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-   -   PGC data flawed (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/285084-pgc-data-flawed.html)

DougE 02-09-2009 05:32 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
turkeys do not eat seedlings.

explorer_Jack 02-09-2009 05:38 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: DougE

turkeys do not eat seedlings.
Yes they do idiot. Look it up. I bet your a expert on turkey and their habitat now also. You are like the other PGCs and wannaB PGCs on here. Good for a laugh. Don't know real diddly squat about animals, Do you. You must stay at the holiday inn alot.

DougE 02-09-2009 05:41 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
I almost feel bad for you because you're so clueless.Turkeys do not browse on seedlings.

bluebird2 02-09-2009 07:03 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
That's right, they just eat the whole seedling. Obviously he is talking about when the seeds first sprout in the spring and it is nothing more that a sprouted acorn or seed with the very start of new growth.

DougE 02-09-2009 07:16 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
Nope.Hesaid seedlings.

sproulman 02-09-2009 07:28 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: DougE

Nope.Hesaid seedlings.
douge, are you finding any dead deer from hunger?

the PGC/DCNR wannabees that helped me stock fish at bush dam last week are starting that.:eek:

THEY GOT TO PUSH THAT HR KILL DOE AGENDA.[:@]

so much FIBBING going on these days to WALK THE TALK.;)

DougE 02-09-2009 07:47 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
Nope Sproul.I don't have snowshoes and there's no way to get around with all this snow.It ought to be mostly melted by this weeked if we get a little rain.

explorer_Jack 02-09-2009 07:58 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack

ORIGINAL: DougE

DCNR doesn't care how many turkeys they have.They're concerned about deer because deer impact the habitat,turkeys do not.Where do you come up with this stuff?


Turkey do so impact the habitat. They eat seedlings and new plant growth also. Haven't you ever seen them around newly planted fields? To say they don't affect habitat is something a stupid person would say.You got a hybrid turkey that causes no habitat loss and feeds on nothing to grow in PA?
Yes WannaB I was talking about new seed growth. Read what I wrote. You said they don't impact habitat. Once again you have no clue about wildlife.

bluebird2 02-09-2009 08:35 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 

ORIGINAL: DougE

Nope.He said seedlings.
And seed becomes a seedling as long as it sprouts,so he is right and you are wrong.

R.S.B. 02-09-2009 11:07 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: ManySpurs

ORIGINAL: DougE

The doe mortality study shows that hunters are killingless than 8% of the doe.
Yea but the realvalue of that study would have been knowing how many hunters were required to kill those 8 percent. Knowing the success rate would have been very beneficial to forming allocation formulas. What a concept eh? Just knowing that 8 percent of the collared doe that were harvested by hunters is meaningless without knowing the number of hunters that were required to achieve that 8 percent.

Actually part of the same study does attempt to determine hunter densities by both placing GPS units on hunters and using aircraft to count hunters, determine how far form the roads they go and to see where the deer are in relation to where the hunters went.

There are some reports available on that topic. I expect more to come in the future as more studies are completed.

Read more about it here.


http://pacfwru.cas.psu.edu/reports/final-huntmvmt-082004.pdf


R.S. Bodenhorn

bluebird2 02-09-2009 01:45 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
The fact remains that the antlerless harvests reduced the herd in both study areas, which means the study methodology was seriously flawed and raises questions regarding the accuracy of the fawn mortality study and the antlered buck study.

bowtruck 02-09-2009 01:57 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
:eek:

R.S.B. 02-09-2009 07:36 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

The fact remains that the antlerless harvests reduced the herd in both study areas, which means the study methodology was seriously flawed and raises questions regarding the accuracy of the fawn mortality study and the antlered buck study.

In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?

R.S. Bodenhorn

BTBowhunter 02-09-2009 08:04 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.

