Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Hunting buddy from southwestern PA reports finding several small bucks left in the woods. Any thoughts on how that experiment went?

Edited by - Rob/PA Bowyer on 01/18/2003 09:58:19

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RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

a friend of mine his uncle shot a 4 point that wasn't legal and turned himself in and paid the $25.00 fine few days later the game commision got ahold of him and gonna give him another fine for not properly identifing his target which carries a $300.00 fine everyone at the store that heard this said they will never turn them-self in.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

I think it's great. You build up that herd of BIG BONES and I'll have to breakdown and renew my PA hunting license in a couple years.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

There are going to be a few illegal kills no matter what the penalty. I think a $25 fine is ridiculous. If they really want to get the point across they should announce ahead of time what it will be and make it painful. The &quot;Failure to Identify your target&quot; add on fine was to make up for the screw up in the first fine I believe. I really have to believe they intended it to be more than $25. Some one knew the judge or something so the DNR took matters into their own hands. Probably if the laws were really read from front to back there is not a law saying you MUST identify your target. It's probably a suggestion.. one of the 10 commandments of hunting etc.... but probably not a written law with a penial code number.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Loss of hunting license for people who leave deer like that sounds like a great idea! That is terrible, the least the people could do is take it home and butcher it, make something out of it, instead of waste. I wish Kansas had an antler restriction.
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RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think it's great. ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I think the fine is supposed to be $25. I suspect something else is going on with the second fine.

beprepn

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RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Personally I feel the point restriction for PA is the best thing to happen and should have been implemented years ago. That being said I think the reporting of small bucks left in the woods is more than not, rumors and the start of urban myth....now I'm not saying it didn't happen, after all, this is PA and although I want to think the majority of hunters in PA are ethical, I know in every crowd, their lurks pathetic people. Those who left any deer laying in the woods, poachers and not hunters. BUT of those found, I wonder how many were shot by youths and just simply not recovered...and then speculation occurs. Again, I'm sure it happened but no more or less than the finding of doe that were shot in our previous antlered only seasons..

It's no secret to anyone that if a buck has a chance to grow for one or two seasons what can happen in antler growth. Also, it's no secret that a buck isn't even considered mature until he's 5.5 years old or more so it only makes common sense to allow immature bucks to grow to an older age. How can anyone argue with that.

The biggest whine going into point restrictions was for our youth hunters....that being considered, they allowed youths to shoot any buck....then the whine became, but they'll be left to rot in the woods, again, it probably happened to some scale, but no one will truely know the numbers, it's mostly speculation and that it happen at all is terrible and pathetic.

If someone has factual information against this past point restrictions, I truly would like to read it...along with the resource the facts came from. Most people preach from emotion so what is truly wrong with allowing bucks to grow. Too many facts point in the positive direction not to implement them.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

David,

You get your old butt up here to Pennsylvania this archery season and help me thin this heard out some <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Seriously though, if you decide to hunt Pa next year, my hunting grounds are open. I got too many deer running around here to control. I bet that I could put you in an area where you would see a dozen or more deer every evening.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet



Check out my hunting PICS here http://community.webshots.com/user/buckmagnet

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

BM... I did get a PA license a couple years ago and almost renewed this year but had several trips to NY planned and backed out. I'll probably get it for next year. Maybe we'll hook up somewhere.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Rob

There is absolutly nothing wrong with letting bucks live to be hoss's later in life.

However there is a HUUUUGE difference between QAM and QDM! Its a shame from a wildlife biology standpoint to see them take the QAM route on a whitetails! Almost a joke considering the amount of animals out there most states would rather see them shot to reduce the numbers as a hole. Even to the tune of preCWD days in WI of having automobile insurance agencys suing the state fish and wildlife biologists for not doing there jobs.........and &quot;we&quot; as hunters are only concerned with scores this, number ofpoints etc etc......What a shame it is to see a state follow such ludicrious reasoning!

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

I think that it worked great and I hope that they continue the restrictions in the future. This is the first year that our group saw bucks every day while driving deer. The last 10 years you were real lucky to see a buck after the first day of rifle was over. I only heard of one three point found in the woods in our area. I'm sure there were a few small bucks shot and left in the woods but still there were alot of young bucks that survived deer season and that is great to see.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

the local paper reported 1900 off limit bucks were reported taken taken with a $25.00 fine but 24 people were fined $500.00 for not identifing their target I don't see how some were fined $25.00 and some were fined $500.00???

