Are we losing sight?
07-01-2009, 05:51 AM
#93
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: Are we losing sight?
"So from here on out its apocalypse now for the deer, Larry says so and the debate is over.
Not another word, shut the hell up, its over ,beenthere done that and its over with"
Jim you must be reading somthing else, because from what is written here, RSB is the one claiming apolcalypse for the deer. Its him saying the deer herd and habitat is so devastated that they are controlling their own numbers unable to get ahead via natural reproduction! LMAO.
Thats absolutely ridiculous and complete nonsense. Its clearly an attempt to support a failed deer plan so that we have a few more tweety birds and great stuff like more hobblebush trillium and completely unnatural levels of other stupid things that extremist audubon jokers lust for.
Not another word, shut the hell up, its over ,beenthere done that and its over with"
Jim you must be reading somthing else, because from what is written here, RSB is the one claiming apolcalypse for the deer. Its him saying the deer herd and habitat is so devastated that they are controlling their own numbers unable to get ahead via natural reproduction! LMAO.
Thats absolutely ridiculous and complete nonsense. Its clearly an attempt to support a failed deer plan so that we have a few more tweety birds and great stuff like more hobblebush trillium and completely unnatural levels of other stupid things that extremist audubon jokers lust for.
12-12-2009, 08:55 AM
#94
Fork Horn
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 115
Not trying to dig up old bones here but after doing a search on "pennsylvania" I ran across this thread. I thought it might be interesting to read and it certainly was. I have to say that I agree with both sides of the deer debate to some degree. I too enjoy just being out there in the woods at times. Some days I really don't care if I see a deer or not. But, from my experience, those days are happening far too often to make hunting as enjoyable for me as it was in "the good old days". My experiences over the past three seasons have made me question exactly what it is that the PGC is trying to accomplish. I was lucky enough this year to see a few nice bucks, but only during the early archery season and most of those were during the last two weeks of the season, during what was arguably the peak of the rut. I just never had any good shot opportunities while hunting with my Mathews Switchback compound. I hunted a total of nineteen days during the early archery season and saw maybe five bucks that I considered "shooters" and passed on a few smaller, legal bucks. Oh yeah, I saw deer in the fields after dark with a spotlight during Thanksgiving weekend and a couple of those were decent bucks as well. But, during the regular firearms season, and today is actually the last day of that season, I have not seen one legal buck, not one! I hunted the first six days of the season from sunup to sunset. I only came in for lunch one day due to the high winds that day. I should mention that I hunt in WMU 2E which has a three points on one side antler restriction. Last year I was fortunate enough to harvest an eight point during the early archery season. The year before I did not fill my buck tag because I never got a shot during the archery season and I did not see a legal buck during the two week firearms season that year either, and I hunted ten solid days. I should also mention that I live in Ohio now but spent my first thirty-two years in my beloved PA, Clearfield County to be exact. I don't apply for an antlerless tag because I just don't need the meat that badly and, as I see it, there are plenty of others who apparently do.
From my recent experiences I have come to the conclusion that in at least some parts of PA the regular firearms season has become a two-week long doe and button buck season. During the first six days of this year's gun season I saw approximately 33 deer, two of which were spikes and one of those had one side broken off. That's it, the rest were all does or button bucks!
While I am no biologist my recent experiences also lead me to believe that the few legal bucks that do remain in the PA herd are of an age class that basically goes nocturnal after the peak of the rut. So unless you participate in deer drives your chances of actually seeing one during legal shooting hours are very low. As I mentioned before, today is the last day of PA's regular firearms deer season and I am sitting here typing on my computer instead of out there hunting. Why is that? Because I have come to the conclusion that it was not worth the effort to go hunting. And that is pretty amazing for someone like me. I have also spent time today researching crossbows which is something I never thought I would do either. But I have decided that if I really want to have the best possible chance to fill my buck tag during archery season I am going to need all the advantage I can get, and that comes from someone who has taken several bucks with a compound. I might also add that I spend a lot more money on my hunting license and various tags than residents do but I am still willing to try even though I see my chances for success dwindling year after year.
The PGC states that they would still be losing license sales even if there were more deer. I suppose there is some truth to that but the fact is that if you are trying to sell a product your customer must have a reasonable expectation of getting something for his money or you will lose sales. Simple business 101. If all you want is the experience I suppose you are happy but I also have to consider the fact that during two of the last three seasons when I hunted the regular firearms season I could not say that I had a reasonable expectation of success.
