SteveBNy

Case can't be that strong then.

Steve

farm hunter

Steve - I know you know this topic well - I've read many a post over the years form you. I don't disagree with everything you say - BUT - I don't agree with you that the status quo is the way to go.

Consider this -

The number of hunters in NY is going DOWN and will continue to as the baby boomer Generation ages. You know as well as I, that means less hunters will have to harvest MORE deer...........or............we need to lower the deer population overall.

Either way - Statewide, we'll have to shoot MORE Does - not less, and eventually manage a smaller herd. We can do this in the short term by just issuing more doe permits. But AR proponents are suggesting that a BETTER way to go - might be to CHANGE the mindset of the avg hunter. Abolish the thought that"does are sacred". And get more people thinking about filling the freezer with a doe rather than a young buck.

Personally - My support for ARs have nothing to do with taking a trophy deer - I'm not a trophy hunter at all. I do however very much like the Idea of a Balanced Deer Herd - with more deer in every age class. I too - like the idea of a more diverse enviroment, with animal and plant species maximized for a givenenvironment.

Its Biodiveristy - and that is what is fueling the Scientific Support of Statewide managent programs Like QDM.There may well be added benefits for deer hunters (like increased doe harvest and some bucks with larger antlers) as a result. However, It proves nothingto point to the BEST Examples of deer taken in NY and proclaim that the current system is not broken.

I'll get off my soapbox - and I'll ask that before you "box quote" me (I thought only ATLASMAN did that) - that you consider the folks in the DEC - and where they've gotten their education. I can tell you for sure - they are NOT learning that the Staus Quo in NY is OK - and eventually they will change the managment program, such as it is.

My suggestion to you, and to others - would be to find out what other options for change are out there if you are so dead set against AR - because I'm telling you - I don't think I'm the only one that is convinced tha MAJOR CHANGES are coming in how NY Manages their deer.

OK?

FH

tsoc

It is remarkable to me how much some folks fear change! We are very fortunate even with our sometimes limited management permit drawings to be able to hunt every year.As one gentleman said there are some states where you go multiple years and not be able to hunt a species,as a resident.If someone has the desire to muzzleloader hunt the expense to take it up is not out of reach for many.The learning curve is very fast,for the most part inlines are single shot rifles for 100 yards.
Unfortunately left to our resources most of us don't manage our deer very well.There is one regular poster who typically get's aggressive in these conversations who had a hard time finding deer either last year or the year before.He went on to say that he filled every one of his tags any way.If the deer numbers are down in your hunting area's why wouldn't you take it upon yourself and go easy on them,purchasing the tag was the justification,what about common sense?
There are so many states that are managing much more favorably than ours.I believe between the new breed of biologists that we seem to be getting and folks who want to see different management practices positive things will take place.
Those who accuse selective buck hunters as being selfish,lazy or greedy,I believe in most instances have it the other way around.A selective hunter is far more willing to not kill,than those from the if it is brown it is down crowd.
I am pleased about the change and hope more are implemented as time goes on.

SteveBNy

Before I reply, I let small bucks walk by CHOICE - and shoot all the does I can legally that the herd will support in my area.
I encourage others to do the same IF they hunt in areas similar to mine.

I box quote only to make sure that it is understood where my reply is directed.

(Nonbox reply):
Hunter numbers will go down?
Then lets expend our energy and clout by lowering the entry age. NY has the highest - despicable.

More does will need to be shot by fewer hunters?
I listed the area where few or no permits will be available.
Combine this with points based AR/TM and you will lose even more hunters cause there is nothing for them to hunt.

Does are sacred?
Why do many posters ask to stop the reasignment of dmp tags?
Why not issue the tags to those willing to use them - this is the 5th year in a row I have only "won" one tag in dmu's listed as high 1st, med 2nd.
They are not so sacred that in many dmu's there will be few or none shot.
Hunters in these areas will not have the option of filling the freezer with a doe as you suggest.

Many here are saying there is something wrong statewide that needs to be changed. I am saying you cannot look satewide and see this.One poster says he has never seen anything bigger then a spike - therefore the whole state needs AR!!! Too many are like this - look out there back window (figurativly) and base their support of AR/tm on that.

No one has offered support for the opinion that things are so bad that AR/tm is needed statewide.
No, instead I get comments like Scott's above suggesting I am anti AR because I fear change!!
Back up the reasons for the need for mandatory ar and/or change with real data and not opinions and you will win more support then telling me I fear your opinions.
Show me how points based AR will yeild anything positive in the ares of CNY where 60 % 1 1/2 bucks (figure from a dec biologist) are 6 point or better.

FH - I have seen enough of your posts to believe you seek more the TM. But the majority who support AR with you come across as having no motivation for the change they seek other then wanting it easier to take slightly bigger bucks (anything less then a 5 year old). Until this perception of their motivation can be changed by offering more then diner fueled opinion, resistance to the limited vision change they seek will remain and grow.

Steve

SteveBNy

I do have an idea that maybe both pro and anti could work on as an area for compromise.

Most, if not all, can agree that the most important thing in managing the herd should be population balanced to the habitat available.
The best way to do this is by removing the proper number of does.
The problem with this is that statistics show that as many as 1/3 of the "does" shot are actually bucks (BB's)!!
Would not working on a way to significantly lower this % yeild the results being sought by AR proponents?

Food for thought.

