RE: Will The Audit Include
 

Confucius Says

RE: Will The Audit Include
 

So when he died ,did he think that was bad or good ? Are fewer deer and lower harvests good or bad?

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I think what confuscious is saying, is that while Pa hunting is poor each year, it could be considered good when compared to each coming year. Meaning when in the future, we look back after 10 years of decline, on this past year, it will look less putrid than it does now by comparison. :D


However, I dont really see that as a "good" thing. LOL.

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I certainly hope things dont go downhill for 10 years .
Hopefully the audit includes as necessary info and they do a good job.

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The audit will not require that the PGC change anything. It will just review the existing plan and determine if the PGC estimates are . Since there are no mandates that the PGC follow any changes that may be recommended by the audit, they is no reason to believe the audit will change anything except getting the license fee increase.

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Bowtruck, it really doesnt need to go downhill for 10 years to be bad. There are few if any places in the state that have as many deer as could be or should be had, and some areas, many of the worst, are about as bottomed out as they can get deer density wise.

I dont suspect that the very worst areas of this state will get any worse...not sure if its currently possible. But everywhere else has room for further unneccessary degradation to the deer herd, and its happening at a steady pace in many if not most areas according to pgc annual reports.

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I do know way to many hunters who have that attituide and they do take offense to that comment. I just tell them , You were not complaining when you bought every doe tag you could get your hands on and was stuffing your freezers full of meat. what did you think was going to happen when you were killing off the child bearers. I do realize peoples legitconcerns about the deer population, thats why I don't shoot does, they should follow suit. I went six years with out killing a deer until the nice buck last year, and I enjoyed every minute I was out there for those six years. I guess I just have a different attutide towards hunting than most hunters.

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"I do know way to many hunters who have that attituide and they do take offense to that comment. I just tell them , You were not complaining when you bought every doe tag you could get your hands on and was stuffing your freezers full of meat. what did you think was going to happen when you were killing off the child bearers. I do realize peoples legit concerns about the deer population, thats why I don't shoot does, they should follow suit. I went six years with out killing a deer until the nice buck last year, and I enjoyed every minute I was out there for those six years. I guess I just have a different attutide towards hunting than most hunters."

I agree with many being "hypocrites". But many of us are not. I have had no intention of killing a doe for years, nor do I expect to soon. I kill my buck every year with my bow and wait until some time in the future when the herd may be more conducive in my opinion to more doe harvest before I will once again take up the flinter and shoot a doe or two late season, as Id always enjoyed doing with family members years past. Aside from a couple of buds young kids, none of my family or hunting partners shoot doe.

Also worthy of consideration is the fact that even if half of us had no intention of buying or using a doe tag, with 900,000 hunters, if less than half intended to shoot doe, or kill as many doe as they have tags for, that is still more than many other states total hunter numbers at 450,000.

Just as pgc understood everyone wasnt going to voluntarily refrain from shooting 75%+ of our yearling buck so they implemented antler restrictions...so it is with the doe harvest. If its legal to kill doe indiscriminantly guys will do it until it is responsibly and legally curtailed.

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I am not a big fan of the PGCs deer program. Hunting aside, back in the late 90s with the deer population explosion, it was hell driving at night dodging deer. We did need some kind of herd reduction.

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Agreed. But I and many others believe its been taken to extremes.

And also, despite claims of reduction having been accomplished and the new goal supposedly "stabilization" , that goal is not a truthful claim. Where "reduction" is no longer the goal (supposedly pretty much everywhere but the sras for last 4 years) the annual reports show a much different story, with much continued reduction through the majority of wmus within those last 4 years. Ive also often pointed out particular wmus having more tags now even with goal of supposed stabilization than they did when they had a larger herd and reduction was the goal. Also, having higher stated harvest goals than the antlerless harvests used to REDUCE the LARGER herd. Thats bs. If thats not pointed out in an audit, then its a sham. This is rediculous, its blatant, its insulting to our intelligence and its a slap in the face to the hunters of this state for this to be going on. Will an audit point this out or solve our problems? I really sincerely doubt it. Especially given the powerful players involved and the circumstances and ties between the auditor and auditee.

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Whatever your position on deer management might be BTB is right . There is no sense in getting bent out of shape until you have the results of the audit. You never know, they might hear your point of view. If not, buy a doe tag and burn it. One club told their members not to even buy a doe tag for their land. they created a 10 acre saftey zone for deer and anyone caught pushing will get kicked off. I hunt a 10 acre strip between Lehigh Gorge and a development. There are two does that hang out there during the season. We go out of our way to keep them alive because those big old bucks can't sniff them out and breed them if they are dead.

