anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
#81
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
And wouldn't this be exactly what I was talking abotu all along? A system like NJ where the local managers decide what style of management is needed for their own zone?
I agree there are some areas it may be beneficial, but keep the paitbrush narrow and where needed.
Steve
Steve
#82
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Phade, that's what I see. Is it everyone? No, of course not, but on the public land I hunt in the Catskills, most people are 1 day hunters. I stay two days and EVERY YEAR more than half the trucks are gone the second day of regular season. Thankfully, this year I get to hunt private land that my uncle bought.
FH, its simple economics, I don't see why the criticism. Do you pay to go to movies that suck? Do you go to sports games of teams you don't like? Do you donate money to charities which do things you don't agree with? No... so why would I waste my hard earned money for the chance to battle it out with 100 other guys for a spike when I can go to NJ and hunt state land without ever seeing another hunter?
In the last few years, I have gotten creative and picked out smaller plots of state land in different areas around NY and made little trips to them. Unfortunately though, it is not economical for me to scout them effectively enough, so I don't think this little plan is going to go anywhere.
Just like SteveNY's hunter who is happy shooting a spike every year in his examples, this hunter gets to choose how he spends his time and money also. And I am getting tired of wasting it.
FH, its simple economics, I don't see why the criticism. Do you pay to go to movies that suck? Do you go to sports games of teams you don't like? Do you donate money to charities which do things you don't agree with? No... so why would I waste my hard earned money for the chance to battle it out with 100 other guys for a spike when I can go to NJ and hunt state land without ever seeing another hunter?
In the last few years, I have gotten creative and picked out smaller plots of state land in different areas around NY and made little trips to them. Unfortunately though, it is not economical for me to scout them effectively enough, so I don't think this little plan is going to go anywhere.
Just like SteveNY's hunter who is happy shooting a spike every year in his examples, this hunter gets to choose how he spends his time and money also. And I am getting tired of wasting it.
#83
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,862
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Airborne, as others have told you. If you think NY is so bad then you should not hunt there at all. No one is forcing you to. I don't doubt that some of the antics you saw while hunting in NY are true, but surely NY is NOT the only state where such things happen. Unfortunately it happens in NJ, PA and any other state. You just probably were lucky never to see it in NJ while you were hunting there. Keep hunting there and I am sure it will catch up to you there also.
You sort of proved my point that it is way easier to hunt in NJ over NY since you seem to have no problem bagging deer in NJ while you have struck out 10 years in a row in NY. This is not because the herd is better managed there, but because the deer are in general living in a suburban habitat in close proximity to humans. A very unnatural habitat any way you want to look at it.
As far as public land in NY, I can only recommend that you find some private land to hunt. I know it is not easy to find these days, as it isn't in any state, but you have your own website and connections with other hunters, so I can't understand why that would be such a difficult undertaking for someone like you. You seem to have MORE of an advantage here than the rest of us, so don't judge the entire state by what you see on public land. I am sure if you were to hunt ALL the different public lands in NJ you would come to the same conclusions to bad hunter behavior that you saw in NY.
You sort of proved my point that it is way easier to hunt in NJ over NY since you seem to have no problem bagging deer in NJ while you have struck out 10 years in a row in NY. This is not because the herd is better managed there, but because the deer are in general living in a suburban habitat in close proximity to humans. A very unnatural habitat any way you want to look at it.
As far as public land in NY, I can only recommend that you find some private land to hunt. I know it is not easy to find these days, as it isn't in any state, but you have your own website and connections with other hunters, so I can't understand why that would be such a difficult undertaking for someone like you. You seem to have MORE of an advantage here than the rest of us, so don't judge the entire state by what you see on public land. I am sure if you were to hunt ALL the different public lands in NJ you would come to the same conclusions to bad hunter behavior that you saw in NY.
#84
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Phade, NY hunting license sales went DOWN from 2005/6 to 2006/7, both general licenses (down by 25,712) and Big Game (down 2,248). Further, this is a continuation of a long term trend.
Misinformation is a poison on credibility.
I would be interested in reading more about QDMA. Can anyone recommend a reasonably balanced source?
Misinformation is a poison on credibility.
I would be interested in reading more about QDMA. Can anyone recommend a reasonably balanced source?
#85
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
SteveBNy is on the mark. PA and NY two different animals. Hardly any of NY had PA's issues of massive overpopulation problems. Apples to Oranges for sure.
And I do not hunt any farms and am in central NY andwell over 60%of the 1.5 year old deer here are 6 points or better every year and I average about 150 inches of snow here. Up in the Adirondacks the deer have limited feed due to old growth forests and a lot of the 1.5 bucks would fall under 6 points but not anywhere else in the state.
