Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
10-19-2008, 09:40 AM
#281
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Bluebird wants to only point out two different small time slots and you point to one set of stats over 5 years. The NSSF data , right on their website, tells a much more complete story and puts PA right in with national averages.
Pa is currently only replacing each retiring hunter with .69 new hunter or to put more realistically, for each 100 hunters that quit, 69 start.
From 2002 to 2005 license sales declined by 71 ,000 including junior license sales. During the same period over 100,000 junior licenses were sold each year. How does that equate to a replacement rate of .69?
10-19-2008, 09:50 AM
#282
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Hmmm. Did I mention my hunting?Hmmm. Conversation not going your way or supporting your position? Ha ha. I'd put my hunting skill against yoursany day of the week.
Theres right and then theres wrong. Hasvery little to do with me personally. Ive scouted pleny. Have a dozen stands set on a few propertiesandnot only am I notmad about my odds of getting a buck this archery season, Im pretty much counting on it. If in doubt, please see my post and pic under "first daybuck"on "pa outdoors message board". I passed on a buck that I let a lesser experienced friend take first day of archery.
Theres right and then theres wrong. Hasvery little to do with me personally. Ive scouted pleny. Have a dozen stands set on a few propertiesandnot only am I notmad about my odds of getting a buck this archery season, Im pretty much counting on it. If in doubt, please see my post and pic under "first daybuck"on "pa outdoors message board". I passed on a buck that I let a lesser experienced friend take first day of archery.
I'm so glad you cleared that up
"You can claim whatever you want but the bottom line is that the majority of Pa hunters are not digruntled."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha he he he.For anyonenot a friend family member or employee of pgc, audubon society or eco-extremists...Thatneedsnot even be addressed...(LOL)
"But thats not the root of the problem. The problem is nationwide "
That position will NEVER solve the problem, as it a position of denial.
That position will NEVER solve the problem, as it a position of denial.
"Bluebird wants to only point out two different small time slots and you point to one set of stats over 5 years. "
Thats because it the time slot that was addressed by usfws, and it also overlaps and correlates with much of the effects of the deer program. Since the deer program has been in effect 20 years, I dont see much use in comparing 20.
Thats because it the time slot that was addressed by usfws, and it also overlaps and correlates with much of the effects of the deer program. Since the deer program has been in effect 20 years, I dont see much use in comparing 20.
10-19-2008, 10:00 AM
#283
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
No one is claiming that there isn't a general nation wide decline in license sales. What we are saying is that the rate of decline in PA has been accelerated during the last 5 years due to the dramatic decrease in the deer herd and you have provided nothing to refute that claim.
From 2002 to 2005 license sales declined by 71 ,000 including junior license sales. During the same period over 100,000 junior licenses were sold each year. How does that equate to a replacement rate of .69?
Bluebird wants to only point out two different small time slots and you point to one set of stats over 5 years. The NSSF data , right on their website, tells a much more complete story and puts PA right in with national averages.
Pa is currently only replacing each retiring hunter with .69 new hunter or to put more realistically, for each 100 hunters that quit, 69 start.
From 2002 to 2005 license sales declined by 71 ,000 including junior license sales. During the same period over 100,000 junior licenses were sold each year. How does that equate to a replacement rate of .69?
First you take a different slice out of the years involved and then you compare the wrong numbers to one another. Your statement (modified only by my changing the color) does not include data on how many adults quit versus adults starting nor doesit equally compare theadults quitting/youths starting like the NSSF study does.
I did make a small error though. .69 is the national average. .62 is Pa's average.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/digestpdfs/2006/annual/wildlife_families.pdf
10-19-2008, 10:29 AM
#284
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Cornelius,
Since you haven't bothered to support your claims as to what the USFWS numbers are I did my own search. I haven't found anything to support your claim but I did find this report that is right smack in the middle of our new deer management era
Declines as high as 15% and increases as high as 8%Total natioanl average is a decline of 1.4%. Pa decline at 1.2% putting PA better than the national average by .2%Where is YOUR supporting information???