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BTB, it's not so much the fact that WMI has worked with PGC before....It's the work itself. They helped draft the current deer plan! In effect we are asking them to audit their own work! Next time you are up for a raise, give yourself your own performance evaluation. Trust me...you will love the outcome! As for the USP president sanctioning the audit, I could care a less. At this point, and with such limited options, their back is against the wall. They are merely pi$$ing into the wind hoping for a miracle. Again,I urge the sportsmen of PA to personally contact WMI via the links I posted earlier, flood them with calls and emails and make our wishes known in regards to the audit. Ask them the hard questions that the PGC refuses to answer and demand their attention. It's all we can do at this point.

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Some good points SS. Though I really doubt wmi will even take into consideration the voice of individuals in the matters. They were hired by the legislators and thats pretty much all they will most likely answer to. Best bet imho would be to contact Staback or one of the others who will be "overseeing" the audit. I wouldnt bother with Levdansky though. He is no friend of the hunter.

Pats says: "Whatever your position on deer management might be BTB is right . There is no sense in getting bent out of shape until you have the results of the audit."

Pats, while you may be right, we shouldnt get "bent out of shape", btb isnt nor has he ever been right about anything that im aware of. (LOL) He contends that i shouldnt even be pointing out the clear bias because it isnt so. Thats bull****! (LOL) You may be right about shouldnt get bent out of shape, but not because the audit isnt biased. Its because there is nothing that can be done to stop it at this point anyway and it is going through.

But not shooting does and not putting on drives are things ive done all along and will continue to do, as you mention, but its far from a substitute for proper management practice that our gameless commission should be using.

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Basicly these hunting clubs for the time being are doing their own deer management. they do put on drives on club property, just not in the deer sanctuary they created on their property.

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Awesome response Cornelius,,,you can speak for me anytime,,,glad i took the time to read all posts

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Some hunters think that DCNR only wants to reduce the herd in areas where they intend to make a cut. But the SCS audit requires that DCNR use DMAP tags to reduce the herd in old growth stands and bioreserve areas. Those areas are over 50% of BOF land and the biodiversity carrying capacity of old growth stands would be considerably less than the CC of forests managed based on a harvest rate of 1%/year.

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oh my

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What does that mean?

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I wonder if the audit will explain why after the herd has been reduced by around 40% , we still need more doe tags than were issued in 2000 ,with a 4 day season, in order to keep the herd stable?

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Thats one a 5th grader could figure out!.

Go ahead, give it a try, I bet you can be as smart as a 5th grader;)

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Apparently you aren't smarter than a fifth grader or you would have provided the answer!!

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I guess we've waited long enough for you to prove by your lack of a response that you don't understand the dynamics of antlerless deer management. It aint taught in 5th grade but any 5th grader can certainly understand it!

In 2000 when there were far too many deer throughout most of the state, it took less tags to generateone harvested doe becaue it took less effort or skill for hunters to harvest them simply because there were so many. Now that there are significantly fewer deer, it takes more doe tags to generate a havested doe than it used to.

Maybe RSB canhelp us out with the most recent ratios of antlerless license per doe harvest but when the success rate per license has decreased, more tags are required to effect the same harvest.

If you ever get on that Foxworthy show, drop out as soon as you run out of fifth graders to copy from;)

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Well let's see if a fifth grader can explain how that theory works in the real world. The herd in 2G was reduced by 40% from 2001 to 2005. After allocating 52K tags in 2003 and 2004 the PGC reduced the allocation by 70% to 16K. At the same time the statewide herd was reduced by about 40% but doe tags were only reduced by 13% even though over 30K additional DMAP tags were issued.

Of course it may takes more tags to harvest a doe as the herd is reduced ,but if the herd is reduced by 40% the number of doe that need to be harvested also drops by 40% ,so a lot fewer tags are needed to keep the herd stable.

RE: Will The Audit Include
 

"I guess we've waited long enough for you to prove by your lack of a response that you don't understand the dynamics of antlerless deer management. It aint taught in 5th grade but any 5th grader can certainly understand it!

