Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
10-17-2008, 09:16 PM
#272
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: TWOWITHONE
What would you expect from the NSSF. Their giving the GC. grant monies for a program. The old saying you scratch my back Ill scratch yours.
What would you expect from the NSSF. Their giving the GC. grant monies for a program. The old saying you scratch my back Ill scratch yours.
10-18-2008, 08:49 AM
#274
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
I did,nt mention the WHOLE COUNTRY now did I BTBowhunter, keep it simple to the Keystone state.
The original point was that the NSSF data is for the WHOLE country INCLUDING PA and it puts Pa solidly in with the national averages forthe trends in hunting license sales
10-18-2008, 06:40 PM
#275
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
The original point was that the NSSF data is for the WHOLE country INCLUDING PA and it puts Pa solidly in with the national averages for the trends in hunting license sales
10-19-2008, 08:30 AM
#276
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Posts: 2,978
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Btbowhunter, No emotioninvolved at all. No more when making that statement than as if Id just lookedout the window and said thegrass was green... AndI didnt "CLAIM" anything. I stated a fact. According to US fish and wildlife the national rate of hunter license salesdecline in the US was 4% from 2001-2006. IVe posted this several times and dont know why you'd wanna play stupid.[:@]
According to PGC's online website license sales page, the decline in that exact same time frame (which also overlaps much of the sham program) shows a 10% decline...
We are losing hunters at OVER DOUBLE the national average and anyone being honest with themselves and others would only EXPECT that to be the case these days and darn well know why! (LOL)
According to PGC's online website license sales page, the decline in that exact same time frame (which also overlaps much of the sham program) shows a 10% decline...
We are losing hunters at OVER DOUBLE the national average and anyone being honest with themselves and others would only EXPECT that to be the case these days and darn well know why! (LOL)
10-19-2008, 08:35 AM
#277
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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Posts: 2,978
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
"What do you really know about other states? "
Probably more than you. Have hunted around a dozen or so for everything from free range wild hogs to coyote to deer. Have family in 2 others,ALso have looked into the management schemes of many through the last several years. Also have read and taken part in discussion on MANY states websites where I have or have had hunting interests.
"One post from another state? I guess you can be forgiven for thatfoolish assumptionbecause you've only been on here for less than a month."
No state is going through what we are. No state has even close to the number and/or percentage of disgruntled hunters, and dont know why you'd even consider expounding on the topic,cause its not one that suits your case in the least...LOL When you have people writing books on Pa deer wars, the subject of deer hunting cannot even be brought up without arguing or derogatory comments...PGC Executive Director Carl Roe cannot even bring it up at meetings without sighing and rolling his eyes!(LOL)....And as we discussed umpteen times....Case ya missed it
Pgc is being SUED, AUDITED, Has GOVERNEMENT INTERVENING, BEING PETITIONED RELENTLESSLY FOR YEARS, HUNTERS DECLINING AT OVER DOUBLE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE....And when comparing apples to apples MAYBE EVEN 5 times! Then we have 100's perhaps thousands of people removed from Pgc oriented message boards (like huntpa) in efforts of damage control for nothing other than making posts exactly like these, voicingopinions agains the faileddeer programand stating facts that support them., Almost forgot one...we have had our management team leaders that needed bodyguards....
Ha ha ha. Yeah. Just the norm. Happenin' everywhere?.....Yep. Everywhere eco-extremists are promoting extreme and excessive reduction and the wildlife management people are allowing it....Which is nowhere...Other than us.[:'(]
As for our huge downhill hunter slide...
Pa's license sales; 2001-----1047820
2006----945,892
Basically a 10% decline. NOT within the national average of 4%.
Pa license sales records: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=511&q=159015&pp=12&n=1
Another interesting thing from USFWS. A national survey found that BIG GAME hunting in the US only accounted for 2% decline in that time from. If one were to assume that all of the Pahunters who quit buying licenses in that time frame were DEER hunters, that would mean that our big game hunters quit over FIVE TIMES more than nationally. Now ALL may not have been deer hunters but I think we can agree by far the HUGE majority of our hunters are, and no reason to believe differently of those who quit.