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Lil,

This is a thread about the antler restriction PA has imposed this past season and will continue next season. PA is practicing QDM, not QAM. Doe license allocation was about doubled so the herd could be reduced to suitable numbers but at the same time, the buck/doe ratio need improved thus the point restrictions. Reduce the overall herd number by taking of does, allow bucks to mature and give a better buck to doe ratio for herd balance....sounds like QDM to me.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

I agree with Rob. The verdict is still out on its effectiveness, but I cannot see how it could produce anything but desirable results over time.

If you don't hunt PA its hard to fathom how many hunters turn out for the rifle season. Before, if it had antlers it was a target. Translation: about 4 out of 5 bucks were killed most years. Many years doe tags were not sold out in some counties...no so with the new restrictions. Those doe tags sold pretty fast.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Rob, You hit the nail right on the head!

vc1111, I agree completely!

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Rob LIl has it right QAM quality antler mangagement. The way Ar was used this year by Dr. ALt and his people was ridiculous. It was a smoke screen to get herd reduction thru.Do you honestly think that the hunters of Pa would have bought into herd reduction without the thoughts of big bucks running thru their heads? How many people would have even bought Ar without the good Dr. using the antlers as props.Hunting is an individual sport. I am not saying that people dont hunt together but the majority hunt alone.If a person is happy with what they shot why should anyone else care? I am not for Ar dont think it is neccessary.There is no hard scientific proof that it s needed.As the way its being done now it is one big experiment.If and when there is sufficent proof to sway my opinion I dont feel it is needed.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

I hunted Pa the year before and got my first deer ever. The deer wouldnt have been legal this year though. (Good thing too it was a poor rack and would have spread his poor genetics around)I wanted to go back to another friends to hunt but the doe tags would have been sold out and I would have had a almost useless antlered deer tag. If I could have just a doe tag I would have went. So I went to Kentucky instead.

But I hope it all works out for the best for you Pa residents. Hopefully my friend from Pa will come here to Ohio where he can take whatever his pleasure is.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Many of us, and many WCO's reported the same, have been asking that people tell us exactly where they saw the bucks laying and they can never do it. It usually goes to, &quot;Well it wasn't actually me, but a good friend that saw them.&quot; Okie-dokie there Red Ranger. :)

This is the first year I didn't find any dead deer while hunting. Same with many of my friends. Our safety record improved also. Maybe forcing people to take a hard look is helping.

There is no $300.00 fine. If everyone that reported they knew someone that got the other than $25 fine were right, there would be thousands of them, not just 24.

I think we have to recall the actual situation we were in before we started this AR journey. We were only carrying over about 25% of our total bucks. Very few of these are mature bucks. Our herd is composed of 90% yearling bucks in many areas and probably 80% statewide. So they really had a poor management program with this high of a harvest and that much of it composed of yearlings. So it would be hard to argue for doing nothing, as you had very little to lose. How could you make it worse than what it was?

So now we have a program that should allow about half of our normal harvest of yearlings to get at least another year older. And once they make it there, they become harder animals to harvest. So we are significantly adding to the number of 2.5 year old bucks.

I have seen some concern that it really can happen that when we pass on the yearling, many will harvest a older deer later on. We should of known this before! I'm hearing we did in fact harvest bigger deer this year. Did that happen, or was it because of the low harvest the year before, the great mast crop and mild winter just made our bucks better racked?

Let's study it and take a hard look at the research. But let's do something!

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Mark you keep saying let the research dictate what we do. I ask you what reasearch?There is no HARD scientific proof to back up what Dr.Alt and his team say is necassary.The way things are being done now is just a big expeiment with nothing to back it up.How much longer are we going to have them experimenting on the deer herd? As for other things that are being done herd reduction is not needed state wide certain areas yes but not all over.As for the new WMUs. I am nt sure about them yet as they stand I dont like them. My county gets cut into 4 differant units. To hunt the places i hunt now I would have to get 3 differant tags.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Somewhat related to this discussion...Mark's comments reminded me to mention something I found unusual this year...many, many anterless deer left to rot in the woods. The strangest thing was that they were all within 80 yards of several decent-sized roadways and one of them had been gutted and then left next to the gut pile. I found all of them on the local game lands on the 23rd of December...following the end of our rifle season.