In 2000 when there were far too many deer throughout most of the state, it took less tags to generate one harvested doe becaue it took less effort or skill for hunters to harvest them simply because there were so many. Now that there are significantly fewer deer, it takes more doe tags to generate a havested doe than it used to. "

BTB, its funny how some, instead of becoming educated, post one post after another, each LESS educated than the last.[8D] You should pull your facts from somewhere other than other pgc supporters butts and think rationally instead of regurgitating bullsquat. While what you say is true in regards to tags per deer and hunter success rate declining.... AND needing more tags to accomplish the same harvest... The obvious thing youre grossly overlooking is the fact WE DO NOT WANT THE SAME HARVESTS!!! The goal is STABILIZATION supposedly now, and the herd is MUCH smaller. You do NOT want the same harvest that reduced a much larger herd, nor even close. It would cause much greater rate of reduction than it did previously!!! Youre 100% off the mark commentary also wouldnt explain why the HARVEST GOALS in some wmus as Ive pointed out time and again WERE HIGHER!! Not only the allocation, but the goals themselves. Even though the last four years were supposed to be stabilization in the wmu, the harvest goal for 2A was 18,000 for a few years straight, right after a harvest of 16,500 reduced the herd here by 7% according to pgc annual report. WTF?? Can you say no logical explanation, and btb is once again blindly supporting that which cannot be supported by fact.

The goals are less deer where reduction is the goal. And the goal is reduction where stabilization is the lie told just to appease hunters because there is no justification in many wmus for that continued hr that has been ongoing the last four years, as attested to by the annual reports in spite of claims of stabilization Its an enviromentalist extremist nutcase agenda, and they may as well call us little California or New Jersey Senior thanks to our nonhunter friendly current policies and permitting nuts to run the show.

Its all a big sham and its about to be rubber stamped.

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LOL! How ironic for YOU of all people to tell someome to look at the facts.

Your posts are 99% loudmouth ranting with maybe an occasional tidbit of fact inserted. Anyidiot can see that the doe harvest has pretty much stabilized. It always comes back to the same old BS. Do we listen to the professionalss or to some fool whos obviously spittin mad because his favorite deer spot just aint what it used to be? Do we listen to the jackass screaming "econuts econuts" or do we listen to the professionals who have the support and approval of all the noteworthy deer professionals acrosss the country?

Scream on little man. rant rave and fume away! Tell us all about how good of a hunter you are LOL, tell us how strong you are LOL. Yell liar liar or make wild conspiracy claims at everyone with thenads to dispute you LOL.. Vote early and often in your silly little polls. Yell away with every post. All that does is estabish your identity as an internet blowhard. You might as well get it out of your system thoughbecause things arent ever going to change to suit you. Not in this lifetime anyway.:D

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But the PGC professionals have been proven to be wrong based on their own data ,over and over again. They were wrong about the B/D ratio, late breeding, the benefits of ARs and the effects of reducing the herd on forest health.

Why would you still support the professional biologist who have been proven to be wrong on so many issues?

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"LOL! How ironic for YOU of all people to tell someome to look at the facts. "

Jest all you like, my credibility is untouchable to a proven constant liar and all around general malcontent.

"Any idiot can see that the doe harvest has pretty much stabilized."

The only one that can see it is an idiot. because the ANNUAL REPORTS show otherwise. Check out the deer density changes on the annual report and that the REDUCTION HAS CONTINUED in the majority of wmus during the last 4 years when the goal was supposedly stabilization. Net reductions, and some SIGNIFICANT during that time period. Consult, again, the 07/08 pgc annual report. Page 18. Have it printed out looking me in the face as I type this... Thats what I thought liar. I call you a liar because you KNOW THIS, Because Its been posted UMPTEEN TIMES. LOL.

"Scream on little man. rant rave and fume away!"

Litte man? LMAO. From a man who is a self professed physical wreck? LMAO. Rant rave and fume? LOL. Im lauging at a dude with a bushy beard full of spit, bloodshot eyes and slobbering. LMFAO. Dont know if you are just that enraged or if its the disease you have acting up again.

"Tell us all about how good of a hunter you are LOL,"

Good as they come. And you? LMFAO!!

"tell us how strong you are LOL. "

Bench about twice your body weight. LMAO. And you?

"Yell liar liar"

Only when you lie. And Ive already pointed our you lie on this post. Sure another will be along soon.


" Vote early and often in your silly little polls. Yell away with every post."