ORIGINAL: bluebird2

The fact remains that the antlerless harvests reduced the herd in both study areas, which means the study methodology was seriously flawed and raises questions regarding the accuracy of the fawn mortality study and the antlered buck study.

In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?

R.S. Bodenhorn

I agree RSB,
Lets also not forget that the fawn study took place before the AR/HR program had an effect.Something BB2 seems to want toignore with that statement he just made.

bluebird2 02-10-2009 03:48 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?
What the adult doe study proved is that hunters were reluctant to shoot a collared doe and as a result the study did not produce accurate harvest data. It doesn't effect me one way or the other if the herds were increasing or decreasing in the study areas but it is important to the PGC and it is also important that the study results agree with the harvest data,since if they don't it means one or the other is flawed.

bluebird2 02-10-2009 03:51 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
Lets also not forget that the fawn study took place before the AR/HR program had an effect. Something BB2 seems to want to ignore with that statement he just made

If hunters were reluctant to shoot collared deer for whatever reason, it would result in lower than expected harvest mortality and as a result the study would be flawed no matter when it was conducted.

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 05:34 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?
What the adult doe study proved is that hunters were reluctant to shoot a collared doe and as a result the study did not produce accurate harvest data. It doesn't effect me one way or the other if the herds were increasing or decreasing in the study areas but it is important to the PGC and it is also important that the study results agree with the harvest data,since if they don't it means one or the other is flawed.
Actually, the study showed that hunters killed only 8% and 15% of those does in the study that died. Reluctance of hunters to shoot a colared deer has been offered as a plausible theory that has yet to be proven, hence the less visible tags and the $100 reward.

the less visible tagging and reward idea sounds like a perfectly legitimate method for improving acccuracy. It seemsthatthe same that criticized the first study and its' methods are the same few complaining about the attempt to make the reults more accurate. PGC is attempting to improve the data collection method while a few with their own agenda see fit to criticize either method.

explorer_Jack 02-10-2009 06:17 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.




In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?

R.S. Bodenhorn
How can it be scientific facts when it was not in a controled setting? It can't be accurate if something altered the outcome of the experiment that wasn't thought out and added to the equation before the experiment for the outcome to be accurate? Hunters sees collars on deer,Hunters don't shoot deer, Experiment allready screwed up and data not accurate. Reason, Hunters afraid of shooting collared deer along with undetermined number of hunters in the area where the deer was collared and released. Not to accurate for data to be collected I would say to get an accurate or even close to accurate outcome of the experemint. Scientists would be proud along with your school science teacher when they see what you consider scientific facts.:eek:

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 06:21 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack

ORIGINAL: R.S.B.




In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?

R.S. Bodenhorn
How can it be scientific facts when it was not in a controled setting? It can't be accurate if something altered the outcome of the experiment that wasn't thought out and added to the equation before the experiment for the outcome to be accurate? Hunters sees collars on deer,Hunters don't shoot deer, Experiment allready screwed up and data not accurate. Reason, Hunters afraid of shooting collared deer along with undetermined number of hunters in the area where the deer was collared and released. Not to accurate for data to be collected I would say to get an accurate or even close to accurate outcome of the experemint. Scientists would be proud along with your school science teacher when they see what you consider scientific facts.:eek:

I'm sure your science teacher and your grade school english teachers are quite proud as well

explorer_Jack 02-10-2009 06:26 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter

ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack

ORIGINAL: R.S.B.




In other words, the study results don’t show what you want them to show and instead disprove your nonsense rankings so you have to make every attempt to discredit those scientific facts somehow. Right?

R.S. Bodenhorn
How can it be scientific facts when it was not in a controled setting? It can't be accurate if something altered the outcome of the experiment that wasn't thought out and added to the equation before the experiment for the outcome to be accurate? Hunters sees collars on deer,Hunters don't shoot deer, Experiment allready screwed up and data not accurate. Reason, Hunters afraid of shooting collared deer along with undetermined number of hunters in the area where the deer was collared and released. Not to accurate for data to be collected I would say to get an accurate or even close to accurate outcome of the experemint. Scientists would be proud along with your school science teacher when they see what you consider scientific facts.:eek:

I'm sure your science teacher and your grade school english teachers are quite proud as well
What ya mean?

