Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Check out my post on this subject at the Small Game, Predator, and Trapping forum.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

1000's of reported "siteings" - more in fact then from states where they are known to exist - and not one documented photo, scat, hair or any other proof has been posted.

Show me the proof - not just a feeling from a "night of terror".

Steve

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Nobody saw anything??? What do you mean by terrorizing cattle? What did it do?

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

If you don't want BS for a response, then don't make such a post IMHO. Just sayin'.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

I gues it may have been tippin the cattle??? Pretty vague....

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

We have a few up here as well.. Some may think it is a joke but you can rest assured it is not. A couple of years ago they caught a guy trying to bring one into release. So up here it is not just a question if it is more of a question if they are here naturally.. The guy that was caught with one went to jail for a while and will never be able to hunt again. This was a felony charge that he had recieved. So it is very possable that other states may have the same issue..

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Crokit, I made this post to get feedback and opinions and i knew there would be people that were too narrow-minded to believe this could have actually happened. Like i said,"i cannot say for certain", but my belief is that it was a large predator and the best explanation is mt. lion.

bronko2200, I wanted to keep this post clean, and on an intelligent level. Hince the reason for stating let's keep the bull**** out. However, i see that you're unable to do that. So i dont know if you are just a trouble maker taking stabs, or if it's your inability to be open-minded and intelligent that's the problem. I did not start this post for people like you to respond to, i'll know better next time! Cow tipping cougars...........enough said.:eek:

Let's try to keep it on the Predator forum o.k. fellas.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

btip - Be open minded and not insult our intelligence by posting more detail.
Countless explanations other then ml are probably the basis for the "night of terror".

Youv'e basically asked for support for your feelings - not discussion.

Post detail or remain in the deep pool of ml rumors with zero proof.

Steve

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Well, maybe I"ll add a little more detail since it was one of my herds of cattle involved. First I'll describe the weather, that I believe has a major role in the whole thing. It had snowed maybe a 1/4 before turning to rain/freezing rain that lasted till around 1 am, then the temperature dropped to 15 degrees. There was a 1/4 inch glaze of ice on everything the next morning. I have 3 herds of cattle in different areas on the farm. When I went to feed, the first two herds was just like they always are standing around waiting to be fed. When I approached the pasture with the last herd, which is located about 700 yards from the herd I just fed, those cattle was gone and had not finished their feed from the previous evening, very odd indeed. When I finally found them back in the woods, they was acting very unusual, acted afraid of me and did not want to go back where they belonged. They had ran through barbed wire fence in two different places and had covered alot of ground during the night. No cattle or calves had been killed, but they was tore up from running through fence,brush and rough terrain. I first suspected dogs or coyotes, and due to the glaze of ice I was unable to track anything. I thought it just happened to me at first, but later that night another farmer called and asked if I had the phone number to a local trapper that I know well, he said he thought coyotes had run his cattle through a woven wire fence, and wanted something done ASAP, he is located about 1.5 mi from me. He also said the same thing happened on a farm south of him. I immediatly knew something wasn't adding up. The next day I made many calls to cattle farmers in the surrounding area, and soon learned it was a route shaping up and only cattle in a direct path was affected, all had been run through fence of all kinds, was acting strange and would not eat once they had been rounded up. I was able to determine it was a route that covered almost 30 miles in the same night, I suspect it is more than that, but the trail ended at the foot of mountain range. No livestock was killed, but some had to be euthanized due to injuries from going through fence, some farms also had sheep that wasn't harmed, one was a dairy farm were the cows had broke out of the barn and would not go back the next morning to be milked. Nobody including some over 80 years old lifelong cattlemen had never seen cattle in that shape. Nobody seen anything, but many heard dogs raising hell during the night. SteveBNy, you wanted more detail and I could go on, but I think I've might have rambled enough.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

No sense in adding more detail unless you could provide ANYTHING that would show it was a mountain lion.
30 miles it was tracked without a track, a bit of fur or any evidence other then "feelings"?
Cougarnet will jump all over this kind of "proof".

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

What else could have done this, The cattle are all the proof needed to know something came through.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Exactly the reply I anticipated - and one that would be offered as "proof" by cougarnet.

Key word is "something" - nothing that demonstrates any tangible proof that it was a ml.

