New York antler restrictions
 

Hi, I just started using this site, lot's of great reading and discussions here! I knew there was a pilot program in place in a couple of DMU's where a buck must have a minimum of 3 points on one side to be legal. I emailed the DEC the other day asking about any upcomingantler restrictions in my area.....I've attached my email and their reply. Any thoughts on this?

Good evening,

I live in WMU 6A, and was wondering if we can expect to see some type of
antler restrictions in place sometime soon. I practice QDM, so I don't shoot
small bucks, but my neighbors do. I would love to see something in place.
Personally, I believe width would be a better method than points. Are there
any public meetings scheduled for this area on the subject?

Thanks for your time,

Tom Rausch

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Farquhar" <[email protected]>
To: "tom" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Stephen Litwhiler" <[email protected]>; "Bill Gordon"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Antler Restrictions


Tom,
Your email was sent to me for a reply.
We are currently evaluating antler restrictions in a number of ways. A three
year pilot area in the Catskill region has been under a point restrictions,
which is being studied both by results and by hunter satisfaction. Hunter
surveys in a portion of central New York, and a broader statewide survey are
also under analysis. The statewide survey includes northern New York
hunters, and should provide insight on how desireable an anlter restriction
might be.

Specific to WMU 6A, we are aware of interest in establishing a standard
which differs from the three inch minimum we now have. We are also aware of
hunters who would prefer no changes. At this time we do not have any public
meetings scheduled locally (or elsewhere) on this topic, but may choose to
do so following full results of the other surveys.

As you have noted, there is more than one way to establish an anlter
criteria, and, depending on the desired result (protect all/some yearlings,
two year olds, etc.), the standard chosen will vary. Additionally, because
deer growth rates and antler development differs around the state, a "one
size fits all" approach will not yield similar results in all places. These
are the kinds of discussions we will need to have in order to ensure any
changes are accepted, effective and well understood by all involved.

I hope this information is helpful in that much related to antler standards
is as much a social preference to hunters as it is biological. From where I
sit, the discussion looks like it will move forward, and in the not too
distant future.

Jim


Jim Farquhar
Wildlife Biologist
NYSDEC, Region 6
Watertown, NY 13601
(315) 785-2261

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

My opinion let people hunt for what they want . You want to see bigger bucks in your area pass on small ones. If someone else decides to shoot it well, that still leaves one more in the woods.

I think they could accomplish the same thing with a one buck rule, no more multiple buck tags.

NYS kills some very nice deer every year. AR are a feel good response as far as I'm concerned. Your still killing off most of your deer with great potential before thier time.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

IMO, AR will help the health of the herd.I wouldn't like a one buck rule, the season would be over as far as buck hunting is concerned, in just a few days. I saw 8deer on opening day of bow this year, 6 of them werebucks. 2 - 8's, 2 -4's,and the rest spikes. It would be nice to see more mature deer in the woods. Why not shoot a doe for meat instead of a spike? Opening day was an exception this year, overall this season, I saw tons more does than bucks. Our buck to doe ratio is way out of whack and at least on our property we're exceeding the carrying capacity of the land.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Explain how.

That would be your choice, as it would be for a guy to shoot a spike and and his buck hunting. Why pull the trigger on two six points in one year?

Why should you be able to force that on someone. Why not shoot a doe instead of a 7 pt?


Ohio and a few other states use the one buck rule and they kill plenty of mature bucks.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: Charlie P

Explain how.

Along with antler restrictions, the harvesting of more does would take place. The deer herd in this area exceeds the carrying capacity of the land. This hurts the health of the herd.

That would be your choice, as it would be for a guy to shoot a spike and and his buck hunting. Why pull the trigger on two six points in one year?

Who's saying I would shoot two six pointers? I shot an 8 pointer on opening day of bow this year, then didn't shoot another buck. I did shoot 2 does though.

Why should you be able to force that on someone. Why not shoot a doe instead of a 7 pt?

Good question....why not? If it's an immature 7 point, why not let it walk so it can reach it's potential?

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Then you need more doe permits, AR alone have little to nothing to do with a healthy herd.

Not saying you would, alot of people would to fill their tags.



Cool, How old was that 8 point?

I proably would but I don't care if the guy down the ridge shoots him. Let's use the 8 pt you shot as an example,it would still be legal with AR's in placeif it was 2.5 yrs old it would far from it's potential right? Even at 3.5 it still is far from it's potential. Now lets take the 7 pt and make it a six with no brow( buddie shot one just like this this year)tines for arguments sake and it's mature. If the state decides it a 4 pt per side area you can't shoot it,even though it's genes aren't the best thing for the area.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