Probably more than you. Have hunted around a dozen or so for everything from free range wild hogs to coyote to deer. Have family in 2 others,ALso have looked into the management schemes of many through the last several years. Also have read and taken part in discussion on MANY states websites where I have or have had hunting interests.
"One post from another state? I guess you can be forgiven for thatfoolish assumptionbecause you've only been on here for less than a month."
No state is going through what we are. No state has even close to the number and/or percentage of disgruntled hunters, and dont know why you'd even consider expounding on the topic,cause its not one that suits your case in the least...LOL When you have people writing books on Pa deer wars, the subject of deer hunting cannot even be brought up without arguing or derogatory comments...PGC Executive Director Carl Roe cannot even bring it up at meetings without sighing and rolling his eyes!(LOL)....And as we discussed umpteen times....Case ya missed it
Pgc is being SUED, AUDITED, Has GOVERNEMENT INTERVENING, BEING PETITIONED RELENTLESSLY FOR YEARS, HUNTERS DECLINING AT OVER DOUBLE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE....And when comparing apples to apples MAYBE EVEN 5 times! Then we have 100's perhaps thousands of people removed from Pgc oriented message boards (like huntpa) in efforts of damage control for nothing other than making posts exactly like these, voicingopinions agains the faileddeer programand stating facts that support them., Almost forgot one...we have had our management team leaders that needed bodyguards....Ha ha ha. Yeah. Just the norm. Happenin' everywhere?.....Yep. Everywhere eco-extremists are promoting extreme and excessive reduction and the wildlife management people are allowing it....Which is nowhere...Other than us.[:'(]
As for our huge downhill hunter slide...
Pa's license sales; 2001-----1047820
2006----945,892
Basically a 10% decline. NOT within the national average of 4%.
Pa license sales records: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=511&q=159015&pp=12&n=1
Another interesting thing from USFWS. A national survey found that BIG GAME hunting in the US only accounted for 2% decline in that time from. If one were to assume that all of the Pahunters who quit buying licenses in that time frame were DEER hunters, that would mean that our big game hunters quit over FIVE TIMES more than nationally. Now ALL may not have been deer hunters but I think we can agree by far the HUGE majority of our hunters are, and no reason to believe differently of those who quit.
10-19-2008, 09:04 AM
#278
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
"What do you really know about other states? "
Probably more than you. Have hunted around a dozen or so for everything from free range wild hogs to coyote to deer. Have family in 2 others,ALso have looked into the management schemes of many through the last several years. Also have read and taken part in discussion on MANY states websites where I have or have had hunting interests.
"One post from another state? I guess you can be forgiven for thatfoolish assumptionbecause you've only been on here for less than a month."
No state is going through what we are. No state has even close to the number and/or percentage of disgruntled hunters, and dont know why you'd even consider expounding on the topic,cause its not one that suits your case in the least...LOL
"What do you really know about other states? "
Probably more than you. Have hunted around a dozen or so for everything from free range wild hogs to coyote to deer. Have family in 2 others,ALso have looked into the management schemes of many through the last several years. Also have read and taken part in discussion on MANY states websites where I have or have had hunting interests.
"One post from another state? I guess you can be forgiven for thatfoolish assumptionbecause you've only been on here for less than a month."
No state is going through what we are. No state has even close to the number and/or percentage of disgruntled hunters, and dont know why you'd even consider expounding on the topic,cause its not one that suits your case in the least...LOL
You can claim whatever you want but the bottom line is that the majority of Pa hunters are not digruntled. Your buddy Bluebird even admitted it when he basically said that the majority Pa hunters just didn't know any better LOL
Are some hunters quitting because they cant go out on the Monday after Thanksgiving and see 50 deer? Sure they are! But thats not the root of the problem. The problem is nationwide and the causes are far more complex than your narrow vision will allow you to see.
