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-   -   Whats wrong with the gamelands? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/296748-whats-wrong-gamelands.html)

bluebird2 06-30-2009 08:13 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
t isn’t even a question of the Game Commission allowing or not allowing more deer. The number of deer is determined by the ability of the food supply to sustain more or fewer deer day after day all year long and that is very flexible based on a multitude of variables within reality. That is how nature works. You nor the Game Commission can change that fact no matter what you are anyone else thinks should be happening.
That is about the most ignorant statement you have ever made. The DD goals the PGC used from 1980 to 2003 were based on 50% of the max. CC of forested habitat and that resulted in a statewide average of 21 DPFSM or 13 DPSM. If the herd was allowed to increase to the MSY carrying capacity of all the habitat ,most of the state would have well over 50 DPSM.

Screamin Steel 06-30-2009 08:59 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: DougE

ORIGINAL: Screamin Steel

ORIGINAL: R.S.B.

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Now you are just being silly ,because you can not provide one bit of evidence that shows SFLs have lower DDs than SGLs.

We both know that the biodiversity CC of northern hardwoods is only 8 DPSM and that 40 DPSM is the MSY CC. But in 2G where the herd is being managed at around 8-9 DPSM the forest health is still rated poor the the amount of regeneration is decreasing rather than increasing.

Actually you don’t know that at all and are doing nothing more then taking some EXTREMELY general information about a very few habitat and deer densities studies and trying to apply that on a large scale.

Your generalizations in the application of the limited subject research are simply not an accurate representation of reality within any of the various units of management.

In other words you simply have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. You are proving that wildlife and habitat management are simply beyond your capacity of knowledge and understanding.

R.S. Bodenhorn
LMAO, RSB!!!!! You just stole a page from the PGC's SOP manual on the HR fiasco and actually tried to use it on someone else! Take very general statements/ research from a few localized habitats and write an extermination order for deer statewide based on it. That was a beautiful synopsis of the PGC basis for HR and the current deer plan, and I actually couldn't have said it better myself. Much appreciated.;)Still LMAO!
OK,just a few localized habitats were negatively overbrowsed by deer.That there is funny.then again,it;s not surprising coming from a guy that expects a kid to be able to kill a buck every year on opening day by noon,most likely from the same stand as well.
Ah, you misquote me again, Mr Twister. I said "not unreasonable", not EXPECTED. The fact that many hundreds of PA hunters had faithful stands that produced year after year, I believe would define that as "reasonable." But I guess we should all remember that you for one, claimed that the hunting sucked in your areas during the 80's. Sorry you never learned to scout a productive stand site and take advantage of opening day hunter movement. Still miffed cause TBass went on your little tour and didn't buy into the garbage you preached at him?:(Should have tucked your pruning shears into your back pocket so you could create some better browse lines before hand.

DougE 06-30-2009 09:55 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
I haven't had to hunt for a buck on the first day of rifle season in over 17 years because I've killed a buck witha bow for the past 17 years strait.I'm pretty good onpicking stand sites.In fact,I'm so good that I haven't killed a deer from the same satnd in conseutives years since Iwas a kid.

What didn't he buy into and what was garbage.I showed him an exclosure that had a couple deer in it.Interestingly enough,every single oak seedling in that exclosure was browsed down.He took pictures to prove it.I also showed him an area with a low deer density that was cut on a high ridgtop.Not surprisingly,the regeneration was fantastic and proved that the deer numbers not the acid rain or soil conditions were the limiting factor.He took pictures to prove that as well.So tell me,why should I be miffed?EverythingI showed himhas backed up everything I've been saying for years.