Dteve

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Steve, first I want to say I understand were you are coming from, I felt the very same way as you until 4 months ago. Second I have not fooled with cougernet or any other group other than my Dept. of game and lots of farmers.
So if you would, just use what I write while we have a conversation. There was a track identified by a respected bear hunter the morning in question. I have wrote that everything was coated with ice, but it had snowed a bit before the ice. The track was found in a pine thicket that was some what protected from the ice but not clear enough that the hound hunter I mentioned knew for certain what it was, at first he thought it was a bear track but wasn't sure. He also did not know anything had happened in the surrounding area until 2 days later. I have been given permission by my Game Dept to kill whatever is responsible and I will certainly do that. Nobody had experience this sort of thing before and we was all caught off guard, that is no longer the case. I did not start this thread, and I didnt ask for it to be. I suspect the original poster felt someone else had experienced something similar and would like to keep the samething from happening to someone else, as would I. There have been alot of aborted calves after this happened due to the cattle being stressed to that degree. Nothing like this has ever happened before. I am open to any suggestion as to what caused this, I know many things have been ruled out. If you are anyone else has any input/ideas I will be glad to provide what information I have in a civil manner.

Thanks

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

alright the game dept gave you permisson to kill whatever is responsible
come on how could they legally do that ( could have been kids,the weather ice storm making cows fall and carry on, what about a endangerd specie the game dept said you could kill anything huh hope noone made you mad .
As for cougars had a neighbor work 3rd shift say they saw one in my yard
yep they got a pic too. Turned out to be a house cat someone dropped off standing up on hind legs eating dog food out of the bowl that i screwed 2 ft up the coupe dumb dog always tips it when it is tied out
I got a good laugh out of they was embarresed didnt believe me till i found cat showed them and the good thing was they took it so i didnt have to drive a half hour to the dog pound to get rid of it
My point is there is to many fake storys out there to believe one right now
Give me a pic or prof of somekind and maybe then i will believe

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Bowtruck, I can assure you permission has been granted by the VDGIF if what ever it is, is caught in the act. It is not kids or weather. I have been around cows all my life and know them well, I have seen dogs run them before and get them very riled up, but not to this degree, nobody has. I have explained the situation as it unfolded on page one.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of nothing. I have responded with truthful information, I don't expect anyone to believe it, but it did happen as I've told it. What else could have done it? There is 17 farmers affected and my Game Dept has been very helpful. A picture would end all doubt, so would a dead Mt Lion.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Hmmm... Heard DOGS raising hell through the night...??..Do yousuppose DOGS, which are EVERYWHERE , could possibly be the culprits, rather than cougars, whose presence is questionable, at best..??..

Cougar behavior generally involves attacking prey from ambush, catching it in a short sprint,rather than chasing them hell west and crooked over 30 miles of territory...

Dogs LOVE to chase, and sometimes the kill is not as important to them as the chase..

Cougars kill to live...It seems like that if a cougar was involved, the bovines would have suffered a casualty or two...

Of many "cougar" stories, this one seems to be among the LEAST likely to have involved a feline..

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Dogs would not have swam a river 4 different times.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Steve, since you are obviously sooooo intelligent what do you suggestmight have caused such a ruckus? ONCE AGAIN, i did not start this post for you or anyone else to prove or disprove anything to me! I simply ask for some intelligent feedback. You are entitled to your opinion but you don't have to be such an azz with your responses, if you don't like or agree with this postmove on, and save room for someone who has something decent to say!!!!

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Asking for something other then the same old rumors and feelings is being an azz?
Your azz threshold is pretty low then.


Want intelligent feedback?
Then provide some intelligence to start with.
Suggestion: saying that you see no other explanation for some riled cattle then a phantom ML is not necessarly
providing an intelligent, debate free statement - andcertainley not remotely related to proof.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

dogs dont swim better tell my lab he must be a cougar :)

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

I had the same exact thing happen to me 5 years ago. When i went to feed the cows (22 beef cows) at a farm that i take care of. Only half of the hay was eaten and the cows were gone. They ran threw two fences (4 wire) and did'nt stop for almost ahalf mile. With the snow on the ground, i could see there were dog tracks all over. I found out the next day that coyote hunters run their dogs threw the pasture. I was pi$$ed.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Dogs indeed swim. But ask any hound hunter if their dogs will run a bear or anything else after it swims a river.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

MLO, That has been considered, and it does sound logical. There are no coyote hunters with dogs in this area and hound season was over.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

haystack , unfortionaly sprouls gone but he was the one on this forum with the knowlage (believed in) the cougar sighting

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

To start with, inever asked anyone to provide me with proof. This isMY heart-felt OPINION!!!!!!!!........on whathappened that night. There are but a handful of animalsin the U.S.that can travelthe distance this thing covered in a single night, all the way causing a pronound affect onevery cow herd in it's wake. As i said, bear, coyotes and DOGS areaplenty in this area, and are always in close proximity to cattle with hardly a single negative impact on them in my lifetime and the lifetime of many elderly farmers in the area.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

b tip whatever happen for your animals sake i hope dont happen again. But i guess you have permission from you game dept to kill anything it was for your sake i hope its not endangered