Steve

Tom_L

Yes - very good point. I do wonder how this would happen in the field. I once shot a button buck that I thought was a doe (and I find does much better eating, that last thing I wanted was a button buck).

Sometimes it is hard to tell, even under good circumstances.

Maybe keep the definition of a legal antlered deer the same (one antler at 3 inches), but change antlerless regulations?

farm hunter

Steve - good post & good points.

I too pass up younger bucks most of the time. And I take does where I can with Blackpowder of bow - and occaisianally I'll get a DMP for 7M. I understand that with the way the system is now, its frustrating not getting a DMP for your area, it happens to me more often than not. We are somewhat handicapped in how muchwe personally can manage our local herd based on the current regs.

You and I agree on this point -
We differ on what to do about it -

What I think, is that if our GENERAL managment system was changed that made less bucks available to harvest(examples: A/R, Shorter Gun Season for bucks, shoot a doe first,etc.) thenwe would have more opprotunities to harvest Doe in the regular season. More bucks would survive to the older age classes, and the total deer population would be reduced to meet our forward goals.

I think this is why we see the state looking at a few "test areas" - and it may well be that it will never be a statewide program. (eg. not much sense in lowering deer populations in the Main Adirondaks!) Still I think there will be some sweeping changes, as concerned hunters - we should understand what the DEC's goals are, keep an open mind, and engage in informed, productive dialog with our fellow hunters.

Like I said before - I know you are up to speed on this topic, but for those that think A/R is about growing trophy bucks, then they need to learn more about the concept of QDM.

As far as shooting button bucks - Fawns basically exist in equal numbers male/female. Generally they are harvested in similar proprtions - so in a managment sense their harvest does not change the Male:Female proportion of the herd. They are tagged as "antlerless deer"so we can error on the side of caution when considering managment options.

tsoc

My comments were not solely directed at you Steve.You are absolutely right that management should be location specific.There are some area's that because of the hunter population and the other variables such as the deer density and the terrain makeup where different measures may be called for,if any at all.
A lot of my feelings come from my own experience in the woods in the area's I hunt as well as witnessing the dynamics of the deer kill in my area.Our 1.5 year old bucks prior to antler restriction got hammered,I have many days while either on stand archery hunting or covering many miles on foot rifle hunting where I would see 15 to 20 does and not see a buck.I have walked miles and miles as well and gone through entire seasons without seeing a scrape.To me that is indicative of a severely unbalanced herd.
I am not certain if your comments about either opinions or some guy in a diner were directed toward me.I assure you that I am both knoweldgeable as a feet on the ground hunter and from a research perspective.I claim no superiority to others and am always willing to listen to others points of view.
I do know what I see and I trust what I see.I have absolutely no doubt that NYS can manage better.Shorter rifle seasons,either gender tags as your primary rifle season tags,earn a buck programs.Antler restrictions are not a panacea,there are many states that do a great job without them,so perhaps we can learn something from them and follow there lead.
For me antler restrictions represent not doing things the way they have always been done before,a movement to perhaps more thoughtful management.Would any one question that if hunters in their regular day to day travels were seeing more and bigger bucks than they had ever seen before that that would not contribute to increased license sales and enthusiasm?
I am not looking to be argumentative with any one or insult any one! Sometimes starting a converasation or debate about a topic leads to something productive because of the increased focus.I hope that is the case with all of us and the DEC!

mlo31351270

Good posts farm hunterand tsoc.

Exactly my thoughts! I have said this before.

Steve, We all understand what you are saying here and agree. Most pro AR hunters posting here are from a different part of the state. That gives me a sence AR's would be good for alot of areas. I think that we all agree that changes should be made per WMU, but it would be hard to enforce laws with so many differnt WMU's.

Airborneguy

mlo31351270, NJ doeszone by zone just fine. Every year, they release a Regulation Book covering the different regulation sets. They have zones which then fall into certain regulation sets. The season dates, lengths, takes, and restrictions can be changed every year based on the needs of that zone and set. It works great.

tsoc just brought up a great point also.. other than in small areas, I have not seen scrapes and rubs either throughout most of my NY hunting. When I hunt Jersey, I see them everywhere. For the first time last year, I even got to see bucks fighting, and heard 2 more fights from a distance. I see actual bachelor groups also.

Anyone can question my time in the woods, but that is just a side point to a good conversation, which was my argument above. Let's talk the issue, not other bull. Something must be up when with all my time in the woods (at least one day every weekend from Sept-Feb), I am only seeingtextbook deer activity in, basically, an urban setting. Some of the spots I hunt in Jersey are 10 acres! And they are full of rubs, scrapes, and deer!

And that was me who mentioned the western states and their management styles. I think NY is one of the most loose with its management, WE BASICALLYNEVER HADANY!! You can go years without hutning your own home state out west unless a landowner gives you one of their managment permits or you get a leftover doe/cow tag for a worthless zone.

And as far as NY losing hunters, count this one, because I have steadily been moving my hunting to NJ in the last few years. I see more deer, bigger deer, and deer which can be patterned because they actually ACT LIKE DEER. Scouting is worthwhile and fruitfull, and all of this with much cheaper gas.

My main point is that I don't see how NO MANAGMENT (the status quo) is better, and how when almost every state has some form of managment going on, how NY's is the best. To me, we have a throwback going on to when the majority of people upstate needed deer meat to survive... is this the case now, I highly doubt it. Let's manage the herd in a more modern way... LIKE MOST OTHER STATES ALREADY DO.