R.S.B. 06-30-2009 10:44 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

t isn’t even a question of the Game Commission allowing or not allowing more deer. The number of deer is determined by the ability of the food supply to sustain more or fewer deer day after day all year long and that is very flexible based on a multitude of variables within reality. That is how nature works. You nor the Game Commission can change that fact no matter what you are anyone else thinks should be happening.
That is about the most ignorant statement you have ever made. The DD goals the PGC used from 1980 to 2003 were based on 50% of the max. CC of forested habitat and that resulted in a statewide average of 21 DPFSM or 13 DPSM. If the herd was allowed to increase to the MSY carrying capacity of all the habitat ,most of the state would have well over 50 DPSM.

The number of deer that should or could be available is just your opinion which obviously isn’t supported by the deer themselves.

The reason the Game Commission stopped using those old deer density estimates, as the management objective, was because they were nether accurate or reliable.

The deer and their habitat just keep proving how little you know about deer, deer food or how each affects the other. Thankfully we have professionals in this state that are a lot more in tone with how nature really works then what you are. Listening to people like you is what got things so messed up and out of balance and to the point we can’t support more deer then we have today.

We are on the road to recovery though provided the professionals can hold the people like you at bay so they can’t ruin even more of the state’s deer habitat.

R.S. Bodenhorn

bluebird2 06-30-2009 10:52 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Try again!!!

bawanajim 06-30-2009 02:49 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Try again!!!
Tomorrow is Wednesday, maybe if you eat all of your green beans they will take you for a short ride, if they do you might see a deer.[&:]

Enjoy it it might be your last.[:o]

bowtruck 06-30-2009 03:11 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
That may very well make his day.;)

bluebird2 06-30-2009 04:50 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

ORIGINAL: bawanajim

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Try again!!!
Tomorrow is Wednesday, maybe if you eat all of your green beans they will take you for a short ride, if they do you might see a deer.[&:]

Enjoy it it might be your last.[:o]
Obviously you don't know beans or you wouldn't make such a non sensical comment.:)

Screamin Steel 07-01-2009 01:50 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: DougE

I haven't had to hunt for a buck on the first day of rifle season in over 17 years because I've killed a buck witha bow for the past 17 years strait.I'm pretty good onpicking stand sites.In fact,I'm so good that I haven't killed a deer from the same satnd in conseutives years since Iwas a kid.

What didn't he buy into and what was garbage.I showed him an exclosure that had a couple deer in it.Interestingly enough,every single oak seedling in that exclosure was browsed down.He took pictures to prove it.I also showed him an area with a low deer density that was cut on a high ridgtop.Not surprisingly,the regeneration was fantastic and proved that the deer numbers not the acid rain or soil conditions were the limiting factor.He took pictures to prove that as well.So tell me,why should I be miffed?EverythingI showed himhas backed up everything I've been saying for years.
LMAO,...Toot, toot, toot!!!!! I believe you've got your panties in a bunch, because while you obviously showed him the exclosure with the exaggerated browsing impact due to the trapped deer inside, and a well drained ridgetop with adequate sunlight, you have been saying forever that if we would just go and look at the "devastation" with you some time we will all be believers. Well, our buddy just didn't want to put on the skirt and wave the pom poms after all, did he? Sorry to burst your bubble, there.:D And don't you find it the least bit ironic that a guy who claims a 17 year buck killing streak with his bow (Probably all on public land in 2g, with the lowest DD in the state, and never any time to hunt,I might add) thinks that bagging a deer before noon with a high powered rifle on opening day of firearms season from a good stand for a string of several years is unreasonable? Are you really that dense or is this your attempt at comedy?

DougE 07-01-2009 04:55 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
First of all Jake,When Ihadn't checked that exclosure out in about two years.It was a shelterwood cut and I wanted to show him exactly why they do it.the last time I was there,it was loaded with oak regeneration.Now,the little oak that is left,has been hedged almost to the ground.I'm not sure what yo think it shows but I know that it proves,the deer single handedly altered that area forever.That's exactly what happened all accross the northern tier.The pictures prove it and your misguided attempts to discredit me just make you look more clueless.The other pictures were ofanother shelterwood cut that was unfenced.It's coming back now because the dd is very low there.Interestingly,I also showed him some areasunder a closed canopy that were starting to devlop a nice mid level understory.He took pictures of those areas as well.I wonder why he didn't post them with a caption?You're not bursting my bubble chief.No one has been able to refute the validity of those pictures.The more you tried,the more foolish and clueless it became obvious you were.