Cornelius08 02-10-2009 07:02 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
"If hunters were reluctant to shoot collared deer for whatever reason, it would result in lower than expected harvest mortality and as a result the study would be flawed no matter when it was conducted. "

Exactly.

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 08:12 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08

"If hunters were reluctant to shoot collared deer for whatever reason, it would result in lower than expected harvest mortality and as a result the study would be flawed no matter when it was conducted. "

Exactly.
And so the PGC will do it again and either get better data or dispell a myth. Either way, we all benefit from their trying to eliminate possibleflaws in the data.
I fail to see how trying to make a research project more accurate can be a bad thing unless someone with an agenda has worries as to what the outcome will do to that agenda.

bluebird2 02-10-2009 08:32 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
I fail to see how trying to make a research project more accurate can be a bad thing unless someone with an agenda has worries as to what the outcome will do to that agenda.
No one said it was a bad thing that they were trying to improve the accuracy of the study. But my question is how the results will be used to improve deer management, when they claim antlerless allocations are based on herd health and forest health rather than the number of deer in each WMU or the number of deer needed to keep the herd stable?

bawanajim 02-10-2009 08:41 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

I fail to see how trying to make a research project more accurate can be a bad thing unless someone with an agenda has worries as to what the outcome will do to that agenda.
No one said it was a bad thing that they were trying to improve the accuracy of the study. But my question is how the results will be used to improve deer management, when they claim antlerless allocations are based on herd health and forest health rather than the number of deer in each WMU or the number of deer needed to keep the herd stable?
You can't possibly miss the value that comes from this added knowledge.
How can you estimate the number of tags that are required to add to,reduce or maintain the herd with no idea the number of tags that are required to achieve you set goals.?[&:]

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 08:55 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
But my question is how the results will be used to improve deer management, when they claim antlerless allocations are based on herd health and forest health rather than the number of deer in each WMU or the number of deer needed to keep the herd stable?
Knowing exactly how hunting fits into deer mortality will only serve to help reinforce the validity of the present system or point out the need for changes. Either way, the herd and the hunters benefit. Better information for all is never a bad thing unless ones agenda is threatened by better information.

The PGC is attempting to obtain better information. Do you agree with that or not?

explorer_Jack 02-10-2009 09:06 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter



The PGC is attempting to obtain better information. Do you agree with that or not?
For what purpose? Look at 2G. They know 2G can carry more deer yet they continue to slaughter off what they can instead of bring the deer herd up to carry capacity. So no the information don't matter to them cause they don't use it and continue on with their deer slaughter when they reach the holding capacity of deers in WMUs. So the only info they want is how to get money from taxes so they can go tell you hunters to take another flying !@#$ with your money.

bluebird2 02-10-2009 10:47 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
How can you estimate the number of tags that are required to add to,reduce or maintain the herd with no idea the number of tags that are required to achieve you set goals.?
That is absolutely not true and if it was there would be no reason for the PGC to calculate the change in DD each year based on the harvest data.

bowtruck 02-10-2009 03:23 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
i see ej is still on the rsb leap kick still
bb if they get more info they may change a few things for the better maybe not

bluebird2 02-10-2009 03:28 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
The PGC already knows the antlerless harvests are still reducing the herd but they still claim they are stabilizing the herd. Better doe mortality info won't change that.

bowtruck 02-10-2009 03:41 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
I see your point can agree with it but hope with more info they will feel the need to lower tag allocations

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 04:23 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
Original Explorer Jack:

For what purpose? Look at 2G. They know 2G can carry more deer yet they continue to slaughter off what they can instead of bring the deer herd up to carry capacity. So no the information don't matter to them cause they don't use it and continue on with their deer slaughter when they reach the holding capacity of deers in WMUs. So the only info they want is how to get money from taxes so they can go tell you hunters to take another flying !@#$ with your money.