I wanted to puke.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Dale, reducing the herd to balance with the habitat is sound science that has been researched and documented with several studies, so I guess you are talking about AR. Pennsylvania's situation is unique in the world. No one else harvested as high a percent of the bucks or harvests more 1.5 year olds than we do. It would probably take a thousand years for this damage to become evident in the genes, but I think it is basic animal biology to know that nature never intended immature bucks to do the breeding. Just like all of the other species, but man, thank goodness, they are suppose battle to see who is the dominate male and gets the right to breed the females. That is how it should be for many reasons I'm sure you know of and would agree with if you didn't feel it was being forced on you. How do you believe it would hurt to restore this natural age strcture balance? We are doing buck and fetus studies that would tell us if it is the wrong way to go. Let's give them a few years to see how it works out.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

My two cents are the AR is great.

The herd we hunt on private land is well out of proportion we counted at least 35 deer in our 400 acres that we hunt. We do push the deer using deer drives for Muzzleloader season. The farmer and his relatives sit during rifle and don't push the deer around, we also hunt this farm during archery. So we are pretty sure our count is accurate if we see 35 deer run out of section A running to section b or elsewhere that is not a complete count of the entire population in the area but it does show a high percentage of the deer in that area and after hunting this area for over 20 years we know the patterns of where they run, bed, feed etc...

We noticed out of the 35 Deer there were 2 Nice 8-10 point bucks, 1 six point buck, 1 4 pointer and a spike. That is 5 bucks and 30 baldies. Now we are sure that out of the 30 baldies there are some buttons mixed in to that group but I think it is safe to say that 20 are females. That would mean that for each of the 3 older 6 points or more anlered deer would be an approximately 6-7 does per buck. so 6-1 or 7-1 ratio is pretty high. Even if you counted a 4 point in there that decreases the ratio to 4 or 5 to 1. Still a bit high. Our estimate is that the 4 and the spike are probably 1.5 year olds the 6 might even fall into that category. My point being that the bucks do have a lot of does to be breed. And we know 2 legal bucks were and 6 does were harvested this year. Still figures into the ratio as really 5-1 We are anxious to see what the impact of letting the year olds live longer but are curious as to what happens next year or the year after once the initial bucks are now legal. Does that create a year of barely legal carnage eventually or does the herd establish its males so that then after the adjustment period there are now more older bucks?

Our theory is that the number/ratio stays about the same but the average age is a bit older. We think it will mean more looks at some smaller legal bucks in the first few years but should be nice to get more looks at antlers with the bow. We started our own QDM 3 years ago we agreed to let 4 pointers go 2 seasons ago and this year finally saw over 6 different deer with 8+ points at different stands and got to watch some great rutting activity this past fall.

So is our herd out of whack? You bet it is. We do take a few does each year. Is the age of our bucks a little older than in 1999 yes. Do we think the ratio should be what Gary Alt says no. We think the increased doe kill is detrimental to a point. Balance is good but what good are the boys without the females to keep them there? If Alt's ratio came into effect we could lose a ton of our bucks that we have selectively harvested for 2 years. They are animals and respond to instinct if herd of deer on adjoining properties has more does then they will follow their animal instaincts and run to them and vice versa.

Let them go to let them grow. But the boys won't stay if there are no does!
Wow that last line was a bit poetic.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

I cant wait until there deer are bigger so that i can get my state back from all the pa hunters.. I cant even get a quality hunt anymore!!!

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

We still had 7/14 guys connect on legal bucks, in the &quot;small-buck&quot; Federal forest, Aleghany Resevoir area, our camp average for the past several years (7bucks). Am extremely excited about next year!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Cablguy119,

For figuring Buck:Doe ratios, you don't count the fawns, only yearlings on up. If you have 5 bucks(including the 3 yearlings), then out of the remaining 30, how many are not fawns? Healthy areas are 2+ fawns per doe, with 1 per doe being pretty bad. Even if you look at 1.5 fawns per doe, with a few yearling does thrown in that were not bred, you probably only have about 15 does-maybe 10 adult, 5 yearlings, and 15 fawns. It looks like your ratio is probably about 1:3-not that bad. Your overall population numbers would probably be a little high, probably by 5-6 deer, if you have good habitat, cover, and food, just looking at a 40-45 deer per square mile-a little high, but not bad if you have the cover, food, and water.