You mean like you got caught doing with your regular id AND your "camp id" LMFAO. What a fraud. You should do the pgc audit. LMFAO!

" All that does is estabish your identity as an internet blowhard. You might as well get it out of your system though because things arent ever going to change to suit you. Not in this lifetime anyway."

LMAO...>>LOL. And I am the one "ranting" raving fuming and Po'ed? LMFAO!! I guess we should all do like YOU to get responsible change. Plant a big fat sloppy kiss on pgcs arse every single time they ask for one. (LMAO)

I think you better reread your post, cause you're probably the only one who sees it that way after reading your outburst of nonsense. LMAO. Btw, why is that big vein throbbing in your temple? lmao.

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Here are the antler less deer hunter success rates for the past twenty-six years. I have also posted them in five year averages since 1984.

Year…………..License required to harvest one antler less deer…………………five year average
1982.……………………….3.12.………… …………………............................. .......N/A
1983.……………………….4.25.………… …………………............................. .......N/A
1984.……………………….3.83
1985.……………………….3.24
1986.……………………….3.78
1987.……………………….3.49
1988.……………………….3.10.………… …………………............................. .......3.49
1989.……………………….3.16
1990.……………………….3.32
1991.……………………….3.55
1992.……………………….3.61
1993.……………………….3.07.………… …………………............................. .......3.34
1994.……………………….3.27
1995.……………………….3.12
1996.……………………….4.21
1997.……………………….3.34
1998.……………………….4.54.………… …………………............................. .......3.70
1999.……………………….4.79
2000.……………………….2.90
2001.……………………….2.76
2002.……………………….2.92
2003.……………………….3.42.………… …………………............................. .......3.36
2004.……………………….3.65
2005.……………………….3.76
2006.……………………….3.80
2007.……………………….4.04
2008.……………………….3.98.………… …………………............................. .......3.84

R.S. Bodenhorn

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The professional wildlife managers of this state have not been proven wrong. That is nothing more then your goofy and twisted perception and what you want people to believe.

Actually more and more of the real professional wildlife and resource managers, from all across the Continent, are proclaiming that the Pennsylvania deer management methods and objectives are among the best in North America.

R.S. Bodenhorn

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Here is a partial list of the things the experts got wrong.
1. ARs did not double the number of 8 pts.
2. We do not have more and larger buck than ever before.
3. The buck harvest did not return to normal as predicted.
4. There never was a problem with the B/D ratio.
5. ARs did not reduce the breeding window as predicted.
6. Breeding rates and productivity did not increase as predicted. Instead statewide breeding rates decreased by 5%.
7. There never was a problem with late born fawns as Alt claimed there was.
8. Reducing the herd to the biodiversity CC in 2G did not produce the increase in regeneration that was predicted and forest health is still rated as poor.
9. WMUs that were once rated poor or fair for herd health are now rated to be at their targeted goal, even though productivity has not increased.
10. Predicted increases in productivity did not come close to making up for the effects of HR ,so the sustanable harvest has been reduced by around 40%.

It's pretty bad when an armchair biologist can make more accurate predictions that professional wildlife biologists.

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[quote]Here are the antler less deer hunter success rates for the past twenty-six years. I have also posted them in five year averages since 1984.
[/quote

The stats you posted have very little value unless you include the number of tags allocated and the OWDD for each year.

Why did it take so many tags/doe in 1998 and 1999?

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"2004.……………………….3.65
2005.……………………….3.76
2006.……………………….3.80
2007.……………………….4.04 "

Thanks Rsb, you have just highlighted the steady drop in the herd that is shown in the annual report and the decline ive been talking about, during years of supposed stabilization.

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Not quite. Your score one the TRUE/FALSE was dismal

1 FALSE! That was never claimed

2 TRUE! Gary Alt did stick his foot in his mouth on this one

3 FALSE! The buck harvest is now closer to what normal should beif the goal is good deer management and runni9ng a deer farm

4 FALSE! Anyone who hunter here before HR knows that one is delusional

5 FALSE! Cute trick! AR alone was not expected to reduce the breeding window. AR + HR + early doe harvests wereall needed to dothat

6 FALSE! Your misconceptions on this one have been patiently explained several times by RSB on this forum. Sorry you still can't grasp the concept

7 FALSE!(see # 5)

8 FALSE! and misleading. The forest health while still poor, is considerably better than before. Mother nature can fix herself but it doesnt happen overnight

9 FALSE (see # 6)

10 FALSE less deer = less deer! The harvest is less but much closer to what it ought to be for a wild healthy herd in a wild healthy habitat. Again, PA is not your personal deer farm.