I do not want antler restrictions of any sort. I hunt in a unit that hadn't given out doe permits for a couple of years and issued a very limited amount this past year. If I was only allowed to shoot a buck that was a six or an eight point, I would have little reason to hunt at all. Many hunters don't care about antlers. What difference do they make anyway, other than give a hunter something more to brag about? The state should be in charge of controlling deer numbers and NOT to manage a herd for trophy hunters. In my opinion it is nothing but baloney that antler restriction rules help out deer herds. It is nothing but a self-serving theory devised by trophy hunters and little else. As I said, the states real purpose of a hunting season is to control deer numbers. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter one ounce how many antler points a buck might have when it gets gunned down by the hunter except of course to the trophy hunter who now thinks he has something to brag with. I myself would have NO problem with a one buck rule in NYS. I find it funny how some that want antler restrictions at the same time don't like the one buck rule. That tells me all I need to know right there.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Good discussion Charlie.....you make some great points! For sure, AR isn't the answer to all the problems. Antler width can be used also, and I personally think it's better than AR. Neither one is perfect. The perfect solution would be to age the deer before shooting. Depending on the situation (how much time before the shot opportunity disappears) this can be difficult and is asking a lot of people.

The 8 pointer Ishot was only 2 1/2, and definitely had more potential. I was happy to take him with my bow though. I made the decision not to shoot another buck last seasonunless it was at least 3 1/2. I saw a few nice bucks after that, but none were at least that old, so I let them go.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

[:@]AR restrictions are not trophy restrictions. Big differences between QDM and Trophy Mgt

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

I don't think you could implement a width restriction, that would be nightmare.

Steve, Made a good point about numbers, the state has enough of a problem getting an accurate count on what was killed.

Things I like about the one buck rule is.
[ol][*]It gives the hunter the option to shoot whatever makes him happy. It's not forceing any type of restriction on what type of buck you shoot.[*]It makes him use his doe permits to fill the freezer.Which helps the herd as far as a natural balence. Deer aren't born at a 8 doe to 1 buck ratio.Every year you here about guy's shooting their two bucks and not filling doe tags.[*]It will ina very short peroid of time achieve what AR's are intended to do let bucks get some age on them.[*]It educates (for a lack of a better word) a hunter to what potential the bucks have. If you start seeing more bucks and better bucks I'm talking body and rack size, the natural tendency would be to wait for a nicer one, but if you want shoot that spike go ahead. It doesn't force a trophy hunter mentality on anyone.[*]It will make hunting better, and more interesting.[*]I also think it would help to get more kids in the woods.[/ol]
Jf5, AR is far thing from QDM.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

...then itseven further from Trophy mgt.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

AR has NOTHING to do with what QDM claims is "herd health".
If it is "herd healthy" to only take older bucks, why is it not "herd healthy" to pass on young does?
Are the genes a buck has when breeding at 1 1/2 any different when he is 3 1/2?

Want more bucks??? Find a way to stop the slaughter of button bucks - up to 1/3 of the deer shot as does every year are YOUNG (button)BUCKS!!

If all the supporters of mandatory AR who claim it is for "herd health" are serious, then they should be willing to use their buck tag on ANY buck they kill.
Propose the mandatory tagging of buttons with the one tag many AR people want (or even both if bow hunting) as a condition to AR and see where the support will go.

I let the little ones go but will fight to the end any attempt for statewide AR when all long term studies show it to be detrimential to the purported goals and the DEC is telling us it can't work statewide.

jf5 - one liners don't do much to support your position.

Steve

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

That's another thing I'm in favor of BB gets a buck tag, but don't know how it could be implemented.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

We debated this two years ago, and AR topic has been beat to death. I have no desire to even discuss my position. Its a waste of time.

If you like to shoot spikes, god bless ya. If NY keeps it 3" rule, I don't care really. Shoot away.As long as its legal. I too see very few bucks, so I know what its like to want the opportunitys you have.

It just gets real old when its dismissed as just being for trophy hunters to show off, brag, etc. When its so much more than that. Thats not an arguement, its an insult to fellow hunters.No different than if some pro AR guy came here insulting me or you as being less of a hunter for shooting spike or forks.

And having a 3 or 4 point a side rule isn't trophy mgt. My "one liners" was to makle that point only. Not to debate a dead horse issue.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Although I would be in favor of AR's, I think a one buck rule would be great. One buck for all season, from earlybow season through to late MZ season. If someone wants to smack a spike, go for it, you just spent your tag. Yes, BB's deserve a buck tag.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

You guys have really got me rethinking the one buck rule. To be honest, I have never really discussed that or thought it through. It definitely would make a person think twice before pulling the trigger. As far as having to burn your tag on a button buck, I don't think that's a good idea. People would be very reluctant to shoot does for fear of making a mistake.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Read the rest of my thread.

Yes, it was done 2 years ago, 18 months ago, last year, and daily somewhere in the state. The rash of hunters shows featuring horn porn are making it a continuing issue. Some seem to think you aren't worthy as a hunter if you don't limit your hunting to what they define as a "shooter" (I hate that term) and want to make laws to support them. Your motives may very well be different, but one liners don't make/support a point - they are simply sound bites that add nothing to the discussion. Well supported presentations can and will change minds.
Want statewide changes? First, demonstrate they are needed statewide. Then be prpared to show the changes proposed will in fact do something positive for all and not hurt like they have in other states.