It's also funny how both of you refuse to look at the whole picture and instead dwell on smaller snapshots that appear to support your agenda
Bluebird wants to only point out two different small time slots and you point to one set of stats over 5 years. The NSSF data , right on their website, tells a much more complete story and puts PA right in with national averages.
All the outdoor sports are in decline across the USA. The number one varying factor in recruiting new youth has been the degree of regulation on young hunters. States with relaxed guidelines as to age andother requirements have the best hunter recruitment stats. Pa is currently only replacing each retiring hunter with .69 new hunter or to put more realistically, for each 100hunters that quit, 69 start. That is almost dead nuts what the national average is. The states that are recruiting the best are the ones without age restrictions and Hunter ed restrictions.
You want to pick on the PGC for something? I'll give ya something legit.
Hunter ed coursesare too few and the ones conducted fill up too soon.
I belonged to a sportsmens club that tried for 15+ years to get a hunter ed programgoing in an area that sorely needed it. The problem was pure politics. The local WCO had some very old bad blood with folks long gone from the club and that club got their program going only after that WCO moved on. Being involved with youth as a scoutmaster, I get asked all the time by parents if I know of a hunter ed course they can get their kids into. The cold hard facts are that they fill up fast around here. The serious folks that plan ahead get their kids in but the last minute Louies often get shut out. With all there is to distract the younger generation, we need to reexamine how to streamline the process by which we prepare or youth to go into the field safely. The mentor program is a good start but it has a long way to go and the initial results of that have not showed up yet inthe form of changing statistics
10-19-2008, 09:31 AM
#279
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
"Statements like that just show that your responses are nothing more emotional knee jerks."
You're joking right?
"I'm sorry your hunting has changed in a negative way for you but maybe instead of clacking a keyboard, you need to get out and scout some more."
Hmmm. Did I mention my hunting?Hmmm. Conversation not going your way or supporting your position? Ha ha. I'd put my hunting skill against yoursany day of the week. Theres right and then theres wrong. Hasvery little to do with me personally. Ive scouted pleny. Have a dozen stands set on a few propertiesandnot only am I notmad about my odds of getting a buck this archery season, Im pretty much counting on it. If in doubt, please see my post and pic under "first daybuck"on "pa outdoors message board". I passed on a buck that I let a lesser experienced friend take first day of archery.
My success doesnt hinge on our "sham plan". I can find reasonable success rate IN SPITE of it. Not because of the plan being a failure or a success. Because I knowwhat Imdoing and put in far more effort than most... But sorry. That doesnt mean I cant still call a spade a spade.
"You can claim whatever you want but the bottom line is that the majority of Pa hunters are not digruntled."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha he he he.For anyonenot a friend family member or employee of pgc, audubon society or eco-extremists...Thatneedsnot even be addressed...(LOL)
"Your buddy Bluebird even admitted it when he basically said that the majority Pa hunters just didn't know any better LOL "
Seems you like to take much of 'what my buddy Bluebird" says out of context.
"Are some hunters quitting because they cant go out on the Monday after Thanksgiving and see 50 deer? Sure they are!"
Especially when many of them are seeing 0 to 5 deer.
"But thats not the root of the problem. The problem is nationwide "
That position will NEVER solve the problem, as it a position of denial.
"Bluebird wants to only point out two different small time slots and you point to one set of stats over 5 years. "
Thats because it the time slot that was addressed by usfws, and it also overlaps and correlates with much of the effects of the deer program. Since the deer program has been in effect 20 years, I dont see much use in comparing 20.
"All the outdoor sports are in decline across the USA."
And our worse than most andanyone not trying to decievecan easily understand why with so many additional nonsensical things occurring HERE.
"You want to pick on the PGC for something? I'll give ya something legit."
Everything Ive said was legit. We are dropping like a rock thanks to the miserably failed program and pgc turning the blind eye only makes it worse. The pgc/hunter relations only add to the revolutions of the downhill roll.