One other thought before I go...I have heard others ask the question...since when did Pennsylvania become a trophy state? Well, I guess I am wondering the same thing. Before people go accusing me of being a trophy hunter just let me say that once archery season is over my standards usually drop considerably, especially if I want any chance of filling my tag. My observation is that, at least in the part of the state where I have hunted for over forty years, the habitat and genetics will never produce large numbers of true trophy class bucks. Oh sure, there will be a few nice bucks taken every year. But guess what, there were back in "the good old days" too. The difference is that now there are far fewer average bucks that most hunters were perfectly satisfied to have had a chance to harvest in the past and far fewer deer overall.
From my recent experiences I have come to the conclusion that in at least some parts of PA the regular firearms season has become a two-week long doe and button buck season. During the first six days of this year's gun season I saw approximately 33 deer, two of which were spikes and one of those had one side broken off. That's it, the rest were all does or button bucks!
While I am no biologist my recent experiences also lead me to believe that the few legal bucks that do remain in the PA herd are of an age class that basically goes nocturnal after the peak of the rut. So unless you participate in deer drives your chances of actually seeing one during legal shooting hours are very low. As I mentioned before, today is the last day of PA's regular firearms deer season and I am sitting here typing on my computer instead of out there hunting. Why is that? Because I have come to the conclusion that it was not worth the effort to go hunting. And that is pretty amazing for someone like me. I have also spent time today researching crossbows which is something I never thought I would do either. But I have decided that if I really want to have the best possible chance to fill my buck tag during archery season I am going to need all the advantage I can get, and that comes from someone who has taken several bucks with a compound. I might also add that I spend a lot more money on my hunting license and various tags than residents do but I am still willing to try even though I see my chances for success dwindling year after year.
The PGC states that they would still be losing license sales even if there were more deer. I suppose there is some truth to that but the fact is that if you are trying to sell a product your customer must have a reasonable expectation of getting something for his money or you will lose sales. Simple business 101. If all you want is the experience I suppose you are happy but I also have to consider the fact that during two of the last three seasons when I hunted the regular firearms season I could not say that I had a reasonable expectation of success.
One other thought before I go...I have heard others ask the question...since when did Pennsylvania become a trophy state? Well, I guess I am wondering the same thing. Before people go accusing me of being a trophy hunter just let me say that once archery season is over my standards usually drop considerably, especially if I want any chance of filling my tag. My observation is that, at least in the part of the state where I have hunted for over forty years, the habitat and genetics will never produce large numbers of true trophy class bucks. Oh sure, there will be a few nice bucks taken every year. But guess what, there were back in "the good old days" too. The difference is that now there are far fewer average bucks that most hunters were perfectly satisfied to have had a chance to harvest in the past and far fewer deer overall.
12-12-2009, 01:32 PM
#95
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"The PGC states that they would still be losing license sales even if there were more deer."
Pgc "states" alot of things and arent very particular about exacting accuracy when doing so. Its all about 'damage control' these days. Would we still be losing hunters with responsible management & reasonable herd levels?? maybe..maybe not. But certainly not at the rate you are when hunters are at an all time high level of dissatisfaction in the state and many saying that is exactly why they quit or are thinking about it! There are many reasons why hunters might quit. Though the failed plan is one more to add to the list, and a huge one.
In a state with previously well over a million huntes and as strong a hunting tradition as anywhere in the nation, in no way should we have been dropping hunter numbers at the same rate as "elsewhere", however not only did we do that, but during the key "management" years of 2001 to 2006 we hemmorhaged hunters at OVER DOUBLE the national average of hunter rate of decline. The national average between those years was 4% according to usfw and according to pgc license sales our decline was about 10%!!
Listen to pgc address hunter decline is laughable at best. See rosenberry explain it away by grouping our license sales from way back in the early 80's till now then comparing to nationwide... If anyone cannot immediately recognize the intent to decieve by doing that, they are wearing blinders. The 80's and 90's werent the problem hunters are complaining about. Its the failed deer plan years.
Gee I guess the brilliant brilliant gifted scientist cant figure out that we didnt have our failed deer plan in the 80's and that the only years that should be compared are from current plan when speaking of numbers lost DUE to that CURRENT PLAN. lmao. Hunters are complaining of numbers lost due to the herd devastation, not the high deer years of the 90's!! So pgc, dont blow smoke up our butts and tell us we are wrong about things and offer up "proof" against things that arent even our actual positions or even close!
Unreal.
Pgc "states" alot of things and arent very particular about exacting accuracy when doing so. Its all about 'damage control' these days. Would we still be losing hunters with responsible management & reasonable herd levels?? maybe..maybe not. But certainly not at the rate you are when hunters are at an all time high level of dissatisfaction in the state and many saying that is exactly why they quit or are thinking about it! There are many reasons why hunters might quit. Though the failed plan is one more to add to the list, and a huge one.