It looks like you could thin a few of the adult does, bringing the average age and experience down a little to make the remaining younger does more reliant on your area, while bringing the average age of your bucks up, with maybe another 1 or 2 thrown in to help the sex ratio.

I don't think you are as bad off as you think!

Also, I had 6 different 8 points I had pictures of on my 130 acres I never actually saw all year, hunting or scouting! You'd be amazed what stays hidden in the older buck category, or leaves the property all together if you drive the heck out of it. Older bucks (2.5+), will not stay around if the property is driven, rarely, especially more than 1 time. Driving deer is probably the most detrimental action that can take place on a managed property. Driving deer is to management the same as arson is to a firefighter!

Other than the driving, your property sounds pretty good.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

North Jeff
Part of the property we hunt on is in a borough where you can't discharge a firearm so we have no options except to drive out some portions of it. You would be amazed at how many deer use certain areas as a safe haven. One area in our property in particular is about a half mile long strip about 150 Yards wide wooded area with the woods and a stream running through it. At one end is a busy highway, homes and businesses and at the other end 400 plus acres of corn. So starting at the road and pushing them out from the edge of town is almost a neccessity because this patch is such good habitat.

And like I said we don't drive it till late muzzleloading and I am not talking about 10 guys tearing through it either I am talking 2 guys going through really wide sections many break back on us.We know the pressure isn't the best thing, but as long as we don't completely force them through by having a wall of people walking through they actually stick in the woods. We had one of our hunters posting at the side of the drive and he saw 5 deer that broke back on us, 5 minutes later come back to the exact spot they were in when we came through.

Our estimation about on par with what you said about probably needing 5-6 less does. It is great habitat with cornfields, and 2 streams running though the property and good cover. Large patches of woods running along sides of fields and many patches in between.

Driving the woods 3 days in late muzzleloading season is not a crime. It isn't like we are a large hunting club with 20+ guys tearing through the woods with reckless abandon and folllowing a creedo of &quot;brown and down&quot;

We know the adjoining property owner (parcelled out his land to the developer) hunts with a large group of guys that shoots everything and we think that our herds large numbers in the late season is attributted to the deer being pressured by them.

Plus we know the property will be receiving more displaced animals in the coming years due to an adjoining 200 acres is being turned into a housing development and local school building planned for construction on nearby parcel. We know short term that we need to manage the numbers due the likely increase in other deer coming on our property. We have seen the average buck age on the land go up over the last 3 years and we are glad to see that.

And we want to see that trend continue how great it was this year seeing legal deer and passing on them. I can't wait to break out in nervous adreniine rush of seeing the big hoss of a buck coming towards me and possibly taking a shot at him with my bow.

The point is AR will only work if people let them, we know the loss of nearby habitat is going to affect our hunting property. How it affects it we can't say for sure. Will it mean more deer from there come over maybe. does it possibly isolate our herd a bit more yep. Does it mean our herd moves on to another place maybe but doubtful the corn, woods and stream aren't moving anytime soon so faced with the likelyhood of having more animals we had no choise but to think about what the future of our herd and property will be.

RE: Views on PA Rack Restriction
 

Cableguy119,

You are right, that type of driving doesn't sound too bad, especially seeing as you probably aren't losing any deer from surrounding landowners, and it's not a season long activity.

Sounds like you guys have a great piece of property, with the herd just about in balance!

My goal on my property is to have a good portion of 2.5 year olds, with one or two older ones around every year. We(mostly I-my dad came up to hunt for 1.5 days last year) basically target the 2.5 year olds, if we feel like shooting one, but might hold out for a bigger one. Definately won't settle for a yearling though, whether it be a spike or 8 point. The rule on my property is 8-point or better for my dad, as he may make a mistake and shoot a yearling 8-point, but no one has ever seen a yearling 8-point around here.

Sounds like you are off to a great start, and the AR's are a great tool to helping you achieve your goal, and greatly reduce the harvest of yearlings on adjoining properties.

Now if MI will only take notice and............

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.