So we could listen to the armchair biologists and have this.....



Or we can stay with the pros and have this.........

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We've listened to the liars catering to audubon, and the first picture is what our herd is for it.

"Here is a partial list of the things the experts got wrong.
1. ARs did not double the number of 8 pts. "

GOOD POINT BB. I REMEMBER THE ASNINE CLAIM, AND IT WAS AN IMPOSSIBLE PROMISE USED TO CRAM THE EXCESSIVE REDUCTION DOWN OUR THROATS WHO CARES IF THEY SLAUGHTER THE DOE IF BIG BUCKS ARE BEHIND EVERY TREE?? UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FROM DAY ONE.

"2. We do not have more and larger buck than ever before. "

EXCESSIVE REDUCTION WOULDNT ALLOW FOR IT.

"3. The buck harvest did not return to normal as predicted."

YES, ANOTHER FAILED FAMOUS PREDICTION FROM THE Alt-poleon. LITTLE DEER DICTATOR.


"4. There never was a problem with the B/D ratio."

WELL IT WAS NICE OF THEM TO ADMIT IT AFTER THE DAMAGE WAS DONE WASNT IT? LMAO!

"5. ARs did not reduce the breeding window as predicted."

ALL ONE NEED DO IS CONSULT THE ANNUAL REPORTS THAT SHOW THAT DIDNT HAPPEN.

6. Breeding rates and productivity did not increase as predicted. Instead statewide breeding rates decreased by 5%.

AGAIN, AGREE COMPLETELY, CAN BE SEEN ON THE ANNUAL REPORT BY ANYONE THAT CAN READ.

7. There never was a problem with late born fawns as Alt claimed there was.

COULDNT HAVE BEEN ANY MORE THAN CURRENTLY.

"8. Reducing the herd to the biodiversity CC in 2G did not produce the increase in regeneration that was predicted and forest health is still rated as poor. "

AND UNLESS THEY KEEP THE HERD BETWEEN 0 and 10 DPSM FOR 50 YEARS OR MORE, THEY NEVER WILL. THAT IS UNLESS THEY PULL THEIR HEADS OUT OF BUTTS AND QUIT BLANING EVERY PROBLEM THE WORLD HAS ON THE DEER.

"9. WMUs that were once rated poor or fair for herd health are now rated to be at their targeted goal, even though productivity has not increased. "

WHATEVER IS CONVENIENT FOR THEM. WE'VE SEEN PLENTY ENOUGH NONSENSE THAT THEY CANT EVEN BEGIN THE EXPLAIN...BUT HEY, ITS CONVENIENT FOR THEM, AND EQUATES TO STAYING THE FAILED ECONUT COURSE. WHAT ELSE DO THEY CARE ABOUT? LMAO!

"10. Predicted increases in productivity did not come close to making up for the effects of HR ,so the sustanable harvest has been reduced by around 40%."

AND A HERD and HUNTER NUMBERS CONTINUING TO DECLINE.

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Always easy to tell when Cornholemouth has nothing to say, he simply begins to yell. LOL!

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No yelling. Ive explained a million times to you that I use bold to separate text and who says what. Also why would I yell at BB, when I agreed with everything he said? So guess that once again makes you a L-I-A-R.?

Gee, Im sure the readers of this post are surprised. LMAO.

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Since it's universally accepted that bold type and all caps is considered yelling on the internet, you would have to be stupid or a liar to make that claim. In your case, it's probably both.

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Those may be your opinions but the facts prove you are not telling the truth and are spinning out of control in your feeble attempt to defend the PGC.

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BTB LIES: "Since it's universally accepted that bold type and all caps is considered yelling on the internet,"

NOt when its stated early and often that isnt the intent.

" you would have to be stupid or a liar to make that claim. In your case, it's probably both."

Coming from a proven constant liar like you, that automatically defaults to "neither".

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What say you BB?? BTB NOT TELLING THE TRUTH?? Say it aint so! LMAO!!

When he does tell the truth it will be for the first time. I'll give 10 to 1 odds that say he lies again on his next post. Wanna bet?:D

On a more serious note, there is help. But first he must admit to himself he has a problem, and then be willing to accept help. This link can help: -- REAL HELP TO STOP LYING