RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

There is no question that the deer mortality exceeded the fawn recruitment in the any location where the deer populations declined.

The problem with you and many others understanding deer management though is in the fact that you don’t seem to recognize the fact that many things besides hunters and the number of deer shot can seriously affect that fawn recruitment. The fact that unit 2G has had both declining antler less allocations and deer harvests over the past twenty years should lead any thinking person toward the conclusion that something besides deer harvests is causing the decline in fawn recruitment that it can’t keep up with even the ever declining deer harvests.

That fact that the deer numbers keep declining even while hunters keep harvesting fewer deer leads me to believe that the fawn recruitment has been declining due to the changes in any number of the environmental factors. The first thing that becomes suspect in the declining fawn recruitment has to be the habitat. Since the deer were over protected in that unit for so long anyone who has the eyes to see and recognize poor habitat can clearly see that the habitat is so poor it can’t support many deer.

Next a reasonable person would have to look at the affects that harsh winters have been shown to have on fawn survival rates. We know that as many as 93% of the fawns have been shown to die from nutritional stress when their mothers didn’t get enough food through both the winter and spring.

A reasonable person would also suspect and even know that fawn predation is an increased factor in the poor habitat areas of the state.
Put all of those factors together and anyone capable of logical thinking would surely recognize that in light of declining deer numbers while hunters are killing fewer of them, is a pretty clear indication that something other then hunter harvests is at play in such areas.

So basically the fact is that hunters were not the leading reason the deer numbers in unit 2G have declined.. The real reason for the decline is that the habitat couldn’t support more deer through winters of adverse conditions so nature reduced the deer populations with reduced fawn recruitment rates. That happens everywhere man fails to keep populations in balance with their food supply.

Don’t feel bad about not understanding that though, the anti-hunters don’t understand it either. That is just one more way you and the rest of the USP are more closely related their goals then you are the goals of objectives of hunters.


R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

That is absolutely false and misleading and is precisely why you and the pGC have no credibility. after 80 years of over browsing the habitat in 2G still produced a harvest of 10K buck and 20K doe in 2002. But just a few years later both the buck and hte antlerless harvests were cut in half due to HR. The decline in recruitment was due to the harvests of adult doe that exceeded recruitment. It is so obvious that a blind man without a seeing eye dog can see it ,but you can't.

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

rsb, i cant remember year, after all tags were out.

i never saw so many doe killed in about 2 years in wmu2g,the hunters killed them in great numbers.

after that it never seemed that deer came back.

habitat as you say could be reason of less fawns too.

predators are really doing a number on deer fawns as do to less deer,less fawns than 20 years ago.

we did not have coyotes 20 years ago, not 1 in my area and never a report of coyote, none.

i still feel they are making a big impact on fawns,i saw 2 killed at bush dam with 25 witnesses.

even the president of USP was there, he was manager at park, don clemmer.

he saw it too.we were having a bass tournament.

both fawns were killed, both in a matter of 30 minutes.



6 doe swam the lake to get away.

if we have less doe, like my report of 4 dpsm.
not all doe being bred.
then predators
habitat too.

how are we to increase fawns surviving.

even with good habitat , if we have these coyotes, bobcats, bears killing fawns with less doe now, i cant see herd increasing unless doe permits are reduced .

also, how many hunters turn in their doe card kills, VERY FEW, IF ANY DO UNLESS A WCO CHECKED THEIR DOE KILL.

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

"The fact that unit 2G has had both declining antler less allocations and deer harvests over the past twenty years should lead any thinking person toward the conclusion that something besides deer harvests is causing the decline in fawn recruitment that it can’t keep up with even the ever declining deer harvests. "

What you are saying makes ZERO sense. If the herd were on a declining trend, due to harvest, THE HARVEST IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO DECLINE ALONG WITH THE HERD SIZE!! THerefore it takes less and less harvest to continue to reduce the herd.

You are basing your halfbaked theory on absolutely nothing other than you dont believe that it takes far fewer doe tags to reduce or stabilize a very low deer population.

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

well, here is 1 way to prove if fawns increase,CLOSE DOE SEASON FOR 1 YEAR AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

Nope that story of high doe harvests in unit 2G simply doesn’t hold water because the real facts are that the doe antler less harvests in that unit have been reduced for the past fifteen to twenty years compared to what they had historically been for the counties made up unit 2G.

Here are the antler less harvest facts for the counties that make up unit 2G in harvests per square mile of land mass. They are what prove you wrong.

Unit……………88-92.…………93-97.…………98-02.…………..03-07
2G……………..5.48.…………..4.36.……⠀¦â€¦â€¦4.66.……………2.35

When we shifted to using management units they were too conservative with the allocations and by harvesting so few antler less deer there were way to many deer through the winter. We had a couple back to back hard winters combined with those excess over winter deer until the population crashed through greatly reduced fawn recruitment.

The evidence is all there and there is nothing complicated about it; that is simply how nature works when man fails to keep a deer population in balance with its food supply.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

if herd is way down and hunters are not seeing deer, would that not be a reason for the low numbers of kills in the 03/07 years.

if there was more doe in 88/93 area, would that not be reason why more doe were killed per mile than

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

Apparently it is much to complicated for you to comprehend, because those reduced antlerless harvest continued to reduce the herd in 2g ,whether you like it or not. The OWDD in 2G went from 15 DPSM in 2000 to less than 8 OWDPSM in 2007 . solely due to the harvests exceeding recruitment during that period. And , you can't provide one iota of evidence that shows I am wrong.

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

No Sproul,It is because habitat said no to deer. No means no. Hunters and doe tags given out has nothing to do with deer population or fawns being born.

This is like if you have 10 doe in a penned area with one buck being a spike with unlimited food supply. You go in and kill 9 of the adult does.Ok you following me here. You got one 6 month old doe left to give birth to a single fawn maybe. Most likely it will be a buck that is born and will turn out to be a WR buck from it not being killed and left to walk and breed. Now next year with all that good habitat that one doe will now be able to produce 10 fawns and you will be able to go in and kill 9 more deer because the habitat is what controls the births of fawns and not you killing the mature does. Are you following me Sproul? Some people just don't understand habitat and how it controls the fawn population. It's not the hunters I tell you. Some people on here. Back to the back of the class Sproul for that crazy talk.

RE: Only option for the PGC now
 

wow, 10 fawns in 1 year, thats something from one doe:eek: