PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
09-16-2007, 08:53 AM
#61
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
Pahick; I know you didn’t say anything about deer expanding their range. That was “my point.” You picked out what you wanted to respond to in order to support your view on deer numbers, and then ignored the other part of it.
I’m glad you now admit; “we have greater number of deer in areas that were previously low.
You do that again with the, “our GC doesn’t even know how many deer are in the state.”
You totally ignore that their methods have been reviewed and found scientifically valid.
How on earth would you, a single individual, “know for a fact,” that “the numbers are not even close to what the PGC says?”
Nobody with one ounce of brains believes it is even possible to come up with “accurate and precise” numbers when estimating wildlife.
You imply, but do not say, that there is a conspiracy to lie about deer numbers. Do you think hundreds of people making reports got their heads together and agreed to lie and never let it slip out that they lied?
Show me one state that can make a case that their numbers are ‘accurate.”
They all go on “best estimates” and your wild claims have absolutely zero basis in fact.
I suppose in those other states poachers call in their harvests??????
Then you go on to point out that deer vehicle accidents are getting “higher and higher.”
Huh? Don’t you even see the relationship to more deer = more accidents?
Where on earth do you get this stuff?
Why don’t “you” post one single factual statement, not just “opinion,” that supports that PGC numbers don’t work?
I’m glad you now admit; “we have greater number of deer in areas that were previously low.
You do that again with the, “our GC doesn’t even know how many deer are in the state.”
You totally ignore that their methods have been reviewed and found scientifically valid.
How on earth would you, a single individual, “know for a fact,” that “the numbers are not even close to what the PGC says?”
Nobody with one ounce of brains believes it is even possible to come up with “accurate and precise” numbers when estimating wildlife.
You imply, but do not say, that there is a conspiracy to lie about deer numbers. Do you think hundreds of people making reports got their heads together and agreed to lie and never let it slip out that they lied?
Show me one state that can make a case that their numbers are ‘accurate.”
They all go on “best estimates” and your wild claims have absolutely zero basis in fact.
I suppose in those other states poachers call in their harvests??????
Then you go on to point out that deer vehicle accidents are getting “higher and higher.”
Huh? Don’t you even see the relationship to more deer = more accidents?
Where on earth do you get this stuff?
Why don’t “you” post one single factual statement, not just “opinion,” that supports that PGC numbers don’t work?
09-16-2007, 09:17 AM
#62
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 9
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
ORIGINAL: NorthPA
You do that again with the, “our GC doesn’t even know how many deer are in the state.”
You totally ignore that their methods have been reviewed and found scientifically valid.
You do that again with the, “our GC doesn’t even know how many deer are in the state.”
You totally ignore that their methods have been reviewed and found scientifically valid.
How on earth would you, a single individual, “know for a fact,” that “the numbers are not even close to what the PGC says?”
Nobody with one ounce of brains believes it is even possible to come up with “accurate and precise” numbers when estimating wildlife.
You imply, but do not say, that there is a conspiracy to lie about deer numbers. Do you think hundreds of people making reports got their heads together and agreed to lie and never let it slip out that they lied?
Show me one state that can make a case that their numbers are ‘accurate.”
They all go on “best estimates” and your wild claims have absolutely zero basis in fact.
I suppose in those other states poachers call in their harvests??????
Then you go on to point out that deer vehicle accidents are getting “higher and higher.”
Huh? Don’t you even see the relationship to more deer = more accidents?
Where on earth do you get this stuff?
Why don’t “you” post one single factual statement, not just “opinion,” that supports that PGC numbers don’t work?
Nobody with one ounce of brains believes it is even possible to come up with “accurate and precise” numbers when estimating wildlife.
You imply, but do not say, that there is a conspiracy to lie about deer numbers. Do you think hundreds of people making reports got their heads together and agreed to lie and never let it slip out that they lied?
Show me one state that can make a case that their numbers are ‘accurate.”
They all go on “best estimates” and your wild claims have absolutely zero basis in fact.
I suppose in those other states poachers call in their harvests??????