Yes I do think it's unreasonable for any stand to produce year after year on opening day for several years.I adapt to the current conditions and that's why I'm successful and you continue to whine and cry about the lack of deer.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 05:13 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
The other pictures were of another shelterwood cut that was unfenced.It's coming back now because the dd is very low there.I
How do you know the DD was very low in that area? Did you do a pellet count or was the areas part of a FLIR survey? If not you are just guessing and really have no idea why that area regenerated . The fact is many areas have better regeneration with much higher DDs than other areas with lower deer DDs that also have lower regeneration. WMU 2F and 2G are a prime example. WMU 2F produced a harvest of 6,67 DPSM with 39% regeneration while 2G only produced a harvest of 3.84 DPSM, but regeneration decreased from 42% to 38%.Also 3A produced a harvest of 7.69 DPSM with a regeneration rate of 61 %. Therefore, there obviously is a direct correlation between DD and regeneration because there are numerous other variables that determine the rate of regeneration.

DougE 07-01-2009 05:51 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
That area was flown over in 2005 and DCNR does pellet counts every year.Last year I walked through thatarea with the district foresterand he claimed the owdd was between 8 and 10 based on that information.On top of that,that shelterwood cutwas on a ridgtop which is almost devoid of deer during the winter when most of the overbrowsing occurs.All I did was show the man an area where DCNR has been cutting without having to fence.

The habitat is coming back,no doubt about it.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 06:31 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
The habitat is coming back,no doubt about it.
But it will have no effect on how a our herd is managed as long as the herd is managed based on the regeneration rates.
That area was flown over in 2005 and DCNR does pellet counts every year
If the DCNR has the money and manpower to do pellet counts every year, they should use that money for fencing and allow the herd to increase.

DougE 07-01-2009 06:47 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Whatever,I don't work for DCNR.I'm simply pointing out that the habitat is definately starting to recover where the herd has been reduced.

DougE 07-01-2009 07:09 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

The habitat is coming back,no doubt about it.
But it will have no effect on how a our herd is managed as long as the herd is managed based on the regeneration rates.
That area was flown over in 2005 and DCNR does pellet counts every year
If the DCNR has the money and manpower to do pellet counts every year, they should use that money for fencing and allow the herd to increase.
Wow,you're actually starting to become dillusional.What would this large deer herd feed on if the cuts were fenced?You're starting to lose your mind.More deer at any cost.You guys want population estimates but then complain when they do them.

Screamin Steel 07-01-2009 07:21 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: DougE

First of all Jake,When Ihadn't checked that exclosure out in about two years.It was a shelterwood cut and I wanted to show him exactly why they do it.the last time I was there,it was loaded with oak regeneration.Now,the little oak that is left,has been hedged almost to the ground.I'm not sure what yo think it shows but I know that it proves,the deer single handedly altered that area forever.That's exactly what happened all accross the northern tier.The pictures prove it and your misguided attempts to discredit me just make you look more clueless.The other pictures were ofanother shelterwood cut that was unfenced.It's coming back now because the dd is very low there.Interestingly,I also showed him some areasunder a closed canopy that were starting to devlop a nice mid level understory.He took pictures of those areas as well.I wonder why he didn't post them with a caption?You're not bursting my bubble chief.No one has been able to refute the validity of those pictures.The more you tried,the more foolish and clueless it became obvious you were.