Thanks for the broad painting that it is all drunks shooting at each other up here. Over 30 years hunting NY public land and yes I have seen a few slobs but nothing to your extreme. I must be lucky. After the first two days of the season and Thankgiving Day I hardly see anybody in the woods. Out of the millions of acres of public land there are plenty of spots to lose the crowd and the slobs. Go more than 100 feet from the road.
And I do not hunt any farms and am in central NY andwell over 60%of the 1.5 year old deer here are 6 points or better every year and I average about 150 inches of snow here. Up in the Adirondacks the deer have limited feed due to old growth forests and a lot of the 1.5 bucks would fall under 6 points but not anywhere else in the state.
Thanks for the broad painting that it is all drunks shooting at each other up here. Over 30 years hunting NY public land and yes I have seen a few slobs but nothing to your extreme. I must be lucky. After the first two days of the season and Thankgiving Day I hardly see anybody in the woods. Out of the millions of acres of public land there are plenty of spots to lose the crowd and the slobs. Go more than 100 feet from the road.
#86
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
So yourself and SteveB have the same contention about 60% of 1.5 year old bucks being six points or better.Steve indicates this is a fact supported by biologists,I gather your statement is based on your own observations which I respect,I have no knowledge of your area.I will tell you that that is not the case in the catskills based on my observations.
I don't understand the resistance to attempt to have everyone be pleased with their hunting experience.It is possible and without that much complexity.While you may be content and SteveB may be content with the present management practices I am not,and why should my interests or the many others who have similar feelings as my self be ignored?
I don't know how any one who spends any time thinking about it can support a management practice that targets so heavily a specific portion of an animal population,there is not a biologist in the country that would support that as being positive or beneficial for a population of animals.There should be a balance of animals across all age classes if you suggest otherwise please provide the science behind that assumption.
Being the most cutting or sarcastic or persistent doesn't give someone's contentions any more validity.
I am reminded of one of the most steadfast anti QDMA and AR participants on this site's words one time when talking about the possibility of an out of state hunt,he indicated he wouldn't shoot a 1.5 year old buck on an out of state hunt but he does it readily at home.Why do you think that out of state the opportunities exist to kill better bucks?Management practices support a more balanced herd and as a result of that hunters know that a much greater possibility exists to kill older/bigger bucks.
There is no reason that those things cannot exist here!
I don't understand the resistance to attempt to have everyone be pleased with their hunting experience.It is possible and without that much complexity.While you may be content and SteveB may be content with the present management practices I am not,and why should my interests or the many others who have similar feelings as my self be ignored?
I don't know how any one who spends any time thinking about it can support a management practice that targets so heavily a specific portion of an animal population,there is not a biologist in the country that would support that as being positive or beneficial for a population of animals.There should be a balance of animals across all age classes if you suggest otherwise please provide the science behind that assumption.
Being the most cutting or sarcastic or persistent doesn't give someone's contentions any more validity.
I am reminded of one of the most steadfast anti QDMA and AR participants on this site's words one time when talking about the possibility of an out of state hunt,he indicated he wouldn't shoot a 1.5 year old buck on an out of state hunt but he does it readily at home.Why do you think that out of state the opportunities exist to kill better bucks?Management practices support a more balanced herd and as a result of that hunters know that a much greater possibility exists to kill older/bigger bucks.
There is no reason that those things cannot exist here!
#87
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
ORIGINAL: farm hunter
Hey Phade -
Sure I realize Antler Restrictions is one tool that is possible in QDM. It in itself is not QDM - I do understand that - though people opposed to A/R often do not.
I support the idea if A/R, in lieu of a 3" antler minimum. I think it makes hunters be more sure of what they are taking, and helps to change the mindset of hunters, if they have to consider Antler points before pulling the trigger. Will yearling 7 pointers get taken..........YEP - and it will be legal and the hunter should get a pat on the back for making a good decision, he or she might be more proud of that seven point than 6 years of 4points in a row.
The way I see it, the law would "protect" 25% - 50% of yearling bucks no matter where you live. That same percentage would make up 1/3 of the harvest otherwise.............so more deer each year will live to see their Second Rack, etc. etc.
My understanding is that QDM backers that oppose a Point restrictions - favor a "width Minimum" for antlers. This might be a good rule for a hunt club - but I wouldn't want to see this law legislated as a statewide regulation. I think it would be too hard to adhere to - even if it is more effective.
I wouldn't care if we never had statewide regulations for bucks - if more deer were allowed to live past 1-1/2 years old. When 80% of your buck harvest is 1-1/2 years old or less.........Then the state is managing for Quantity - not Quality no matter what anyone else has to say about it.