Then you go on to point out that deer vehicle accidents are getting “higher and higher.”
Huh? Don’t you even see the relationship to more deer = more accidents?
Where on earth do you get this stuff?
Why don’t “you” post one single factual statement, not just “opinion,” that supports that PGC numbers don’t work?
Hmm, im making this up? Purely my opinion? Believe what you may. Do you listen to hunters? Do you listen to businessmen? I attended numerous meetings in Clinton and Potter counties for the last 4 years where not only the public, but local business has been asking for answers, and help. You tell me why snowmobiling and atving has suprassed hunting in revenue for business in the northern tier. Explain to me why if the DCNR is so hunter friendly for years they would close all access roads for the majority of the year, only to open them for does season. In recent years(2-3) that has changed somewhat to their credit.
As far as deer vehicle accidents are concerned, did I say what specific areas? No I didnt. I already stated we have greater number of deer in certain areas. Are those areas controlled by the GC? Most likely not. Deer vehicle accidents are increasing in metropolitan areas at a greater rate than anywhere else in the state according to lobbyists. Even though those areas specifically do not affect the majority of hunters, they still need to be included in final numbers.
Im not going to argue any longer with you, as you only believe what you see on paper. I challenge you to visit our northern tier, or other hard hit areas by the PGC's management plan and you tell them the PGC has their priorities straight. You tell them the DCNR has their best interest at heart. If you leave with your shirt intact you just won the lottery!
09-16-2007, 11:02 AM
#63
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
Nope I didn’t ignore anything. The PGC acknowledges they use “best scientific estimates” and I agree that there is no such thing as an “accurate” number and it actually isn’t even possible because the number changes each and every day of the year.
That would be due to the things you mentioned, poaching, vehicle accidents plus predation and losses from sickness.
The point that you side-step, is that “exact” numbers are in no way needed.
Again, show me one state that has exact or accurate numbers………?
How about Steve Mohr, USP big wig, and former dissenting PGC Commissioner, admitting that the numbers are good?
What do you say about that?
Well actually I don’t expect you to even acknowledge that because you haven’t acknowledged any of the facts so far.
Yes, it is purely opinion. I also have attended many, many meetings and I live in the heart of deer country.
I talk to hunters who have great seasons and hunt on state lands. That is not to say “all” state lands carrying large herds, the point is to “reduce the herd” and it is working. I also talk to farmers and others around me who suffer losses from deer, and some who leave crops standing just for the deer. I see road kills every week here in the north.
Local businesses have been asking for help ever since the deer herd expanded into the southern counties and hunters no longer had to come north to find deer. In Renovo alone, I believe 3 major businesses pulled up stakes and moved out, making a big part of the population unemployed. A similar thing happened in Potter County.
But no one talks about that. It’s all the fault of the PGC that industry closed and moved and hunters found good hunting in the lower half of the state.
You sure weaseled around the deer-vehicle accidents statement. Now you want us to believe you only meant it to include metro areas???? Like you said, deer are deer no matter where they are, they contribute to “deer numbers.”
Sure, I’d be glad to tell you why other recreation is surpassing deer hunting. For a fact our population was 65% rural just 40 years ago. Now it is mostly urban, (cities). Add to that that the USP tries to convince the public that it isn't worth the time to hunt for deer. That is,"after" theyv'e filled "their" doe tags.
Those city people have no connection to the hunting, farming and harvesting traditions. When I was a kid there was no computers, very little TV, limited school sports, no such thing as a mall or arcade and if you didn’t go hunting you basically had no other activity to be involved in.
Heck we didn’t even have a telephone until I was 14 years old and a TV came when I was 15.
Maybe you don't realize that there was no such thing as a 4-wheeler, mountain bike,or dirt bikeback in the day?
You don’t want to argue! Heck no, you don’t want to “learn” because you want to blame someone else for your own short-comings.
Skip the challenge. I live in the extreme Northern Tier, just 27 miles from the Southern Tier of New York.
Those gripe sessions up here are attended by the same predictable group each and every time. Some have valid concerns and some just can’t handle the truth that “Herd Reduction” means fewer deer and that “all” science supports the need for it.
That would be due to the things you mentioned, poaching, vehicle accidents plus predation and losses from sickness.
The point that you side-step, is that “exact” numbers are in no way needed.
Again, show me one state that has exact or accurate numbers………?
How about Steve Mohr, USP big wig, and former dissenting PGC Commissioner, admitting that the numbers are good?
What do you say about that?
Well actually I don’t expect you to even acknowledge that because you haven’t acknowledged any of the facts so far.
Yes, it is purely opinion. I also have attended many, many meetings and I live in the heart of deer country.
I talk to hunters who have great seasons and hunt on state lands. That is not to say “all” state lands carrying large herds, the point is to “reduce the herd” and it is working. I also talk to farmers and others around me who suffer losses from deer, and some who leave crops standing just for the deer. I see road kills every week here in the north.
Local businesses have been asking for help ever since the deer herd expanded into the southern counties and hunters no longer had to come north to find deer. In Renovo alone, I believe 3 major businesses pulled up stakes and moved out, making a big part of the population unemployed. A similar thing happened in Potter County.
But no one talks about that. It’s all the fault of the PGC that industry closed and moved and hunters found good hunting in the lower half of the state.
You sure weaseled around the deer-vehicle accidents statement. Now you want us to believe you only meant it to include metro areas???? Like you said, deer are deer no matter where they are, they contribute to “deer numbers.”
Sure, I’d be glad to tell you why other recreation is surpassing deer hunting. For a fact our population was 65% rural just 40 years ago. Now it is mostly urban, (cities). Add to that that the USP tries to convince the public that it isn't worth the time to hunt for deer. That is,"after" theyv'e filled "their" doe tags.
Those city people have no connection to the hunting, farming and harvesting traditions. When I was a kid there was no computers, very little TV, limited school sports, no such thing as a mall or arcade and if you didn’t go hunting you basically had no other activity to be involved in.
Heck we didn’t even have a telephone until I was 14 years old and a TV came when I was 15.
Maybe you don't realize that there was no such thing as a 4-wheeler, mountain bike,or dirt bikeback in the day?
You don’t want to argue! Heck no, you don’t want to “learn” because you want to blame someone else for your own short-comings.
Skip the challenge. I live in the extreme Northern Tier, just 27 miles from the Southern Tier of New York.
Those gripe sessions up here are attended by the same predictable group each and every time. Some have valid concerns and some just can’t handle the truth that “Herd Reduction” means fewer deer and that “all” science supports the need for it.
09-16-2007, 02:52 PM
#65
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 9
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
ORIGINAL: NorthPA
Skip the challenge. I live in the extreme Northern Tier, just 27 miles from the Southern Tier of New York.
Those gripe sessions up here are attended by the same predictable group each and every time. Some have valid concerns and some just can’t handle the truth that “Herd Reduction” means fewer deer and that “all” science supports the need for it.
Skip the challenge. I live in the extreme Northern Tier, just 27 miles from the Southern Tier of New York.
Those gripe sessions up here are attended by the same predictable group each and every time. Some have valid concerns and some just can’t handle the truth that “Herd Reduction” means fewer deer and that “all” science supports the need for it.
09-16-2007, 06:26 PM
#66
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
well, anyway we look at it,pgc/dcnris doing what they want anyhow,right or wrong..
things are changing..
someone mentioned about deer will go way of buffalo,could be..
as deer get less MORE hunting time will happen to put pressure on few that are left in wmu 2g...
pgc will listen to hunters say no deer and no time to hunt enough, so they will extend seasons..
just opposite of what should happen...
i was out in my hunting area..
it was burned about 2 years ago but fire did not kill trees ,just burnt ground.
there was 5 deer in that area,they even bed down in it, growth is happening..
these same 3 were doe i left go last yearand 2 fawns this year...
CONTROLLED BURNS would make a big difference, if allowed..
DCNR is against this because it will kill a LIZARDS...
again, we get back to whats important,deer or lizards...
dcnr employees want it their way,MONEY/JOBS..
pgc their way money/jobs..
now pgc is run by people that are more for timber and less for deer..
money is in TIMBER..
anti-hunters are behind everything the dcnr does,look at money from antis that go to pgc/dcnr..
thats why they released FISCHERS ,it was given great publicly that they are introducing them back again..
well, later is made known that the penn state forestry and pgc felt that these critters would kill off the porcupines..
yes, porcupines were eating trees..
here we go again, TREES,MONEY...
did you know that fischers are killing fawns too!
well,i will be attending many meetings in next few months,1 is DCNR deer meeting on their MISSION..
i will go and listen and report back,i bet all i hear is this..
what about our ATV trails.
what about hiking trails...
what about turkey habitat...
what about canoeing...
what about elk...
what about horseback riding...
14 years ago a USP member, hestarted the group long ago, i know this fellow hunter,he is from TAMARACK,PA..
he got up at a deer meeting held at high school,i was there..
4 of us were to speak,at time i was not member of USP..
he started to speak and FARMERS booed him badly that he could not talk,they wanted all deer dead..
well,3 of my buddies who were to speak RAN out door scared of them, bunch of COWARDS..
i spoke then and said before i started, at least have respect to let me talk,stick your fingers in your ears if you dont want to hear me,well, they laughed and let me talk..
sorry i got off track again, my point is,we just dont have pull we did over years to stop what is happening and if hunters keep shooting doe that are left, it will continue to get a lot worst in areas that have FEW DEER..
things are changing..
someone mentioned about deer will go way of buffalo,could be..
as deer get less MORE hunting time will happen to put pressure on few that are left in wmu 2g...
pgc will listen to hunters say no deer and no time to hunt enough, so they will extend seasons..
just opposite of what should happen...
i was out in my hunting area..
it was burned about 2 years ago but fire did not kill trees ,just burnt ground.
there was 5 deer in that area,they even bed down in it, growth is happening..
these same 3 were doe i left go last yearand 2 fawns this year...
CONTROLLED BURNS would make a big difference, if allowed..
DCNR is against this because it will kill a LIZARDS...
again, we get back to whats important,deer or lizards...
dcnr employees want it their way,MONEY/JOBS..
pgc their way money/jobs..
now pgc is run by people that are more for timber and less for deer..
money is in TIMBER..
anti-hunters are behind everything the dcnr does,look at money from antis that go to pgc/dcnr..
thats why they released FISCHERS ,it was given great publicly that they are introducing them back again..
well, later is made known that the penn state forestry and pgc felt that these critters would kill off the porcupines..
yes, porcupines were eating trees..
here we go again, TREES,MONEY...
did you know that fischers are killing fawns too!
well,i will be attending many meetings in next few months,1 is DCNR deer meeting on their MISSION..
i will go and listen and report back,i bet all i hear is this..
what about our ATV trails.
what about hiking trails...
what about turkey habitat...
what about canoeing...
what about elk...
what about horseback riding...
14 years ago a USP member, hestarted the group long ago, i know this fellow hunter,he is from TAMARACK,PA..
he got up at a deer meeting held at high school,i was there..
4 of us were to speak,at time i was not member of USP..
he started to speak and FARMERS booed him badly that he could not talk,they wanted all deer dead..
well,3 of my buddies who were to speak RAN out door scared of them, bunch of COWARDS..
i spoke then and said before i started, at least have respect to let me talk,stick your fingers in your ears if you dont want to hear me,well, they laughed and let me talk..
sorry i got off track again, my point is,we just dont have pull we did over years to stop what is happening and if hunters keep shooting doe that are left, it will continue to get a lot worst in areas that have FEW DEER..
09-17-2007, 04:02 AM
#67
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
Pahick, I don’t see it as an argument. I see it as you making off the wall claims and accusations and me posting the fact and truth and you not wanting to face up to those.
I’ve provided all sorts of facts for you.