Yes I do think it's unreasonable for any stand to produce year after year on opening day for several years.I adapt to the current conditions and that's why I'm successful and you continue to whine and cry about the lack of deer.
You make it sound like such an impossible feat, when it is infinitely harder to accomplish your run of seventeen consecutive bucks with a bow on public land. Surely you aren't saying that archery is easier than a 30-06 are you? Maybe you rifle hunt differently than I do. I scout the topography, pinpoint the escape routes the deer are forced to travel, and evaluate the effects of the hunting pressure to determine deer movement.A far cry from my bowhunting strategies that focus around buck sign and changing food sources, and the onset of the rut. Opening day rifle hunting stands are based on one factor for me. Hunting pressure. Because all natural deer movement is going nocturnal in a hurry. Still not sure how you find consistent opening morning success so difficult, other than significantly fewer deer these days. I haven't failed to kill a deer in over twenty years, with one lone exception. However, I now aproach doe harvest very cautiously, deciding carefully each year whether I will take a doe from a particular area. I'm far from crying no deer, in fact I'm still killing deer. Of course, that fact is not an indicator of the deer program's success...(Go ahead say it, What are you complaining about?) I'm not self centered enough to entertain that my own successis representative of others. Ikill deer in SPITE of the PGC's efforts, not because of their deer program.But I can also see the glaring truth that this was never about deer or ecology, as much as timber and extreme environmentalists. The truth that you keep denying.

Screamin Steel 07-01-2009 07:25 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: DougE

That area was flown over in 2005 and DCNR does pellet counts every year.Last year I walked through thatarea with the district foresterand he claimed the owdd was between 8 and 10 based on that information.On top of that,that shelterwood cutwas on a ridgtop which is almost devoid of deer during the winter when most of the overbrowsing occurs.All I did was show the man an area where DCNR has been cutting without having to fence.

The habitat is coming back,no doubt about it.
Awsome. Now let's see a SERIOUS attempt at reducing antlerless allocations, and let these deer numbers get above 10 owdin alot of places. Aww, wait. Then we'd be back to overbrowsing again, soI guess we are going to see the low dd forever, to satisfy the big timber and birdwatchers. Guess we get hosed anyway you slice it.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 07:34 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Wow,you're actually starting to become dillusional.What would this large deer herd feed on if the cuts were fenced?You're starting to lose your mind.More deer at any cost.You guys want population estimates but then complain when they do them.
DCNR only controls around 1M acres that are managed for timber. At a 1% harvest rate they would harvest less than 16 SM /yr. or less than 100SM that would be fence at any given time. That would equal 0.2 % of the total land mass of the state so the deer would still have plenty to eat. Besides the MSY CC of northern hardwoods is 40 DPSM so if the herd was managed at 20 DPSM they would still have more than enough food to be quite healthy.

The DCNR did not include the results of pellet counts in the 2006 Browse study and claimed they were irrelevant ,so why do they do them?

DougE 07-01-2009 07:45 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: Screamin Steel

ORIGINAL: DougE

First of all Jake,When Ihadn't checked that exclosure out in about two years.It was a shelterwood cut and I wanted to show him exactly why they do it.the last time I was there,it was loaded with oak regeneration.Now,the little oak that is left,has been hedged almost to the ground.I'm not sure what yo think it shows but I know that it proves,the deer single handedly altered that area forever.That's exactly what happened all accross the northern tier.The pictures prove it and your misguided attempts to discredit me just make you look more clueless.The other pictures were ofanother shelterwood cut that was unfenced.It's coming back now because the dd is very low there.Interestingly,I also showed him some areasunder a closed canopy that were starting to devlop a nice mid level understory.He took pictures of those areas as well.I wonder why he didn't post them with a caption?You're not bursting my bubble chief.No one has been able to refute the validity of those pictures.The more you tried,the more foolish and clueless it became obvious you were.