So what do we do if we want more deer in each age class (QDM)- Here's the options:
1. Nothing - Lets leave things as they are - and harvest 80% of 1-1/2 year old bucks every year. Limit doe permits - so that we can boost the population to support this harvest.
2. Reduce the length of the regular firearms season to 5-7 days like many of the Mid Western states do. This would "protect" many more deer by default.
3. Change hunters mindset on what is deer is OK and desireable to harvest. How can we get more hunters to NOT WANT to shoot the first (or 2nd, or 3rd) yearling buck that happensby?
4. Keep the Gun hunting season long - and come up with another way to reduce the number of yearling bucks harvested - 1. Antler Restrictions, 2. Must harvest a doe before a buck tag is issued, etc. All are options.
In a nutshell this is what we are faced with - I favor Option 4 - because I like the long seasons - and the chances to hunt other areas. BUT - my next option would be #2 and reduce the gun season to a shorter one. Of course I hunt with bow & Blackpowder - so that option doesn't really bother me much.
FH
Hey Phade -
Sure I realize Antler Restrictions is one tool that is possible in QDM. It in itself is not QDM - I do understand that - though people opposed to A/R often do not.
I support the idea if A/R, in lieu of a 3" antler minimum. I think it makes hunters be more sure of what they are taking, and helps to change the mindset of hunters, if they have to consider Antler points before pulling the trigger. Will yearling 7 pointers get taken..........YEP - and it will be legal and the hunter should get a pat on the back for making a good decision, he or she might be more proud of that seven point than 6 years of 4points in a row.
The way I see it, the law would "protect" 25% - 50% of yearling bucks no matter where you live. That same percentage would make up 1/3 of the harvest otherwise.............so more deer each year will live to see their Second Rack, etc. etc.
My understanding is that QDM backers that oppose a Point restrictions - favor a "width Minimum" for antlers. This might be a good rule for a hunt club - but I wouldn't want to see this law legislated as a statewide regulation. I think it would be too hard to adhere to - even if it is more effective.
I wouldn't care if we never had statewide regulations for bucks - if more deer were allowed to live past 1-1/2 years old. When 80% of your buck harvest is 1-1/2 years old or less.........Then the state is managing for Quantity - not Quality no matter what anyone else has to say about it.
So what do we do if we want more deer in each age class (QDM)- Here's the options:
1. Nothing - Lets leave things as they are - and harvest 80% of 1-1/2 year old bucks every year. Limit doe permits - so that we can boost the population to support this harvest.
2. Reduce the length of the regular firearms season to 5-7 days like many of the Mid Western states do. This would "protect" many more deer by default.
3. Change hunters mindset on what is deer is OK and desireable to harvest. How can we get more hunters to NOT WANT to shoot the first (or 2nd, or 3rd) yearling buck that happensby?
4. Keep the Gun hunting season long - and come up with another way to reduce the number of yearling bucks harvested - 1. Antler Restrictions, 2. Must harvest a doe before a buck tag is issued, etc. All are options.
In a nutshell this is what we are faced with - I favor Option 4 - because I like the long seasons - and the chances to hunt other areas. BUT - my next option would be #2 and reduce the gun season to a shorter one. Of course I hunt with bow & Blackpowder - so that option doesn't really bother me much.
FH
They in turn believe in #3, but trying to educate people into what deer to harvest is ideal. It is effective, as seen in the growing number of QDM followers and practioners. I believe #3 is the way to go, without legislation/regulation/a seperating issue on all of NY's hunters. Education is key.
I think the points-based A/R has its biological holes, and simply is not a fair way to determine what is best for everyone/thing deer and hunters included.
Management of the deer herd is there, but the DEC also states they seek to meet the needs/desires of hunters as well. They do that because hunters are the #1 management tool. Right now, I think it best to consider an educational movement before jumping ship into a big ocean.
In regards to #2, shortening the season. I think it should be a 14-day season, for modern gun. However, #2 will not protect the younger bucks at all. In fact, it may INCREASE the % of younger deer harvested. NY DEC Central Deer Biologist Jeremy Hurst and I regularly speak on articles I write. He's told methe large majority (I forget the % but it is in the 80% area) of those younger deer are taken within the first 48-72 hours of the season. It wouldn't make such alarge dent as toproduce a noticeable difference in shortening the season, since only 20% of younger deer that are harvested are taken in the remaining 20-21 days of our current season.
I think 2 bucks on tags, for the combo of seasons. Either doen like this...1st buck can be taken at any moment. After that 1st buck is harvested, a doe must be harvested (considering DMP info) before the 2nd buck can be taken.