You accuse the PGC of guessing and yet you’re guessing at what the “majority” thinks.
If the majority is in agreement with you then why did the doe licenses sell out so fast in some WMU’S?
Why are license sales still strong, even though all across North America they have declined worst than here?
That should tell you that the “majority” still have a positive outlook and still want to hunt does.
A good look at how you think, is this ridiculous statement you made: “I simply cannot believe you live there, or even have any direct contact with the area. You sound more like a PGC employee than anything.”
You cannot believe it only because you “don’t want to believe it.”
If you are familiar with the Mansfield area, you only need to go a little further east to find me. My eye doctor is in Mansfield, (Stroehecker), I often eat breakfast at grandma’s in Mansfield, and sometimes lunch at the Vets Club in Troy. Warner tractor in E. Troy does the work on my track loader and backhoe. Oh yeah my log splitter is getting warranty work by the E. Smithfield Hardware right now.
I am not and have never been a PGC employee. For a while in the 70’s my attitude was just like yours is. I hunted hard and saw few deer for a few years in a row on SGL 12 and 36. I whined and complain and even wrote letters to the PGC. Then I “grew up” and learned a little bit about wildlife and hunting instead of relying on luck, at the same spot, all the time.
You really should make an effort to get away from your little circle of unhappy friends. Go to Judson’s Feed Mill in Columbia Crossroads and talk to those guys or to Columbia Crossroads Equipment, (My Massey Ferguson Tractor dealer) and ask those guys how the hunting is.
You’ll find that there are very many who support real deer management and who look forward to good hunting year after year.
Be the guy who has the stuff to actually look at both sides.
I’ve provided all sorts of facts for you.
You accuse the PGC of guessing and yet you’re guessing at what the “majority” thinks.
If the majority is in agreement with you then why did the doe licenses sell out so fast in some WMU’S?
Why are license sales still strong, even though all across North America they have declined worst than here?
That should tell you that the “majority” still have a positive outlook and still want to hunt does.
A good look at how you think, is this ridiculous statement you made: “I simply cannot believe you live there, or even have any direct contact with the area. You sound more like a PGC employee than anything.”
You cannot believe it only because you “don’t want to believe it.”
If you are familiar with the Mansfield area, you only need to go a little further east to find me. My eye doctor is in Mansfield, (Stroehecker), I often eat breakfast at grandma’s in Mansfield, and sometimes lunch at the Vets Club in Troy. Warner tractor in E. Troy does the work on my track loader and backhoe. Oh yeah my log splitter is getting warranty work by the E. Smithfield Hardware right now.
I am not and have never been a PGC employee. For a while in the 70’s my attitude was just like yours is. I hunted hard and saw few deer for a few years in a row on SGL 12 and 36. I whined and complain and even wrote letters to the PGC. Then I “grew up” and learned a little bit about wildlife and hunting instead of relying on luck, at the same spot, all the time.
You really should make an effort to get away from your little circle of unhappy friends. Go to Judson’s Feed Mill in Columbia Crossroads and talk to those guys or to Columbia Crossroads Equipment, (My Massey Ferguson Tractor dealer) and ask those guys how the hunting is.
You’ll find that there are very many who support real deer management and who look forward to good hunting year after year.
Be the guy who has the stuff to actually look at both sides.
09-17-2007, 04:03 AM
#68
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
Sproulman, your post simply is irrational and rambling. Anyone who can find a conspiracy in introducing "Fishers" to kill porcupines, because porcupines eat trees, has way too much of an imagination to deal with reality.
09-17-2007, 10:21 AM
#70
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: PA News - USP Files Permanent Injunction against PGC
ORIGINAL: NorthPA
Sproulman, your post simply is irrational and rambling. Anyone who can find a conspiracy in introducing "Fishers" to kill porcupines, because porcupines eat trees, has way too much of an imagination to deal with reality.
Sproulman, your post simply is irrational and rambling. Anyone who can find a conspiracy in introducing "Fishers" to kill porcupines, because porcupines eat trees, has way too much of an imagination to deal with reality.