I dont think "kids" alonebeing addressed is the solution. Kids aint gonna sit for hours seeing little and like it. That simple. Another thing you're overlooking is that if so many ADULTS are quitting, thats one more adult that WONT be encouraging a kid to hunt or taking a kid hunting anytime soon.
Fix the deer plan. A trickle down effect would occur and there would be MANY beneficial effects instead ofsolving nothing bybeing in deniable and pretending to wonder what is going on, just so Pgc doesnt have to take responsibility for the current state of affairs.
You're joking right?
"I'm sorry your hunting has changed in a negative way for you but maybe instead of clacking a keyboard, you need to get out and scout some more."
Hmmm. Did I mention my hunting?Hmmm. Conversation not going your way or supporting your position? Ha ha. I'd put my hunting skill against yoursany day of the week.
Theres right and then theres wrong. Hasvery little to do with me personally. Ive scouted pleny. Have a dozen stands set on a few propertiesandnot only am I notmad about my odds of getting a buck this archery season, Im pretty much counting on it. If in doubt, please see my post and pic under "first daybuck"on "pa outdoors message board". I passed on a buck that I let a lesser experienced friend take first day of archery. My success doesnt hinge on our "sham plan". I can find reasonable success rate IN SPITE of it. Not because of the plan being a failure or a success. Because I knowwhat Imdoing and put in far more effort than most... But sorry. That doesnt mean I cant still call a spade a spade.
"You can claim whatever you want but the bottom line is that the majority of Pa hunters are not digruntled."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha he he he.For anyonenot a friend family member or employee of pgc, audubon society or eco-extremists...Thatneedsnot even be addressed...(LOL)
"Your buddy Bluebird even admitted it when he basically said that the majority Pa hunters just didn't know any better LOL "
Seems you like to take much of 'what my buddy Bluebird" says out of context.
"Are some hunters quitting because they cant go out on the Monday after Thanksgiving and see 50 deer? Sure they are!"
Especially when many of them are seeing 0 to 5 deer.
"But thats not the root of the problem. The problem is nationwide "
That position will NEVER solve the problem, as it a position of denial.
"Bluebird wants to only point out two different small time slots and you point to one set of stats over 5 years. "
Thats because it the time slot that was addressed by usfws, and it also overlaps and correlates with much of the effects of the deer program. Since the deer program has been in effect 20 years, I dont see much use in comparing 20.
"All the outdoor sports are in decline across the USA."
And our worse than most andanyone not trying to decievecan easily understand why with so many additional nonsensical things occurring HERE.
"You want to pick on the PGC for something? I'll give ya something legit."
Everything Ive said was legit. We are dropping like a rock thanks to the miserably failed program and pgc turning the blind eye only makes it worse. The pgc/hunter relations only add to the revolutions of the downhill roll.
I dont think "kids" alonebeing addressed is the solution. Kids aint gonna sit for hours seeing little and like it. That simple. Another thing you're overlooking is that if so many ADULTS are quitting, thats one more adult that WONT be encouraging a kid to hunt or taking a kid hunting anytime soon.
Fix the deer plan. A trickle down effect would occur and there would be MANY beneficial effects instead ofsolving nothing bybeing in deniable and pretending to wonder what is going on, just so Pgc doesnt have to take responsibility for the current state of affairs.
10-19-2008, 09:39 AM
#280
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Funny Cornelius how you provided a link to the PGC license sales data.
where's the link to the USFWS where you claim that the nationwide trend is only 4% in those 6 years?
Here's one from the NSSF showing a 4% nationwide decline in only 3 years from 2000 to 2003
http://www.nssf.org/BAK/IndustryResearch/PDF/IRG/HuntingLicSales-Trends.pdf
where's the link to the USFWS where you claim that the nationwide trend is only 4% in those 6 years?
Here's one from the NSSF showing a 4% nationwide decline in only 3 years from 2000 to 2003
http://www.nssf.org/BAK/IndustryResearch/PDF/IRG/HuntingLicSales-Trends.pdf