Original Bluebird2:

The PGC already knows the antlerless harvests are still reducing the herd but they still claim they are stabilizing the herd. Better doe mortality info won't change that.

It's beginning to appear that some people don't want to see better information. I can't imagine why any hunter would not want the data the PGC uses to be as accurate as possible especially with all the allegations that the PGC is mismanaging the deer from those who seem to object to seeking better informtion.

Could it be that more accurate information wouldn't support their agenda?

bowtruck 02-10-2009 04:28 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
it sure is looking that way isnt it :D

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 04:35 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
Well, we know that the is allergic to the truth. I think he'd break out in hives and his feathers would fall out if he was required to speak it:D

bowtruck 02-10-2009 04:38 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
baldbird ?????

bluebird2 02-10-2009 04:38 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
It's beginning to appear that some people don't want to see better information. I can't imagine why any hunter would not want the data the PGC uses to be as accurate as possible especially with all the allegations that the PGC is mismanaging the deer from those who seem to object to seeking better informtion.
More accurate information means nothing if it is not applied properly. Alt knew there was no problem with the B/D ratio but lied about it. He knew the cause of late born fawns but lied about it. He knew that ARs wouldn't increase the rack size of 2.5+ buck ,but lied about. The PGC knows the antlerless harvests are reducing the herd but they are lying about it. More accurate data wouldn't have prevented any of those lies!!!

bluebird2 02-10-2009 04:56 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
FYI , they are called bald eagles not baldbirds.;)

BTBowhunter 02-10-2009 06:07 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

It's beginning to appear that some people don't want to see better information. I can't imagine why any hunter would not want the data the PGC uses to be as accurate as possible especially with all the allegations that the PGC is mismanaging the deer from those who seem to object to seeking better informtion.
More accurate information means nothing if it is not applied properly. Alt knew there was no problem with the B/D ratio but lied about it. He knew the cause of late born fawns but lied about it. He knew that ARs wouldn't increase the rack size of 2.5+ buck ,but lied about. The PGC knows the antlerless harvests are reducing the herd but they are lying about it. More accurate data wouldn't have prevented any of those lies!!!
Thank you for proving once again that there is nothing the PGC could ever do that would meet with your approval.

sproulman 02-10-2009 06:14 PM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
i just got in from checking the feeders and putting out some more alfalfa.

i had camera up at different feeder to try to get idea HOW MANY DEER ARE COMING INTO EACH FEEDER.

well, i had 5 on this feeder i checked.

last feeder had 4 deer , 3 looked like 1.5 yr old deer,1 was a 2 year old or so.

this feeder that had 5,,,1 was a FAWN ,boy, i was happy to see that, next 3 looked like 1.5 yr old deer and again 1,, 2 yr old or so doe.

no bucks that i can see by holes in head.

all were very healthy looking and this was in area that WANNABEES were saying they are dying.:)

bluebird2 02-11-2009 02:46 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
Thank you for proving once again that there is nothing the PGC could ever do that would meet with your approval.
Wrong again. They could reduce the doe tag allocations and eliminate ARs. That would make a lot of hunters happy.

bawanajim 02-11-2009 05:31 AM
RE: PGC data flawed
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Thank you for proving once again that there is nothing the PGC could ever do that would meet with your approval.
Wrong again. They could reduce the doe tag allocations and eliminate ARs. That would make a lot of hunters happy.
I just figured it out, its not that [&:]birds are inept at the art of deer hunting he is secretly running his own little Iran -Contra covert operation.
Buy secretly preventing those hunting around him from killing any deer ,he is invaluable atsingle handily sabotaging the P.G.C. herd reduction program.[:-]


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