Yes I do think it's unreasonable for any stand to produce year after year on opening day for several years.I adapt to the current conditions and that's why I'm successful and you continue to whine and cry about the lack of deer.
You make it sound like such an impossible feat, when it is infinitely harder to accomplish your run of seventeen consecutive bucks with a bow on public land. Surely you aren't saying that archery is easier than a 30-06 are you? Maybe you rifle hunt differently than I do. I scout the topography, pinpoint the escape routes the deer are forced to travel, and evaluate the effects of the hunting pressure to determine deer movement.A far cry from my bowhunting strategies that focus around buck sign and changing food sources, and the onset of the rut. Opening day rifle hunting stands are based on one factor for me. Hunting pressure. Because all natural deer movement is going nocturnal in a hurry. Still not sure how you find consistent opening morning success so difficult, other than significantly fewer deer these days. I haven't failed to kill a deer in over twenty years, with one lone exception. However, I now aproach doe harvest very cautiously, deciding carefully each year whether I will take a doe from a particular area. I'm far from crying no deer, in fact I'm still killing deer. Of course, that fact is not an indicator of the deer program's success...(Go ahead say it, What are you complaining about?) I'm not self centered enough to entertain that my own successis representative of others. Ikill deer in SPITE of the PGC's efforts, not because of their deer program.But I can also see the glaring truth that this was never about deer or ecology, as much as timber and extreme environmentalists. The truth that you keep denying.
Nope jake,I never said it was an impossible feat but it it's totaly unrealistic.When I did hunt bucks with a rifle,most of my kills were between 11:00am and 3:00pm and not always on the first day.I also never claimed archery was easier than rifle season either.Some years it takes me all six weks of archery season to kill a buck.Last year I killed a buck on the last thursday of october and the year before,I killed one on the last morning of the season.I'm not really sure what your point is.You really never have one.You want more deer.That's all there is to it and you don't give a rat's fat azz about the habitat.Even when the obvious is shoved in your face,you deny it and make up a bunch ofbaseless, nonsense to try and support your misguided and warped opinions.You are undeducated on these matters and simply don't have the knowledge or expeience to have a worthy debate.Remember,when youtried to claim that browse wasn't important to deer in Pa and cited a Study in friggin Texas to back up your poor misguided opinion.Texas for crying out loud.lol

DougE 07-01-2009 07:58 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: Screamin Steel

ORIGINAL: DougE

That area was flown over in 2005 and DCNR does pellet counts every year.Last year I walked through thatarea with the district foresterand he claimed the owdd was between 8 and 10 based on that information.On top of that,that shelterwood cutwas on a ridgtop which is almost devoid of deer during the winter when most of the overbrowsing occurs.All I did was show the man an area where DCNR has been cutting without having to fence.

The habitat is coming back,no doubt about it.
Awsome. Now let's see a SERIOUS attempt at reducing antlerless allocations, and let these deer numbers get above 10 owdin alot of places. Aww, wait. Then we'd be back to overbrowsing again, soI guess we are going to see the low dd forever, to satisfy the big timber and birdwatchers. Guess we get hosed anyway you slice it.
Why would anyone want to put the habitat back into the state it was before.You honestly don't care one bit about the habitat do you?You want easy hunting so you can be done by noon on the first day.

DougE 07-01-2009 08:00 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Wow,you're actually starting to become dillusional.What would this large deer herd feed on if the cuts were fenced?You're starting to lose your mind.More deer at any cost.You guys want population estimates but then complain when they do them.
DCNR only controls around 1M acres that are managed for timber. At a 1% harvest rate they would harvest less than 16 SM /yr. or less than 100SM that would be fence at any given time. That would equal 0.2 % of the total land mass of the state so the deer would still have plenty to eat. Besides the MSY CC of northern hardwoods is 40 DPSM so if the herd was managed at 20 DPSM they would still have more than enough food to be quite healthy.

The DCNR did not include the results of pellet counts in the 2006 Browse study and claimed they were irrelevant ,so why do they do them?
You'll have to ask them why they dop them?