Steve

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

If they are indeed serious about increasing the "health" of the herd, they should embrace ANY protection of young bucks. While mistakes will happen and I have shot a few, you can learn to identify them rather easily. Education is the key.

Steve

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: SteveBNy

If they are indeed serious about increasing the "health" of the herd, they should embrace ANY protection of young bucks. While mistakes will happen and I have shot a few, you can learn to identify them rather easily. Education is the key. SteveBNy


I agree a person can learn to identify them rather easily.Theirshort snout and small bodyare good indicators this may be a bb, A lot of times the first deer out into a field is a button buck...they seem to be a little braver at that age. Personally, I just wait for a big doe to show up, then I know for a fact I'm not making a mistake. I give the guys that hunt my property a little ribbing if they make a mistake. I cut off the buttons and put them on my "wall of shame" out in the shop. :D

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

we like the AR here in wmu2g of pa. where i hunt BUT hunters are not letting it work ..

kids now from diapers to 16 can kill a small buckand not have to look at 3 point to side..

adults are using the kids tags to shoot ANY BUCK,they dont even look, its brown its down with kids tag...

the bucks we are LEGALLY getting with 3 points are very healthy deer,so we like the restriction very much BUT dont like what we are hearing hunters are doing with kids tags..

this should stop and only KID age 12 can kill a buck without 3 points to side his or her first year..

this wouldreduce the amount of small bucks that are shot to get mature and slow down the BROWN ITS DOWN WITH KIDS TAG hunters....

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

That's a shame that people abuse the system like that. I can totally understand your frustration. What is the actual legal age a kid must be to get a tag?

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Guys, take this with a grain of salt. While there will always be the type of slimeball that would take advantage of a kid, this is not a real problem in PA. It's a real problem only in the imagination of the poster who feels the need to hijack almost any thread to get on this little soapbox about this imaginary problem.

To get back on topic, You all must have seen the controversy over PA's antler restrictions. It hasnt worked perfectly, but it certainly has improved the age class and therefore quality of our bucks overall. AR's arent QDM. But in a state like ours, and yours, with the hunting pressure the deer have to deal with, it will cause an improvement in the average age and therefore the antler quality of your bucks.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

As you say, AR's probably improve antler size due to letting bucks live an extra year or two. No one will convince me that there are ANY other benefits to the herd in general. Whether a buck gets shot at 1 1/2, 2 1/2, or any other age makes NO difference in controlling deer numbers which is why deer hunting seasons are established in the first place. Any AR restrictions that are put in effect are solely to make the hunters who value antlers happy and give them some hope that they will one day shoot a big buck since they apparently can't kill one otherwise. There is absolutely NO other value to them in my opinion. If hunters would just get this horn mentality out of their heads they might enjoy the outdoors a whole lot more and be complaining a whole lot less!

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

[Read the rest of my thread.

but one liners don't make/support a point - [/quote]

I think your missing it. My one liner is right to the point, that AR's are not trophy mgt. Thats it.

I have no point to make about AR's in NY or any other state. And I don;t want to define shooter for anyone. Legal deeris all I care about...good luck out there..

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Well your looking no better then what your complaining about with that statement. Who are you to determine how a person gets enjoyment from their hunt. If I choose to horn hunt as long as it doesn't effect your hunting why should you care. If I let bucks walk it extends my season, if I don't get one because of that well that leaves another buck in the woods to sutvive another year.


If I decided to shoot the first bick I got a chance at I'd be done buck hunting pretty quick every year. I enjoy seeing deer and want to shoot mature bucks, because I shot alot of 1.5 yr olds and ot's not that much of a challenge, but I'm not asking anyone to hunt my way. However I do see the herd being out of whack according to what nature intended. I think we should strive for the same birth ratio buck to doe that you see nature trying to acheive.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

i will PM you do to a STALKER on here that spends his time following me from post to post..
he hunts privateland,has motive and is guide..
if you are interested in what happens on privateland,he is your boy!

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

As usual Sproulman goes

handle your soap opera witha PM would ya?

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

I will not deny that I am not a fan of trophy hunting by any stretch, but I could care less what someone else wants to shoot or doesn't want to shoot and was not complaining about this. I have hunted long enough to see many ugly sides of hunting. In just about all the cases I witnessed it revolved around the almighty big rack. Be it the jealousy, the poaching, outfitters who rip hunters off, hunters who get p*ssed when the trophy doesn't measure up, the hunter who gets p*ssed when a big racked buck walked off his lease with all the food plots and got shot by the neighbors, etc. At the same time I have NO doubt that plenty of meat hunters have pulled their share of shananigans also knowing what hunters are capable of. I realize that different people hunt for different reasons, but I think it would do everyone good (most especially the people who somehow think horns are everything and the only thing good about hunting) if people were just grateful for anything they were lucky enough to shoot and for the remaining natural world we still have left. Everything else is really insignificant any which way you look at it in my opinion.

RE: New York antler restrictions
 

Good point.