Since you haven't bothered to support your claims as to what the USFWS numbers are I did my own search. I haven't found anything to support your claim but I did find this report that is right smack in the middle of our new deer management era
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service National Hunting License Report
State 2004 Paid License Holders 2005 Paid License Holders Variance
AZ 182,044 196,706 8.1%
TN 730,495 775,511 6.2%
DE 18,480 19,472 5.4%
SD 232,053 243,123 4.8%
SC 210,136 220,126 4.8%
NE 165,952 170,785 2.9%
NV 58,722 60,385 2.8%
WA 193,046 197,135 2.1%
NM 103,968 105,966 1.9%
AK 98,084 99,954 1.9%
IL 330,360 336,203 1.8%
WY 136,839 139,064 1.6%
ID 250,648 254,678 1.6%
MD 120,914 122,371 1.2%
ND 147,240 148,919 1.1%
LA 277,108 280,167 1.1%
MS 234,797 236,067 0.5%
GA* 314,569 314,569 0.0%
MN 571,581 571,547 0.0%
OK 341,260 341,213 0.0%
VA 317,484 317,239 -0.1%
MT 232,869 231,936 -0.4%
AR 378,162 375,737 -0.6%
PA 1,018,664 1,006,293 -1.2%
WI 722,803 713,610 -1.3%
National Average Variance -1.4%
OR 283,327 279,140 -1.5%
KS 202,274 198,368 -1.9%
KY 350,544 343,456 -2.0%
CO 318,971 312,151 -2.1%
IA 286,607 280,398 -2.2%
CA 305,962 299,303 -2.2%
OH 442,214 431,815 -2.4%
NC 438,172 427,608 -2.4%
MO 492,500 479,959 -2.5%
NH 62,587 60,737 -3.0%
UT 153,501 148,849 -3.0%
AL 267,354 259,241 -3.0%
ME 205,600 199,102 -3.2%
TX 1,073,847 1,039,709 -3.2%
CT 54,130 52,207 -3.6%
RI 9,302 8,940 -3.9%
NJ 86,588 82,566 -4.6%
MI 832,835 789,244 -5.2%
HI 8,211 7,775 -5.3%
VT 86,512 81,265 -6.1%
WV 254,222 238,355 -6.2%
IN 303,217 282,261 -6.9%
FL 175,067 161,273 -7.9%
NY 627,749 573,970 -8.6%
MA 69,500 59,016 -15.1%
Total 14,779,071 14,575,484 -1.4%
A paid license holder is one individual, regardless of the number of
licenses purchased.
*NOTE: Georgia did not report 2005 figures.
State 2004 Paid License Holders 2005 Paid License Holders Variance
AZ 182,044 196,706 8.1%
TN 730,495 775,511 6.2%
DE 18,480 19,472 5.4%
SD 232,053 243,123 4.8%
SC 210,136 220,126 4.8%
NE 165,952 170,785 2.9%
NV 58,722 60,385 2.8%
WA 193,046 197,135 2.1%
NM 103,968 105,966 1.9%
AK 98,084 99,954 1.9%
IL 330,360 336,203 1.8%
WY 136,839 139,064 1.6%
ID 250,648 254,678 1.6%
MD 120,914 122,371 1.2%
ND 147,240 148,919 1.1%
LA 277,108 280,167 1.1%
MS 234,797 236,067 0.5%
GA* 314,569 314,569 0.0%
MN 571,581 571,547 0.0%
OK 341,260 341,213 0.0%
VA 317,484 317,239 -0.1%
MT 232,869 231,936 -0.4%
AR 378,162 375,737 -0.6%
PA 1,018,664 1,006,293 -1.2%
WI 722,803 713,610 -1.3%
National Average Variance -1.4%
OR 283,327 279,140 -1.5%
KS 202,274 198,368 -1.9%
KY 350,544 343,456 -2.0%
CO 318,971 312,151 -2.1%
IA 286,607 280,398 -2.2%
CA 305,962 299,303 -2.2%
OH 442,214 431,815 -2.4%
NC 438,172 427,608 -2.4%
MO 492,500 479,959 -2.5%
NH 62,587 60,737 -3.0%
UT 153,501 148,849 -3.0%
AL 267,354 259,241 -3.0%
ME 205,600 199,102 -3.2%
TX 1,073,847 1,039,709 -3.2%
CT 54,130 52,207 -3.6%
RI 9,302 8,940 -3.9%
NJ 86,588 82,566 -4.6%
MI 832,835 789,244 -5.2%
HI 8,211 7,775 -5.3%
VT 86,512 81,265 -6.1%
WV 254,222 238,355 -6.2%
IN 303,217 282,261 -6.9%
FL 175,067 161,273 -7.9%
NY 627,749 573,970 -8.6%
MA 69,500 59,016 -15.1%
Total 14,779,071 14,575,484 -1.4%
A paid license holder is one individual, regardless of the number of
licenses purchased.