It isn't just about the deer being healthy.It's about the deer continueing to dmage the habitat even more.20 DPSMis reasonable once the habitat recovers.Alot of areas have more than that now.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 08:26 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
It isn't just about the deer being healthy.It's about the deer continueing to dmage the habitat even more.20 DPSM is reasonable once the habitat recovers.Alot of areas have more than that now.
But it doesn't matter how much the habitat recovers the PGC will not allow the herd to increase to that density because 20 DPSM will adversely effect regeneration of commercially valuable timber species.

It never was about the deer being healthy because they were healthy when we had 1.6 M deer, in 2000.

DougE 07-01-2009 09:47 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
I'm willing to bet that very few people are actually hunting at local densities less than 20 dpsm.Heck on screamingsteel saw twenty some deer in one area on the first day of rifle season last year.Do think he saw every deer in that square mile?

bluebird2 07-01-2009 10:28 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
I'm willing to bet that very few people are actually hunting at local densities less than 20 dpsm
It's pretty sad that at this point in the discussion that you don't even realize the 20 DPSM we are talking about is the OWDD, not the PS DD!!

Furthermore the harvest rate in 2G does not reflect a PS herd anywhere close to 20 PS DPSM. In 2005 2G only had 12 PS DPSM and the 2008 harvest reflects a similar PS DD.

DougE 07-01-2009 10:42 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
It depends on where you hunt BT.If you go where there's thousands of acres of mature forest with an overbrowsed understory with nothing but ferns,you'll have a low harvest rate.Conversley,if you find an areas with ufficient food and cover,you'll find plenty of deer.How do I know?I do it very year and I hunt different or knewplaces every year.Unfortunately,too many areas of the state have overbrowsed understories and poor habitat.It's funny though,the more overbrowsed the areas and the further guys can see,the harder they get hit.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 11:21 AM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Once again it is all about you and your success. You care nothing about the thousands of other hunters that go without a deer because 8 OW DPSM only produces a sustainable harvest of less than 4 DPSM. It wouldn't matter if all of the hunters in 2 G concentrated in the areas with good browse and understory , 2G will still only produce a harvest of less than 4 DPSM!!!

Apparently even the simplest concept like that escapes you.

bawanajim 07-01-2009 12:24 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Once again it is all about you and your success. You care nothing about the thousands of other hunters that go without a deer because 8 OW DPSM only produces a sustainable harvest of less than 4 DPSM. It wouldn't matter if all of the hunters in 2 G concentrated in the areas with good browse and understory , 2G will still only produce a harvest of less than 4 DPSM!!!

Apparently even the simplest concept like that escapes you.
So as far as simple concepts go,hows this?

Since the states hunters are to dumb to hunt where deer live , we will over populate our Fields and streams with deer so that those to dumb to hunt successfully today will be better suited to hunt tomorrows starving deer from our barren woodlands. Great Idea there Larry.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 12:47 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
I guess we can add you to the long list of those that can't understand simple concepts. Our deer weren't starving when we had 1.6M PSD , in fact they were healthier and more productive than they are today and our streams weren't overpopulated with deer as you just claimed.
we will over populate our Fields and streams with deer so that those to dumb to hunt successfully today will be better suited to hunt tomorrows starving deer from our barren woodlands. Great Idea there Larry.
It is you that has been blaming hunters for being to osuccessful at harvesting deer and now you are blaming them for being too dumb to hunt in the right areas. Make up your mind if you have one!!!

DougE 07-01-2009 01:15 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
You are losing it.How could the deer possibly have been healthier then?

DougE 07-01-2009 01:16 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Once again it is all about you and your success. You care nothing about the thousands of other hunters that go without a deer because 8 OW DPSM only produces a sustainable harvest of less than 4 DPSM. It wouldn't matter if all of the hunters in 2 G concentrated in the areas with good browse and understory , 2G will still only produce a harvest of less than 4 DPSM!!!

