about 2G.The article was pretty much spot on.2G is a very steep and remote area.There are huge areas that see practically no pressure during the entire season.I hunted some remote areas around Sinnemahoning last year and never cut a boot print in the snow,despite the fat that there was snow cover since the beginning of Nov.I hunted three days in elk state forest and Moshannon state forest.I could have killed a buck each day and managed to fill 2 dmap tags by 10am on 2 of the three days.I saw no hunters or boot prints in Elk state forest and saw a grand total of 2 other hunters in Moshannon state forest.Thew last two weekends I scouted out new spots in Moshannon state forest that I never hunted before.I saw over a dozen deer last saturday including a 6 point that was easily over 18 inches wide.The week before,I saw a half dozen different deer in a new spot,including an almost pure white doe.I have to laugh when people whine and cry about the lack of deer in 2G.

Hunters may be accounting for 70% of the mortality in certain areas and in years with good weather.That doesn't account for the reduced fawn recruitment rate however.

Also notable on the very first page was that the original findings that 80% of 2G does survive the hunting season have been further supported by the continued research which was modified to account for the theory that hunters would be less likely to harvest collared deer.

Of course that 80% doe survival probably would be blown away if they followed Doug around :s4:

BTW Doug, whats the body count up to these days?


Also noteworthy is the piece about deer contraceptives. It's still basically an impractical tactic for now but it's probably just around the corner and unless hunters step up and harvest more does in areas like 2B, 2A most of the 5's etc it'll come on like a steam roller one day and further erode our percieved value to the non huniting masses.

Cant ignore the huge disparity between hunting pressure on public vs private land in 2G either. Our old buddy Sproul and our other hunting bretheren up that way are obviously accurate when they complain that the public ground up that way gets hit much harder....at least close to the roads.

How much has the fawn recruitment rate decreased since 2000?
How many more fawns would have been recruited if hunters didn't harvest 33K doe in 2G in just two years?

But you claimed 80% of the deer that died in 2G ,died from non-hunting mortality and you were dead wrong,as usual.

Furthermore, since you only need to harvest around 33% of the preseason deer in order to keep the herd stable , a harvest rate of 20% of the adult doe combined with the fawn harvest and the buck harvest would keep the herd stable in 2G. Therefore , hunters were harvesting al the deer available to be harvested on a sustainable basis in 2G.

I know one thing,the area I hunted bear in 2G has alot more coyotes then deer.Loads of acorns,fields with green growth including clover,clearcuts and plenty of cover.In my opinion the coyotes are killing quite a few fawns up there.Although in this particular area hunting does the job.I wouldn't hunt deer there if ya paid me.

Actually 80% was generous based on the results of the doe mortality studies at the time. The study actually indicated 92% and 85% in the first two years. The new information simply reinforces the gist of what the original studies concluded.

The deer chronicle statement was about all antlerless deer not just adult doe. The comparison you made is apples vs oranges.
Most folks I hear from up in 2G are saying that the herd has rebounded a little lately. That further supports the 20% claim in the chronicles. Therefore hunters are harvesting LESS than the amount of antlerless deer required to keep 2G stable.

btb, why on earth would pgc want to harvest more deer in 2A when the goal was stabilization and the herd is still being reduced? Remember its not an sra like 2b which you lumped together with 2a in your statement where human conflict is supposedly high due to urban areas etc... I guess that means you dont support the goals of stabilization or herd increase where deemed appropriate? That has been the goal, even if pgc hasnt been adhering to it, just like most other wmus where reduction ISNT supposed to be the goal, but is occurring anyway. To support statewide blanket slaughter even where pgc claimed its no longer necessary is a bit of an extremist view isnt it?

Doug says; "I have to laugh when people whine and cry about the lack of deer in 2G."

I have to laugh when a few support anything and everything said by pgc, and claim to love wmus with deer density averages around 10 when it could be and probably should be double that. Kinda speaks to "other" agendas. lol. To love killing doe as much as you to save the hobblebush and trillium would make you a prime candidate to work for whitebuffalo. You share many of the same views.

