Interview with Pa wmu 2A archery shop owner
09-18-2009, 06:53 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 2,621
We all watch those hunting shows on TV.
We all see those guys hunting down south on those well managed ranches in Texas. They see lots of bucks per day.
Many times the hunts we watch are to cull deer.
The funny thing is, we do the opposite of the ranchers in Texas. In Texas, they manage their deer herd for the best genetics. They cull the bucks with inferior genetics.
What do we consider a cull deer here in PA? That's right, we allow the bucks with inferior genetics to live and shoot the bucks that have the proper points per side.
We do it backwards here in PA.
If you have two bucks that are born at the same time here in PA, and one developes a four point rack his first year and the other developes an 8 point rack his first year, guess who gets shot?
If we repeat this scenerio over many years, what happens?
I do realize that there is more to antler developement than just genetics. But I also realize that if a buck developes an 8 point rack his first year and another buck only developes a 4 point rack and they live the same place, eat the same food, and are the same age, that the 8 point probably has better genes.
Just imagine if the PGC reversed the Antler Restrictions. Every buck with 3 or more points on a side were protected and only bucks with fewer points were fair game.
What would things be like here in PA then?
Wouldn't the health of the herd be better and genetics be better if the above scenerio were implemented?
We all see those guys hunting down south on those well managed ranches in Texas. They see lots of bucks per day.
Many times the hunts we watch are to cull deer.
The funny thing is, we do the opposite of the ranchers in Texas. In Texas, they manage their deer herd for the best genetics. They cull the bucks with inferior genetics.
What do we consider a cull deer here in PA? That's right, we allow the bucks with inferior genetics to live and shoot the bucks that have the proper points per side.
We do it backwards here in PA.
If you have two bucks that are born at the same time here in PA, and one developes a four point rack his first year and the other developes an 8 point rack his first year, guess who gets shot?
If we repeat this scenerio over many years, what happens?
I do realize that there is more to antler developement than just genetics. But I also realize that if a buck developes an 8 point rack his first year and another buck only developes a 4 point rack and they live the same place, eat the same food, and are the same age, that the 8 point probably has better genes.
Just imagine if the PGC reversed the Antler Restrictions. Every buck with 3 or more points on a side were protected and only bucks with fewer points were fair game.
What would things be like here in PA then?
Wouldn't the health of the herd be better and genetics be better if the above scenerio were implemented?
09-19-2009, 04:10 AM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
The sad part is the PGC ignored the harvest data from Miss. which showed rack sizes decreased, and relied on their computer models to justify ARs in PA. Actually the only reason Alt pushed for ARs was to get hunters to shoot more does, since the PGC didn't get the harvests they wanted in 2000 and 2001.
09-19-2009, 04:36 AM
#43
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central PA
Posts: 829
So on the subject of high grading....this great buck was taken in Pa last year on a managed property and weighed 315 pounds. It was at least 3.5 years old and had a spread of only 12 inches. Do you think this 315 pound buck was a genetic defect that made it past 3.5 years of age? Do you think this deer reached its full potential? I think so on both counts. Would you want this deer to be doing the breeding in your herd? What say you?
I work as a personal trainer at Gold's and that is the only reason I know this tidbit.. 3500 calories equates to one pound of body weight. This deer has had more than his share of the good life. Does the private land owner have pics of this buck from previous years? It is hard to age him because of the body size. He doesn't appear to be past his prime hence I would argue if someone said he was a 6 1/2 yr old on the downslide. His body is just too big and he seems to be very healthy. If I must age him I'd saymost likely 4 1/2 but no more than 5 1/2. The only way he'd be left to breed is if I was selling venison for a living.
Last edited by 4evrhtn; 09-19-2009 at 04:43 AM.
09-19-2009, 06:39 AM
#44
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
The sad part is the PGC ignored the harvest data from Miss. which showed rack sizes decreased, and relied on their computer models to justify ARs in PA. Actually the only reason Alt pushed for ARs was to get hunters to shoot more does, since the PGC didn't get the harvests they wanted in 2000 and 2001.
gary alt wanted us to shoot OLD doe.his reason was we found out later was that OLD doe are ones that have fawns or are better able to have 2 fawns .he made it look like he was trying to let younger doe live to grow old,that he lied and was not telling us truth on his reason for saying that.
