Buck Hunter 1

It is interesting that you place blame on the Xbow companies for enriching our huinting experiences, yet your Compound manufacturers did the same to get the PAPGC to allow Compunds. Secondly. Xbow manufacturers are at these PGC meetings, where are your Compound manufacturers?? Are the y beoing vocal as well?Where are the herds of Anti Xbow people? I have seen nothing anti in the poles being run, only negativity from organized compound clubswho DO NOT have the majority. Your stories of I was in the woods and saw to gys carrying Xbows and they were illegal blah blah sound like the old gosiip monger of the neighboir hood. You never tracked a stuck deer???? Once there stuck it is a matter of woodsmanship not shooting, and guess what that comes freom experience. Maybe if you had gotten out of your tree and explained it is private property, and showed helped them they would become better woodsmen!! but nope, you sat in your tree feeling superiorand let that deer die and meat go to waste! You exeplify the type of hunter that I do not want in the woods. I have seen a couple writers on here that make me scared for our hunting sport. The attitudes and smugness have no place in these times and in the woods. What happened to teach, share the woods make it better for our kids? No you guys spout entitlement, superiority and screw em' I'll let the wounded deer go and the Xbow guys can all go F_ _k themselves.Good luck, that is why PA is letting the PGC ruin your huntingand the Politicianserode your rights!! Because you sat in the tree and didn't get involved in going after the real game.

livbucks

Hey Bud...Were you there?????
IDID SIT IN MY TREE, YES.
I DID TELL THEM THEY WERE TRESPASSING, AND I GOT AN ARGUMENT, NOT AN APOLOGY. LASTLY, I POINTEDTHEM IN THE DIRECTION THE DOE TOOK, AND THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T SEE A HEAVY ENOUGH BLOOD TRAIL, MADE SOME EXCUSES AND LEFT.

LASTLY, I'M NOT MAKING ANYTHING UP. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THEY PARKED THEIR DODGE DURANGO IN THE LANDOWNERS DRIVEWAY AND LEFT THE DOORS WIDE OPEN WHEN THEY LEFT IT. I WAS GOING TO HAVE IT TOWED AS A DESERTED VEHICLE.
I GAVE THEM ALL THE BENEFIT OF DOUBT, BUT AS WAS EXPECTED, THEY DISAPPOINTED ME WITH THEIR ACTIONS.
IT WAS WEEKS LATER I FOUND THE DOE BTW.

BTBowhunter

Gee Greg, I am surprised at you! I cant understand for a minute why you didnt get down and have a little group hug with those tresspassers. After everyone had bonded with the group hug you could have helped them out! Myabe even showed them a few of your honey holes on the property. When they got discouraged with the blood trail you could have been a good host and told them to go on back to their hunt and then taken up their blood trail and maybe found that doe and drug it back to their Durango for them.

You had a chance to be a good ambassador for us compound guys and you blew it! I'm so disappointed with you!

livbucks

Bob, just imagine walking onto a property well before first light, that you have permission to hunt, ,that you grew up in those woods, and watch out for the elderly landowners, and see a Durango sitting with the doors wide open and nobody around. Then you proceed to your stand and see flashlights off in the woods. You go to your stand and after dawns comes, a duo appears under your stand and the scenario I related unfolds.
I was very fair to them. I asked that they finish out their hunt for the day, but please never return. It was after that they abandoned the trailing of the doe and to my complete and utter astonishment, went back to their spots and resumed hunting!!!!
We found out who they were after that, and sent an additional stern message that they never be caught on the property ever again.

Do you know why they were there?? They saw a nice 8-point cross the road there one night and arbitrarily decided to go hunt the property, without a care as to whether they were permitted to do so.

Buck Hunter 1

Oh and now your story changes from the original complaint. Now detail is provided that it wasn't the Xbow as an issue, it was the slob hunters , Bud. Again the old lady gossiping and never get the story out right! BTBowhunter, I thought you were actually working on a good solution but when you side w/ old women who gossip it makes a person wonder........So what is your complaint about the ages old Xbow technology and your fairly new technology Compound bow, or is it someone came into your entitled area?????????? This is laughable , Bud!

livbucks

I do believe the fact that they were both carrying brand new crossguns has some relevance, yes.
I anticipate this scenario playing out routinely all across the state should they be given unfettered use in Bow and arrow season. If a guy is willing to pay his dues, and get registered in an educational class, then he has some serious forthought to what he is undertaking, andI welcome that.
There are striking differences to how the new hunters coming in approach the sport and what I was taught. What's wrong with teaching these new guys the correct way to go about it?