"Hunters may be accounting for 70% of the mortality in certain areas and in years with good weather."

No...I believe that would be in an AVERAGE year. Meaning with better than average weather MORE would be killed. Also since 70% were spoken of as an average, some areas would be lower as you stated, so others would be HIGHER as well to average it out.

"That doesn't account for the reduced fawn recruitment rate however."

Neither does the pgc annual reports which show deer reproductive herd health among the highest in the state.

I also like this double-talk from the deceitful jackass that always puts these chronicles together: First off the question is, are public lands overharvested as compared to private. One would think the answer only obvious, but NOOOO as with everything pgc has an explanation! lmao. Even though as usual its contradictory and full of holes.

"Living on public land did not necessarily mean a doe was more likely to be harvested by a hunter."Then they say this in the next sentences! lol:

" In WMU 2G, the harvest rate on private land was 4 to 6 times greater than on public lands. In WMU 4B, harvest rates on public lands were slightly higher than on private lands. "

Correct me if im mistaken but 4 to 6 times higher is higher, and "slightly higher" on the other is STILL HIGHER no? lol.

Unreal. Who authors this crap?? I see noone steps forward and signatures their work on these "chronicles". Wonder if the reason is because they are so proud of the content? lmao.

But it doesn't support your ridiculous claim that 80% of the deer that die in 2G die from non-hunting mortality.

Wrong again. All of the doe that were tagged trapped over the winter after hunting season,so all of the doe would be at least 1.5 years,which would make them adult doe. BTW ,the PGC says the herd is stable, not increasing.

:lolabove::lolabove::lolabove::lolabove::lolabove: :lolabove::lolabove:

Could you please explain how a fawn born in May and trapped in January managed to become 1.5 years old?

Yes, I could explain it quite easily, but if you had to ask the question ,you obviously wouldn't understand the answer!!!!

If you can't count the number of months on your fingers , also try using your toes!!!!

LOL

Duhh!! Let me spell it out for you! Fawn born in may and trapped in January.....

June 1 month old
July 2 months old
August 3 months old
september 4 months old
October 5 months old
November 6 months old
December 7 months old
January 8 months old

And we didnt even need any toes:sheep:

If you would have used your toes as I suggested , you would have added the 10 additional months that doe lived to it's first hunting season after it was trapped and tagged in Jan.:bash:.

And if you were more in tune with the research that was referenced you would realize that fawns were also trapped as early as newborn and their mortality studied as well.

So you took a statement about all antlerless deer and tried to selectively argue it's validity by citing information that was only about adult does.
The point stands that 80% of all antlerless deer in 2G survive the hunting season. Sorry if that information disappoints you.

So far I've killed one nice 8 point and 4 does and I did it hunting only saturdays and by taking off two afternoons during the week the entire season.The count will increase substantially over the next two weeks and ito the late season.

Over the years,I've disagreed with many of the PGC's decisions.I still don't agree with everything in the deer management plan but I do agree that the herd needed reduced and that the hunting is poor.Sorry,I meant not poor.

Nice job there buddy!! Aint it amazing how the harder you work at deer hunting, the luckier you get?

I am headed out Monday with my two sons with the rifles but dont really anticipate shooting anything. Their schedules have really kept their hunting time limited so my efforts will be directed toward helping them connect. Then it's a few more days in Illinois and the rest of the season and late season trying to tag a good buck with my bow. I actually look forward to late archery season and there are usually an amazing number of good bucks still out there at that time of year.

The fawns were trapped during the fawn mortality study. They were not part of the recent study on the mortality of adult doe.


Wrong again. You are the one that has been and still is misrepresenting the study.

It doesn't disappoint me at all since it is about what should be expected when the goal is to keep the herd stable.

Now there is a news flash!! Doug finally agrees that the hunting is poor!!!