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Bowtruck, Western Mt lions are not endangered.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

i said or ment to say whatever it is i truely think you will find it was not a cougar. but thats JMHO

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Well '06 I am very openminded. And Quite frankly I do believe it is highly possible that there are cougars in the NE. Just because no one has pictures or other proof. I know I don't carry a camera into the woods every time I do. And ther are several times I wish I would have.Also, I've stated that opinion several times on other posts on this exact subject. Or perhaps you are just to young in here to have read them.But when you make a post, you shoud give as much detail as you have and not leave it so vague.
So if you can't detect a bit of humor in a post, I truly feel sorry for you.
Anyway, after reading most of these posts did any of you consider it may have been the weather that caused the cattle to run?From what I've read, it snowed, then freezing rain dropping the temperature dramatically. I bet it was windy too. Add all that weight on the trees and the wind blowing and you have snapping branches, falling trees topped off by the cattle having a difficult time on the ice and you have a recipe for panic. I'm not a cattle person but seems plausable to me.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Bronko, i'm not trying to be argumentative or too stiff to find humor in life, but this is something that has me yearning for a definitive answer. And for me, this seems like a logicalpossibility as crazy as that sounds.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

The weather is ruled out on account of it's very narrow line of travel. It affected cattle at one point and several hundred yards away and on either side there were cattle completely unaffected.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Well friend, I would not dismiss the possibility of a predator. But it seems strange that something would travel 30 miles and also cross a river numerous times. I don't think cougars are particularly fond of water. I do believe that weather may have been the culprit. After all, the first 2 herds were not alarmed but the other that was farther away - were they closer to the woods?
It could also have been a pack of coyotes or wild dogs too....!

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

bronko, The conditions were the same. It is not just one herd of cattle, it involves many herds including a herd of dairy cows that was in a barn at the time.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

OK - I'm just questioning any other possibilities. And I guess it all just boils down to speculation as to what caused the havoc. And something that will never be determined.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Strange indeed, that's why i'm so damn curious as to what happened! This is something that has hold of my mind, usually with enough thought and research i can figure things out with some degree of certainty, and after months of much conversation and consideration this isall thatI and many others can come up with. And i know it seems far fetched, but there are not many otherexplanations that can't be ruled out.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Bronko, I agree with your last statement. But if something of this nature happens again a plan is in place. As I've said permission has been granted to all farmers to shot to kill. That may not be possible especially in those weather conditions, however hound hunters have been contacted to assist the farmers and the Game Dept if it happens again. Also I was told by a biologist that the USFWS would also be called in to remedy the issue.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

What it boils down to is that it has been a substantial slap in the wallet for good people who cannot afford for this to be a reoccuring thing. Through aborted calves, vet care, fence repair and several animals that had to be put down on account of this, it was costly. At least if there were some kind of explanation people could maybe prepare themselves for it. That was the reason for this post, to see what other opinions were on this matter. And to see if others thought that it maybe could be mt. lions in the east. After all, this seemed to be what our State biologists suggested after a ton of phone calls and complaints.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Well, up until now I refrained from posting anything on this subject because what I'm about to tell you will lead to ridicule. So be it.

In the mid 80's my wife and I were driving home from camp on a sunny May afternoon, with some friends right behind us. We were traveling on Rte 120 between Renovo and Lock Haven (closer to Lock Haven) when I saw what appeared to be a very large dog on the shoulder of the road (on the river side). I was cruising along about 55-60 mph and I slowed down to about25 mph because it appeared that the animal was going to cross the road. Sure enough it did, about 30' in front of my Bronco. My wife said "what the hell is that!?" I said it's a cat. more specifically a mountain lion. I could have run it over with my Bronco, and to this day sometimes I wish I would have. No, it wasn't a bobcat. Not even close. And when we stopped in Lock Haven for gas, our friends said the same thing - what the hell was that?

Where did it come from? What was it doing there? Heck if I know. A beautiful animal. Smooth facial features, tawny color, long tail. Big. Did it escape from captivity? I know there was a place along 120 called the "Lion's Den". I never stopped there, maybe they had one and it escaped. But I know what I saw.

RE: Thoughts on Mt. Lions in the East
 

Outsider, Your last sentence about the possibility of an escaped animal has been discussed and its a good one. After talking to different officials, they informed me that over a decade ago, a big time drug dealer did in fact possess 2 western Mt lions. Why and how nobody knows, but when it comes to people, especially people on drugs you can not understand none of it.