Apparently even the simplest concept like that escapes you.
I make my own success by hunting where deer should actually be.I don't expect an even number of deer spread out accross the landscape.That's a pretty simple concept that obviously escapes you.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 01:35 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
I make my own success by hunting where deer should actually be.I don't expect an even number of deer spread out accross the landscape.That's a pretty simple concept that obviously escapes you.
No that concept does not escape me , but it is the typical attitude of a self centered hunter who thinks because he can do it every hunter in 2G should be able to do it. They are so self centered that they can't accept the fact that there is a limited number of deer available to be harvested and that the fewer OWD we have the fewer hunters can be successful no matter how hard or how smart they hunt.

You base your support of the plan on your own success while I base my critique of the plan on the success rate for all hunters and because the plan it is not based on the best science available.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 01:39 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

ORIGINAL: DougE

You are losing it.How could the deer possibly have been healthier then?
In 2000 breeding rates were higher ,productivity was high and recruitment was much higher in 2000 than in 2007. Therefore, based on the PGC criteria for determining herd health, the herd was healthier when we had 1.6M PSD.

bawanajim 07-01-2009 01:45 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

ORIGINAL: DougE

You are losing it.How could the deer possibly have been healthier then?
In 2000 breeding rates were higher ,productivity was high and recruitment was much higher in 2000 than in 2007. Therefore, based on the PGC criteria for determining herd health, the herd was healthier when we had 1.6M PSD.
Just how many time has your alter ego stated that we never had 1.6 million deer.[8D]

DougE 07-01-2009 01:50 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
I have less time to hunt than the vast majority of people,especially those with camps.Most people with camps up here use vacation time to hunt.I don't.The only days I take off to hunt all year is the first day of bear and the first day of deer.If I can do it,anyone else should be able to as well.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 01:50 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Just how many time has your alter ego stated that we never had 1.6 million deer.
A lot less than the number of times RSB has lied about the history of our herd!!

BTW,everyone is entitled to their opinion ,even if tey are dead wrong like you.

DougE 07-01-2009 01:55 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

ORIGINAL: DougE

You are losing it.How could the deer possibly have been healthier then?
In 2000 breeding rates were higher ,productivity was high and recruitment was much higher in 2000 than in 2007. Therefore, based on the PGC criteria for determining herd health, the herd was healthier when we had 1.6M PSD.
So how on earth could the herd get more unhealthy as there's more food?Nevermind,I'll answer it for you.It can't

Your spinning is going around in circles.On numerous occassions I've herd you say that you figured the breeding rates were declining because you felt that the felt the older age does where getting shot.Now,when it's convenient to use the PGC stats to your advatage,you say the herd is unhealthy.

It's impossible and you know it.The numbers show what they show because the sample size is statistically insignificant.

bluebird2 07-01-2009 02:38 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Your spinning is going around in circles.On numerous occassions I've herd you say that you figured the breeding rates were declining because you felt that the felt the older age does where getting shot.Now,when it's convenient to use the PGC stats to your advatage,you say the herd is unhealthy.
I did not say the herd was unhealthy. What I said is that herd health decreased from 2000 to 2007 based on the criteria the PGC uses to establish herd health. I still believe that breeding rates and productivity declined because we reduced the average age of the female herd by shooting more adult doe.

The PGC established the criteria for determining herd health, not me. What criteria would you suggest the PGC use for determining herd health and how would you suggest they collect enough data to determine herd health?

bowtruck 07-01-2009 03:22 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
yep i was sleeply last night:D

fellas2 07-01-2009 04:47 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
DougE,to make the statement that "if I can do it everybody should be able to " is about as dumb a statement as you ever made.It's like saying if I can hit a golf ball 300 yards,everybody should be able to.To make comparisons with your own abilities to a million other hunter in this state is assinine at best !

bawanajim 07-01-2009 06:32 PM
RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 
Their deer for god sake, not ghosts, I can't for the life of me believe on any given day you can't kill a doe?[&:]


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