You said it right their! Since I don't rifle hunt. If I don't score early archery,can't wait for the second season. I've taken my second biggest buck ever on Jan. 5, a 10 point 20 inch inside spread.

Yep. Lots of those running around. Before, during and after rifle season. lmao.

(for anyone not aware because maybe they live 1000 miles away from Pa, yes that was sarcasm) lol.

Why wait for late season BP? That bow works during rifle season. You can key on the pressure if you play cards right and a helluva lot more buck are still alive first day of rifle (or any time during rifle) compared to first day of late season.

Nice Greg!

My biggest PA archery buck came on the second Monday of rifle season. I've managed to have at least one quality shot opportunity at a pope and young class deer every late archery or rifle season for the last 6 years. Two of those were on the very last day and one on the next to last. Unfortunately I was without my buck tag for two but we closed the deal on the other one! The fact that most guys give up is part of what makes the hunting get good again. The bucks needs to put weight back on after the rut and they get very little pressure by that time. They become easy to pattern again. Certainly not a walk in the park but very doable and very rewarding.

Doesnt hurt to have off limits lands within an sra either. lol.

The same reason huge majority of record book entries come from the very limited land area that are the sras is the same reason why more buck are left post-season. No access which equates to protection from the deer management program.

Everywhere else there are VERY few legal buck still alive post rifle season. I didnt say "none" but pretty danged few. lol.

Our lack of "big buck state" status (about as far from it as possible to be) also points out exactly how many legal buck we carry over from one year to the next.

You are absolutely correct,but! It was thirty years ago I decided that I just didn't want to shoot a deer with a rifle anymore and didn't want to be in the woods with all the orange pumpkins.The area's I hunt are all public and not very big. Those last couple years that I did hunt,I used a flinltock. Had a couple bad experiences that made me say,that's it! No more rifle season. Like you Corn,I will still play beagle,guide,help field dress and process deer for my friends.Sometimes,even camp cook. I have no problem waiting until after Christmas if I didn't score in the early season.

Does he still live? Got any bruisers pinpointed for this years late season?
I've got the routines and core area of a dandy somewhat figured out but I've not hit that spot yet this year. It usually gets better after Christmas and I prefer to wait and strike when the odds are better for me and worse for him.

Oh yeah, fire up that scanner! I wanna see some of those bucks:party0005:

The last we heard of that buck was late January of this year. My buddy and I sat out trail cams in the area I got pictures of him last year. We got other deer but not him.
I posted a thread with the buck I got this season. In the thread, I stated seeing quite a few buck this season but no big boys. The one I shot was the biggest I seen. But right after the season.It was like all he!! broke loose. Went back in the area's the Monday after the season ended. All kind of new rubs and scrapes.Saw a big eight and a gorgeous ten point that pushed the twenty inch spread. So there is two that I know of if the don't get whacked in the next two weeks.Or poached. Believe me when I say this. A lot of outlawing goes on around me. Rotten SOB's.

Must've missed your thread while I was in the land of the giants. I'm goin lookin for it now.............

Land of the giants and some Freak Nasty,as one TV show likes to call them.

Not much to miss. Buck was your typical farm country 8pt. Since I harvested this deer in the last week of the season. The main objective of the thread was to encourage others that the season is not over until it's over. Just as camosteel and muzzyman showed by scoring on the last day.

Here is a classic example of PGC spin. Everything they sat is true,but it is also intentionally misleading and deceiving.

While it is true that 2G has the lowest harvest rates in the state,what they don't tell you is that 2G also has the lowest deer density in the state. It is also true that the hunters in 2G don't kill a high proportion of the PS herd, just like hunters in every other WMU. But, that statement is meaningless and misleading since the harvests in 2G reduced the herd in 6 of the seven years from 2001 to 2007.

PGC attempt to decieve someone? Naaa. Cant be. lmao.

There is only one person Ive ever seen lie more than pgc. And hes a pgc supporter.