*NOTE: Georgia did not report 2005 figures.
10-19-2008, 10:31 AM
#285
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
There was no lie in my post and you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you can't explain why 100,000 junior hunters each year can't replace the loss of 71,000 total hunters over 4 years.
10-19-2008, 10:40 AM
#286
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
There was no lie in my post and you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you can't explain why 100,000 junior hunters each year can't replace the loss of 71,000 total hunters over 4 years.
There was no lie in my post and you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you can't explain why 100,000 junior hunters each year can't replace the loss of 71,000 total hunters over 4 years.
10-19-2008, 11:41 AM
#287
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Your question, in that context makes no sense. One cant assume that junior hunters are the only new hunters nor can you compare just those two numbers to ask your question.
You want to argue about the decline in license sales ,but you don't even know how to access the PA license sales data. Now that's hoot!!!
10-19-2008, 01:42 PM
#288
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
"What do you really know about other states? "
Probably more than you. Have hunted around a dozen or so for everything from free range wild hogs to coyote to deer. Have family in 2 others,ALso have looked into the management schemes of many through the last several years. Also have read and taken part in discussion on MANY states websites where I have or have had hunting interests.
"One post from another state? I guess you can be forgiven for thatfoolish assumptionbecause you've only been on here for less than a month."
No state is going through what we are. No state has even close to the number and/or percentage of disgruntled hunters, and dont know why you'd even consider expounding on the topic,cause its not one that suits your case in the least...LOL When you have people writing books on Pa deer wars, the subject of deer hunting cannot even be brought up without arguing or derogatory comments...PGC Executive Director Carl Roe cannot even bring it up at meetings without sighing and rolling his eyes!(LOL)....And as we discussed umpteen times....Case ya missed it Pgc is being SUED, AUDITED, Has GOVERNEMENT INTERVENING, BEING PETITIONED RELENTLESSLY FOR YEARS, HUNTERS DECLINING AT OVER DOUBLE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE....And when comparing apples to apples MAYBE EVEN 5 times! Then we have 100's perhaps thousands of people removed from Pgc oriented message boards (like huntpa) in efforts of damage control for nothing other than making posts exactly like these, voicingopinions agains the faileddeer programand stating facts that support them., Almost forgot one...we have had our management team leaders that needed bodyguards....
Ha ha ha. Yeah. Just the norm. Happenin' everywhere?.....Yep. Everywhere eco-extremists are promoting extreme and excessive reduction and the wildlife management people are allowing it....Which is nowhere...Other than us.[:'(]
As for our huge downhill hunter slide...
Pa's license sales; 2001-----1047820
2006----945,892
Basically a 10% decline. NOT within the national average of 4%.
Pa license sales records: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=511&q=159015&pp=12&n=1
Another interesting thing from USFWS. A national survey found that BIG GAME hunting in the US only accounted for 2% decline in that time from. If one were to assume that all of the Pahunters who quit buying licenses in that time frame were DEER hunters, that would mean that our big game hunters quit over FIVE TIMES more than nationally. Now ALL may not have been deer hunters but I think we can agree by far the HUGE majority of our hunters are, and no reason to believe differently of those who quit.
"What do you really know about other states? "
Probably more than you. Have hunted around a dozen or so for everything from free range wild hogs to coyote to deer. Have family in 2 others,ALso have looked into the management schemes of many through the last several years. Also have read and taken part in discussion on MANY states websites where I have or have had hunting interests.
"One post from another state? I guess you can be forgiven for thatfoolish assumptionbecause you've only been on here for less than a month."