09-19-2009, 06:41 AM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
First, holy crap that is a big bodied deer. I shot an 11 pointer last year that weighed 225 field dressed. This one here makes him look small. I believe he didn't possess the genetics needed to turn him into a booner- genetic deficiency not necessarily defect. I believe he would have retained this same rack without any other mentionable points until he passed his prime but he probably would have increased mass slightly but not enough to justify keeping him alive eating up all the other deer's food.
I work as a personal trainer at Gold's and that is the only reason I know this tidbit.. 3500 calories equates to one pound of body weight. This deer has had more than his share of the good life. Does the private land owner have pics of this buck from previous years? It is hard to age him because of the body size. He doesn't appear to be past his prime hence I would argue if someone said he was a 6 1/2 yr old on the downslide. His body is just too big and he seems to be very healthy. If I must age him I'd saymost likely 4 1/2 but no more than 5 1/2. The only way he'd be left to breed is if I was selling venison for a living.
I work as a personal trainer at Gold's and that is the only reason I know this tidbit.. 3500 calories equates to one pound of body weight. This deer has had more than his share of the good life. Does the private land owner have pics of this buck from previous years? It is hard to age him because of the body size. He doesn't appear to be past his prime hence I would argue if someone said he was a 6 1/2 yr old on the downslide. His body is just too big and he seems to be very healthy. If I must age him I'd saymost likely 4 1/2 but no more than 5 1/2. The only way he'd be left to breed is if I was selling venison for a living.
we have yet to find any bucks over 4 and 1/2 years old on sfl.most are 2 and 1/2 old
09-20-2009, 04:56 PM
#46
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
Good point sproulman. Pgc HEAVILY emphasized shooting mature doe. Used the excuse so we wouldnt shoot button bucks accidentally, when all along it is because mature doe are more successful at raising fawns and much more likely to have 2 or even 3 fawns.
Id guess that to be part of the reason our reproduction data has steadily declined for years now right along with the herd reduction, instead of the promised increase.
Id guess that to be part of the reason our reproduction data has steadily declined for years now right along with the herd reduction, instead of the promised increase.
09-21-2009, 04:53 AM
#47
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ohio,mid
Posts: 1,275
Pgc HEAVILY emphasized shooting mature doe. Used the excuse so we wouldnt shoot button bucks accidentally, when all along it is because mature doe are more successful at raising fawns and much more likely to have 2 or even 3 fawns.
Id guess that to be part of the reason our reproduction data has steadily declined for years now right along with the herd reduction, instead of the promised increase
Id guess that to be part of the reason our reproduction data has steadily declined for years now right along with the herd reduction, instead of the promised increase
09-21-2009, 06:05 AM
#48
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
this year i have deer as i did not allow doe hunting .the older doe that are 2 and 1/2 years old have 2 fawns with them.the doe that look like they are 1 and 1/2 old say up to 2 years have no fawns with them.i have 4 bucks and 8 doe on my property and 3 are fawns.
09-21-2009, 07:12 AM
#49
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 103
Can I ask a question? Why is it the PGC fault? We all have choices. Just because the have the doe tags available doesn't mean we have to shoot them off. Our hunting camp of 12 guys all buy an extra bonus tag. But we all donate that tag to the deer and let them walk. I guess my point is that if your not seeing the deer thats the hunters fault. 5 years ago our deer herd was thinned out. So we had a camp meeting and made some rules and eating the bonus tag was one of them. And the herd has came back 5 x better then 5 years ago. Matter of fact this year we have to take a couple more doe than usual.
As for the Antler Restr. its working alot more older bucks. I am a bow hunter mostly where the deer move because of the rut. But in rifle hunters have to move them and its not really happening anymore. IMO - Why people aren't moving the deer because of less and less of public hunting land is available to hunt. People are buying or leasing land and are sitting and not driving.
I could go on and on.....
As for the Antler Restr. its working alot more older bucks. I am a bow hunter mostly where the deer move because of the rut. But in rifle hunters have to move them and its not really happening anymore. IMO - Why people aren't moving the deer because of less and less of public hunting land is available to hunt. People are buying or leasing land and are sitting and not driving.
I could go on and on.....
09-21-2009, 08:00 AM
#50
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 103
Bucks dont usually hit prime until age 5....
So on the subject of high grading....this great buck was taken in Pa last year on a managed property and weighed 315 pounds. It was at least 3.5 years old and had a spread of only 12 inches. Do you think this 315 pound buck was a genetic defect that made it past 3.5 years of age? Do you think this deer reached its full potential? I think so on both counts. Would you want this deer to be doing the breeding in your herd? What say you?