In a state with previously well over a million huntes and as strong a hunting tradition as anywhere in the nation, in no way should we have been dropping hunter numbers at the same rate as "elsewhere", however not only did we do that, but during the key "management" years of 2001 to 2006 we hemmorhaged hunters at OVER DOUBLE the national average of hunter rate of decline. The national average between those years was 4% according to usfw and according to pgc license sales our decline was about 10%!!
Listen to pgc address hunter decline is laughable at best. See rosenberry explain it away by grouping our license sales from way back in the early 80's till now then comparing to nationwide... If anyone cannot immediately recognize the intent to decieve by doing that, they are wearing blinders. The 80's and 90's werent the problem hunters are complaining about. Its the failed deer plan years.
Gee I guess the brilliant brilliant gifted scientist cant figure out that we didnt have our failed deer plan in the 80's and that the only years that should be compared are from current plan when speaking of numbers lost DUE to that CURRENT PLAN. lmao. Hunters are complaining of numbers lost due to the herd devastation, not the high deer years of the 90's!! So pgc, dont blow smoke up our butts and tell us we are wrong about things and offer up "proof" against things that arent even our actual positions or even close!
Unreal.
Last edited by Cornelius08; 12-12-2009 at 01:42 PM.
12-12-2009, 01:52 PM
#96
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 2G Gaines Pa
Posts: 524
Gee I guess the brilliant brilliant gifted scientist cant figure out that we didnt have our failed deer plan in the 80's and that the only years that should be compared are from current plan when speaking of numbers lost DUE to that CURRENT PLAN. lmao. Hunters are complaining of numbers lost due to the herd devastation, not the high deer years of the 90's!! So pgc, dont blow smoke up our butts and tell us we are wrong about things and offer up "proof" against things that arent even our actual positions or even close!
12-12-2009, 03:50 PM
#97
Fork Horn
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 115
I suppose a few folks here still subscribe to the Game News? Unfortunately I was stupid enough to take a multi-year subscription and mine won't expire until Sept of 2011. I guess it's good for a few laughs. As my brother says it has become just another propaganda tool for the PGC. Amazing how every deer article praises and/or defends the PGC's management program. Good grief.
One of the things that amazes me the most is how the locals where I hunt blame coyotes for the low deer numbers. I spent a considerable amount of time in the woods this season, far more than most of the locals, and I did not see, hear or smell even one coyote this season. As a matter of fact I don't even recall seeing any tracks or even a pile of crap. I think the coyotes are smarter than we are. When there is no game they go somewhere else. When I suggest that it just might be all the extra seasons and high antlerless permit allocations the locals look at me like I'm from another planet. Then again, most of them have no problem filling as many doe tags as they can get their hands on. I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies. I don't even bother applying for an antlerless permit but I may just start so I can set fire to at least one.
One of the things that amazes me the most is how the locals where I hunt blame coyotes for the low deer numbers. I spent a considerable amount of time in the woods this season, far more than most of the locals, and I did not see, hear or smell even one coyote this season. As a matter of fact I don't even recall seeing any tracks or even a pile of crap. I think the coyotes are smarter than we are. When there is no game they go somewhere else. When I suggest that it just might be all the extra seasons and high antlerless permit allocations the locals look at me like I'm from another planet. Then again, most of them have no problem filling as many doe tags as they can get their hands on. I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies. I don't even bother applying for an antlerless permit but I may just start so I can set fire to at least one.
Last edited by blksn8k; 12-12-2009 at 03:54 PM.
12-12-2009, 05:18 PM
#98
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
I wouldnt give pgc another nickel more than that which i have to to legally hunt. No Game News for me. I do skim through them quickly once in a blue moon when looking for some reading material on the new stands just for a good laugh & to satisfy curiousity. Some of the content is absolutely sickening to see attempts at deceit such as that which I spoke of above etc. Also not particularly interested in all the bird watcher environmentalist articles. Those groups have caused enough trouble with our sport as far as im concerned, reading about them serves no purpose unless you are constipated and sitting atop the porcelain throne imho.
Pennsylvania outdoor news seems to be a pretty unbiased objective source for Pa new & game commission issues etc.
Pennsylvania outdoor news seems to be a pretty unbiased objective source for Pa new & game commission issues etc.
12-12-2009, 05:31 PM
#99
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 2G Gaines Pa
Posts: 524
Pennsylvania outdoor news seems to be a pretty unbiased objective source for Pa new & game commission issues etc.
BTW....I stopped buying the PGN when they discontinued the "Days Of 'Yore" column on the back page way back when. Wife picked up a copy off the magazine rack at the local grocery store a few months back. What a waste of money.