Buck Hunter 1

Nothing. I do not like tales that have no relevance to the discussion of Xbow hunting and legalization. For every story you tell about a Xbow hunter I will triple it w/ stories of bow hunters. If you all want the hunting sport to grow then you have to baby it and teach, not discriminate and make statements that have no relevance to a dicussion but are geared towards your supposed entitlemant . Fact of it is Xbow will pass, period. Don't blame poor hunting technique, slob hunters or wounded deer that you found in the woods on the Xbow. I agree w/ education on ALL hunting but that is book learning and i can pass a test book in learning. It has no relevance on how i will be in the woods when the examiner isn't around. Is this not taught in Hunter Education and is that not what that class is for? Unless you can give me a bonified reason that you cannot share the woods during bow season w/ other hunters and I will include small gamers, turkey, muzzleloaders and centerfires as is all leagl now, then why not open those woods to all. There is no reason, there is no entitlement, no safety issue nothing except you people w/ the newest technology that want a better chance to kill a deer than me. It's just wrong!

Win.88

Buck Hunter 1.....well said.I'm new on this site and I hear a lot of twisted controversy.I was thinking about not coming here anymore, but nowit is truly becoming amusing.I think I know what to say when I ned a good laugh.

livbucks

You were seemingly in agreement with Bob and his certification idea, but now that he has shown a little agreement to whatI have said, you suddenly turn on him?
I would ask you then: Do you favor certification, or not?
Don't beat up on him. His views have softened mine to whereI would accept the idea with a certification of some kind. I respect his judgement enough to reconsider amending mine on this issue.

BTBowhunter

Buck Hunter1

I'm sorry but there is not a gentle way to say this. You were way out of line criticizin Greg for the way he handled a couple of tresspassers. He exhibited a huge amount of patience when he tried to help them by telling them where the deer went when he could have simply thrown them off the property. Something many of us would have done immediately. The fact that they had brand new crossbows is a valid point in this discussion.
It's valid because there is a real concern about who will be attracted to the crossbow. Lets face it, killing a deer with anbroadhead is far more challlenging than killing a deer with a bullet.

Lets look at the similarities between a crossbow and a compound or recurve

1 They all kill by the use of a cutting edge causing either hemmorage (bleeding)or a bilateral pneumothroax (collapsed lungs). The shock imparted by an arrow (or bolt) is not a factor in it's killing ability

2 Shot placement is crucial with all weapons propelling a broadhead so knowledge of deer anatomy is far more important than for a gun hunter Many places in a deers body that would be a sure kill with abullet are a recipe for disaster with a broadhead

8[/size]9 Almost all broadhead hits will require some tracking skills
becasue the deer usually runs off

4All of them require that the hunter get relatively close. Yes, the stickbow usually requires that you be even closer but the compound and crossbow have about the same effective range which is somewhere around 10-20% of the effective range of a good deer rifle

So far this could have come from any crossbow proponent trying to get them into archery season right?

Now lets talk about the differences

1 A crossbow does not have to be drawn in the presence of the game
BIG advantage when working closeto avery cautious animal

2 a crossbow is held in the cocked position eliminating the possibility of drawing only to have the deer get behind an obstacle and having to let down and risk exposing yourself to the deer. another advantage over other bows

3 a crossbow is easy to shoot accurately (within its range) without much practice or dedication. another advantage over other bows

4 crossbows are very noisy compared to compounds but not any faster
a disadvantage to the crossbow hunter

OK having said all that, one might think I'm pushing the crossbow but here's the problem as I see it. Hunting with any bow, vertical or horzontal requires a significantly higher degree of dedication and commitment for one to hunt responsibly with any of these weapons.

I and many other would argue that the Pennsylvania hunters that are willing to put forth the commitment and dedication required to hunt with any of the aboveare already hunting with the compound and long and and recurve bows that are now legal.

So who would go for the crossbow and why? The physically challenged already have the crossbow. So who else? It is valid to be worried that because it is relatively easy to shoot, the crossbow might attract those looking for the easy way into the season. The guy who "doesnt have time to practice a lot" ( translation: WONT MAKE THE TIME) Mandatory meaningful bowhunter education would go a long way toward eliminating this worry.

Gregs story sounds like a pair of the type of guys that we ALL should be worried about. Jerks come in all sizes and shapes and yes there are jerks like that carrying compounds and recurves too. Gregs jerks happened tio be carrying crossbows so it was valid for him to relay the story as it happened. I would argue that mandatory bowhunter ed would have either discouraged the two jerks from ever even buting the crossbows or perhaps started them out better prepared so that the wounded and unrecovered deer situation mightnever have happened.

You need to re read his story what you wrote back to him and ask yourself how you would have handled the situation if those jerks walked in on your hunt. I think if you can be honest with yourself you'll betyping Greg an apology