No state is going through what we are. No state has even close to the number and/or percentage of disgruntled hunters, and dont know why you'd even consider expounding on the topic,cause its not one that suits your case in the least...LOL When you have people writing books on Pa deer wars, the subject of deer hunting cannot even be brought up without arguing or derogatory comments...PGC Executive Director Carl Roe cannot even bring it up at meetings without sighing and rolling his eyes!(LOL)....And as we discussed umpteen times....Case ya missed it
Pgc is being SUED, AUDITED, Has GOVERNEMENT INTERVENING, BEING PETITIONED RELENTLESSLY FOR YEARS, HUNTERS DECLINING AT OVER DOUBLE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE....And when comparing apples to apples MAYBE EVEN 5 times! Then we have 100's perhaps thousands of people removed from Pgc oriented message boards (like huntpa) in efforts of damage control for nothing other than making posts exactly like these, voicingopinions agains the faileddeer programand stating facts that support them., Almost forgot one...we have had our management team leaders that needed bodyguards....Ha ha ha. Yeah. Just the norm. Happenin' everywhere?.....Yep. Everywhere eco-extremists are promoting extreme and excessive reduction and the wildlife management people are allowing it....Which is nowhere...Other than us.[:'(]
As for our huge downhill hunter slide...
Pa's license sales; 2001-----1047820
2006----945,892
Basically a 10% decline. NOT within the national average of 4%.
Pa license sales records: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=511&q=159015&pp=12&n=1
Another interesting thing from USFWS. A national survey found that BIG GAME hunting in the US only accounted for 2% decline in that time from. If one were to assume that all of the Pahunters who quit buying licenses in that time frame were DEER hunters, that would mean that our big game hunters quit over FIVE TIMES more than nationally. Now ALL may not have been deer hunters but I think we can agree by far the HUGE majority of our hunters are, and no reason to believe differently of those who quit.
huntingpa.forum is no where near as honest and open minded as huntingnet site here.
huntingpa.site is run and controlled by PGC/DCNR cronies ,just my opinion.
anyone that does not walk the talk on huntingpa. site, is removed.
most know this,i would bet the pgc/dcnr and other backers of the HR program are funding huntingpa. with their donations.
this is why most i know dont go on there anymore,they like here the best.
even rsb has to come over here to try to influence people here, he got away with it over at huntingpa but i bet most can see where he is coming from most of time.he cant CONTROL things here but maybe he will try to drag some others over to help him try to CONVINCE all of us that lack of deer is do to HABITAT,not HR program.
at times, respectfully,he is KNOTHEAD.
folks, you will for most part hear TRUTH over here but not over on the huntigpa site.
TRUTH will get you removed or banned.
IS HUNTINGNET a big improvement over HUNTINGPA.
you bet it is
10-19-2008, 02:04 PM
#289
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Just because you can't comprehend it ,doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. If the number of junior hunters equals or exceeds the total number of hunters lost during the perior, then any new additional adult hunters would offset the loss even more.
You want to argue about the decline in license sales ,but you don't even know how to access the PA license sales data. Now that's hoot!!!
Your question, in that context makes no sense. One cant assume that junior hunters are the only new hunters nor can you compare just those two numbers to ask your question.
You want to argue about the decline in license sales ,but you don't even know how to access the PA license sales data. Now that's hoot!!!
There was no lie in my post and you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you can't explain why 100,000 junior hunters each year can't replace the loss of 71,000 total hunters over 4 years.
As for your other statement:
You want to argue about the decline in license sales ,but you don't even know how to access the PA license sales data. Now that's hoot!!!
10-19-2008, 02:12 PM
#290
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central PA
Posts: 829
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
UPDATE!!!! All deer aren't dead, I've seen 3 !!!
Have hunted now 48 hrs in Pa andmy deer count has risen from 1 doe to 3 doe, actually 1 adult doe and 2 yearling doe.
4 Different Mountains, 2 different food plots, 2 bedding areas (at least they used to be "in the past"), and 2 different water sources. Stalk hunted, still hunted, carried my climber countless miles and alsopushed thickets for my fiance. And 3 deer is the result????? Great! At this rate in another 144 hours I might be up to a dozen deer.
Thank You Game Commission!
Have hunted now 48 hrs in Pa andmy deer count has risen from 1 doe to 3 doe, actually 1 adult doe and 2 yearling doe.
4 Different Mountains, 2 different food plots, 2 bedding areas (at least they used to be "in the past"), and 2 different water sources. Stalk hunted, still hunted, carried my climber countless miles and alsopushed thickets for my fiance. And 3 deer is the result????? Great! At this rate in another 144 hours I might be up to a dozen deer.
Thank You Game Commission!