OR
1 must be any length of antler, and one must be 4 points or larger on one side. That, to me, would be a compromise in the middle of the road. That would suffice the "few day a year hunters" and those who want to target larger bucks.
#88
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
ORIGINAL: fishdog52
Phade, NY hunting license sales went DOWN from 2005/6 to 2006/7, both general licenses (down by 25,712) and Big Game (down 2,248). Further, this is a continuation of a long term trend.
Misinformation is a poison on credibility.
I would be interested in reading more about QDMA. Can anyone recommend a reasonably balanced source?
Phade, NY hunting license sales went DOWN from 2005/6 to 2006/7, both general licenses (down by 25,712) and Big Game (down 2,248). Further, this is a continuation of a long term trend.
Misinformation is a poison on credibility.
I would be interested in reading more about QDMA. Can anyone recommend a reasonably balanced source?
#89
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,862
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
I am reminded of one of the most steadfast anti QDMA and AR participants on this site's words one time when talking about the possibility of an out of state hunt,he indicated he wouldn't shoot a 1.5 year old buck on an out of state hunt but he does it readily at home.Why do you think that out of state the opportunities exist to kill better bucks?Management practices support a more balanced herd and as a result of that hunters know that a much greater possibility exists to kill older/bigger bucks.
Antler restriction or QDM programs are simply the brainchild of biologists who were hired by trophy hunters to try to concoct a program that might get deer to get a bit older so the trophy hunters can have an easier time bagging them. That is all it is. Antler size means nothing in terms of managing a deer herd in general. For example. When a buck breeds a doe in his first year when he is maybe a spike, is he or is he NOT passing on the same genetics that he would be in three years when he might be an 8 point? So what is the difference then if he is shot the first year or the third or fourth other than to trophy hunters who prefer a bigger rack? There really isn't any difference. In fact a claim could be made that the buck will start passing on bad traits in older age, just as humans do when they have children in older age. For studies have been done that both men and women can pass on traits in older age that can cause things like down syndrome, autism and varies other things.
#90
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
This is getting to be a bit much! I have hunted in Idaho for 10 years consecutively and will be out there this fall.I know you can shoot whatever you choose in most states and have said time and time again that antler restrictions are not "the answer" but a different approach that without question will allow a greater amount of 1.5 year old bucks to go forward in to their second year.Please prove to me that that is not true!
There is no question that that hunter density and the vastness and difficulty of a region influence the age class of animals that reside there I have never said otherwise and have in fact said exactly that on a number of occaisions.
I cannot speak for Montana aside from the knowledge that I have that it is a draw whitetail tag and you can draw approximately one out of three years unless you are hunting with an outfitter and purchase a guaranteed tag through them.I don't know what Montana's tag permits as far as gender,whether it is an either sex tag.I don't know how many deer can be taken as a resident hunter out there.
I do know that in Idaho as a resident or non resident one deer of either sex and you are done.If there are non resident tags left a resident or non resident can purchase another tag.Needless to say unless you are an outlaw one or two deer and you are done.The consensus out there is you either shoot a nice buck or you shoot a doe.Of course there are exceptions to this but they are just thatexceptions.
New York will grow big deer if they are given the chance to age,there are countless examples of that in all regions of the state.The genetic theory that you suggest is understood and not without some merit,with the exception that as a buck grows older it's breeding tendencies lesson.They become more concerned with survival than breeding,the majority of breeding is done by mature but younger animals.So nature has a way to protect the liklihood of the inferior genes going forward,again there are exceptions to this but they are just that exceptions.
There is no question that that hunter density and the vastness and difficulty of a region influence the age class of animals that reside there I have never said otherwise and have in fact said exactly that on a number of occaisions.
I cannot speak for Montana aside from the knowledge that I have that it is a draw whitetail tag and you can draw approximately one out of three years unless you are hunting with an outfitter and purchase a guaranteed tag through them.I don't know what Montana's tag permits as far as gender,whether it is an either sex tag.I don't know how many deer can be taken as a resident hunter out there.
I do know that in Idaho as a resident or non resident one deer of either sex and you are done.If there are non resident tags left a resident or non resident can purchase another tag.Needless to say unless you are an outlaw one or two deer and you are done.The consensus out there is you either shoot a nice buck or you shoot a doe.Of course there are exceptions to this but they are just thatexceptions.
New York will grow big deer if they are given the chance to age,there are countless examples of that in all regions of the state.The genetic theory that you suggest is understood and not without some merit,with the exception that as a buck grows older it's breeding tendencies lesson.They become more concerned with survival than breeding,the majority of breeding is done by mature but younger animals.So nature has a way to protect the liklihood of the inferior genes going forward,again there are exceptions to this but they are just that exceptions.